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Old 05-24-2013, 08:18   #1
Ghost44
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Clays load for Glock 21 ?

I'm a (gonna be) new Glock 21 owner. (In fact I will pick it up next week) I currently reload my own .45 for bullseye shooting.
I like using Hogdon Clays powder. I also understand I need to use a FMJ bullet (not hard cast) in the Glock. Can I get some recommendations for a Clays load for IDPA / combat shooting? (gr., bullet wt., type, OAL, crimp size)
Thanks
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Old 05-24-2013, 18:37   #2
man.cave
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I do use clays for 45 acp, but I shoot 9mm for IDPA, not sure my load would work for you.
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Old 05-26-2013, 20:01   #3
jmccauley
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My Personal load is 3.8 grains of Clays under 230 Grain Zero FMJ Coal 1.230 Meets power factor, relatively clean and soft shooter. Works great in My Gen3 21 and my 1911.

Last edited by jmccauley; 05-26-2013 at 20:02..
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:50   #4
Ghost44
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Thanks very much for your reply.
In fact I load 3.8 gr of Clays under a 200 S&S LSWC for my
bullseye shooting in my Springfield 1911.
It looks like I'll try 4 gr of Clays under a 250gr FMJ Berrys Bullet.
Thanks again
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:09   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost44 View Post
Thanks very much for your reply.
In fact I load 3.8 gr of Clays under a 200 S&S LSWC for my
bullseye shooting in my Springfield 1911.
It looks like I'll try 4 gr of Clays under a 250gr FMJ Berrys Bullet.
Thanks again
The .45 acp has a standardized profile. By that, I mean that the external dimensions of the round are fix so that it runs consistently in the John Browning pistol.

So, when you go to a heavier bullet, the extra mass has to GO DOWN INTO THE CASE. This makes the case volume significantly less with heavier bullets than with a lighter, say 200 grain bullet.

The volume of the .45 acp case is very limited to begin with. It was, of course, minimized to perform it's primary function of being a side arm used in combat.

I recently switched to a heavier bullet in the .45 acp and was really surprised at the dramatic increase in pressure and velocity when I used the same charge with the heavier bullet that I had been using with the 200 grain. I've been climbing back down that tree in increments since then. Many trips to the range with the chronograph to get things back to normal.

I'm sure you get the point. Really reduce your charge weight when moving to a heavier bullet in this round. There just is not a lot of room (literally) for error in the .45 acp.

While increasing the bullet weight by 25%, you're probably halving the case volume since all that mass has to go into the case. 250 grains is a VERY big bullet for the Automatic Colt's Pistol round.

Be careful out there.
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Old 05-27-2013, 14:20   #6
man.cave
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typically the heavier the bullet in a rd, the less powder you use. I say typically, but I mean almost always, I haven't run across a load where that wasn't true.
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Old 05-27-2013, 21:06   #7
OrGlocker
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I use 3.8 grains of Clays in my Sig P220 with a 200 grain LSWC with no problems.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:08   #8
Ghost44
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It looks like the 3.8 of Clays under a 200 gr LSWC and 4 under a 230 gr FMJ are very doable according to the Hogdon load data site. I'll probably start with the 3.8 gr of Clays under the 230 gr FMJ. Thank you to everyone for the great input.
See table below for load data from the Hogdon website -


Cartridge:
45 ACP
Load Type:
Pistol
Starting Loads
Maximum Loads

Bullet Wt / Type
Powder
Bullet Dia.
COL
Powder Grains
Velocity
Pressure
Powder Grains
Velocity
Pressure
200 Gr Cast LSWC
Hogdon Clays
.451
1.225
3.6
759
11,800 cup
4.3
888
17,000 cup
230 Gr HDY FMJ FP
Hogdon Clays
.451
1.200
3.7
670
15,900 cup
4.0
732
17,700 cup
230 Gr LRN
Hogdon Clays
.452
1.200
3.5
716
13,700 cup
4.0
793
16,800 cup
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:15   #9
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You mentioned IDPA competition. If you want to shoot 'minor' (and you probably don't), you need a Power Factor of 125. For 'major', you need a power factor of 165.

Power Factor is bullet weight in grains times velocity in feet per second, all divided by 1000.

A 230 gr bullet only needs to go 717 fps out of a firearm with the maximum barrel length for the class, not necessarily your barrel. 200 gr LSWC only needs to go 825 fps

I would want to have a measured velocity of about 740 fps for the 230 gr or 850 fps for the 200 gr LSWC to guarantee I pass the chronograph test. Again, from a barrel with the maximum length for the class.

BTW, the idea of shooting lead bullets in Glock barrels is discusse every month or so. There is no real consensus (in my view) but a large number of shooters are doing it every day. On a very slow bullet like the .45 ACP at gamer velocities, I don't think you will ever see leading. That could depend on powder but I use 700-X which is only a couple of entries slower than Clays. I decided to err on the side of 'I don't want to have to check my barrel every time I go shooting' and installed a KKM barrel. The difference in bullet cost between jacketed and lead will eventually pay for the barrel. And I don't have to think about leading vs Glock barrels.

There are a lot of reloaders who would recommend staying away from fast powders for two reasons: First, fast powders don't leave much room for error. A little goes a long way toward kaboom. Second, fast powders generally don't fill the case very much and it is more difficult to spot a double charge. The double charge won't overflow the case.

There's another reason to use a slower powder: It is easier to get to higher velocities. Check any reloading manual and you will see that slower powders usually achieve the higher velocities, subject to having enough barrel length to burn the powder.

Richard
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Last edited by F106 Fan; 05-28-2013 at 08:16..
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:37   #10
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I just ordered (they had them in stock believe it or not) 250 Berry plated230gr bullets from Cabela's. I will shoot them up in short order and then takeRichards advice and get an aftermarket barrel and then shoot my standard S&S 200Gr LSWC.

I have a few lbs. of Clays so I’ll stick with that for now.

Thanks again to all but especially to 3 5 7 and F106 Fan for your detailedinformation. It was a great help.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:34   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost44 View Post
I just ordered (they had them in stock believe it or not) 250 Berry plated230gr bullets from Cabela's. I will shoot them up in short order and then takeRichards advice and get an aftermarket barrel and then shoot my standard S&S 200Gr LSWC.

I have a few lbs. of Clays so I’ll stick with that for now.

Thanks again to all but especially to 3 5 7 and F106 Fan for your detailedinformation. It was a great help.
Seriously, just for giggles, shoot the S&S 200 gr LSWC in the Glock barrel. I did! That is my preferred bullet at the moment.

I had no leading whatsoever. I had no reason at all to change barrels other than the admonition from Glock re: lead projectiles. Why I lent more credence to that than their more general statement re: not using reloads at all, I don't know.

I guess I read where people were cleaning their barrels every 500 rounds or so and I figured that I could shoot more than that in a single trip and I couldn't see having to clean the barrel half way through a day.

Get a Lewis Lead Remover from Brownell's. It makes it easy to see if leading is present because the lead flakes show up against the bronze screen.

http://www.brownells.com/search/inde...over&ksubmit=y

Check after 20, 50, 100, etc just to see how it works out. You might be surprised. Besides, the Lead Remover is cheaper than a new barrel.

Ultimately, I changed the barrel and you will probably do the same. But if you already have some 200 gr LSWC, why not at least see how they work out? Kind of an experiment...

EDIT: And I highly recommend the KKM barrel. Do some searching of this forum for a truly epic rant re: LWD barrels and lead reloads. I don't know anything about the issue so I don't really have any input but I personally bought the KKM. No regrets!

Richard
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Old 05-28-2013, 13:35   #12
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The issue w/ Clays, it spikes at higher pressures. So it's not a good choice for anything but minor loads in anything, even 45acp. You can't make IDPA major w/ Clays safely IMO w/ a 200gr bullet. You can just get there w/ a 230gr bullet, but not a 200gr. You need 730fps w/ a 230gr, that is pretty tight, not much margin for error. When Clays gets to the top end, it can spike w/ just 1/10gr more or a bullet setback.
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Old 05-28-2013, 13:53   #13
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Fredj338,

OK now I get it. Thanks for the excellent tutorial. I'll use the data yousupplied to find a "slower" powder.
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Old 05-28-2013, 13:59   #14
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I'm a bit disappointed in this thread; when a saw the title I thought you were going to be shooting skeet with a G-21....

I can't offer you any handloading advice, but best wishes, and good look at your match.
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Old 05-28-2013, 14:16   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost44 View Post
Fredj338,

OK now I get it. Thanks for the excellent tutorial. I'll use the data yousupplied to find a "slower" powder.
And this is where everybody jumps in with "Unique!".

When you look at powder versus velocity, look for one that extends well beyond your range of interest. Maybe try to keep your target velocity in the middle of the range. That way you have a bit of margin for powder measure variations.

Actually, Unique is a pretty good choice, especially for the 200 gr bullet. Win 231 or HP 38 are also useful. The same logic that says stay away from Clays (because it is a fast powder) probably applies to Bullseye and Titegroup as well.

I would expect Unique to be reasonably available at LGSs. I don't see it at Powder Valley yet but I'm pretty sure my LGS had some.

I am using the very slow WSF for .40 S&W. So far, it seems to work very well.

It's fun to play with the data at Hodgdon. Select a cartridge and then select a bullet weight to get all of the possible loadings for Hodgdon powders:
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Separate out all the 'fast' powders and see what you can do with what's left. Don't go too slow or all you will get is high velocity loads, even on the MIN side.

Richard
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Old 05-28-2013, 15:08   #16
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Not all fast or uberfast powders (faster than W231) have pressures spikes. Some do though, so you have to be careful exceeding top end loads. With some powders, no such thing as a little over, Clays is one.
Medium burners react diff at the top end than most faster powders. So pressures can still go up in a linear fashion. Why many of us recommend medium burners for noobs, but there are some user friendly faster powders.
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