GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-17-2013, 09:42   #21
Cali-Glock
Mountain Man
 
Cali-Glock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: California Sierra Mnts
Posts: 11,956
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall View Post
Neighborhood on fire.
+1 I buged out for the 1990 Painted Cave (Santa Barbara) fire. It was a wild experience. The fire bisected Goleta and Santa Barbara; you could not get from one place to the other.

We went to a friend's house and then I ran to the grocery store - all bottle water and many other supplies had been sold out in a matter of hours. Quite a learning experience.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

I may be from Cali, but I ain't no yankee!

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one." - Mal Reynolds
Cali-Glock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 11:15   #22
FerFAL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid View Post
In what cases would you bug out? Can you give me an example?

I can only think of hurricane.
Lets see,
Fire, your house burning down, happens all the time adn if you're even there you have only seconds before it burns down on you.
Natural disasters such as floods, earthquakes, also hurricane, tornado, tsunami. Wildfires. Any of these could force you to evacuate.
Industrial disasters, chemical spills.
Sociopolitical and economic degradation. A neighborhood, state or entire country becoming too dangerous or too poor for you to stay in it.
Politicial, idiological, ethnic and religious persecution.
War, both foreign invasion or civil war.

Bugging out isnt a choice as an alternative to bugging out. Bugging out is what you do when staying isnt an option any more.
FerFAL
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
FerFAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 15:31   #23
Stupid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,791
All of these examples can be taken care with $5000 cash on hand, no?
Stupid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 15:45   #24
mac66
Plant the seed
 
mac66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Save America
Posts: 7,892
Vacation
__________________
Every American a Rifleman

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
mac66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 18:46   #25
bmoore
Senior Member
 
bmoore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Under a regime.
Posts: 4,492
Wildfires and earthquakes for me. Either way I will be at work or being mandatory called back.
__________________
RIP Okie
bmoore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 18:49   #26
Aceman
Senior Member
 
Aceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa
Posts: 6,550
Heads up time is lways a factor;

Earthquake is zero
Fire could be none to considerable
Hurricane is days
Aceman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 20:37   #27
pugman
Senior Member
 
pugman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 6,216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Being wanted by law enforcement or on the wrong side of a civil war.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
Quote:
Originally Posted by kirgi08 View Post
Social/Economic.'08.
About the only two I can think of.

As much as I hate the state of Wisconsin there are some advantages...

Hurricanes in the last ten years....0
Earthquakes....I haven't heard of any
Wildfires in the last ten years....0
Nuclear Plants....only active one is 150 miles east and the primary winds blow east

However, I live on the 94EW corridor and our McDonalds is infamous as a stopping point for travelers. Right off the interstate, easy on/off and a midway point from Milwaukee/Madison. I could see folks getting stuck here and this town is clueless on how to maintain order if it happened.
__________________
Now when asked when I think things will change I answer "The next time Thomas (aka the fed) robs Peter (aka the 53%) to pay Paul (aka the 47%) and Peter pulls a gun...things will change"

Last edited by pugman; 05-17-2013 at 20:37..
pugman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 20:42   #28
ChuteTheMall
HildabeastHater
 
ChuteTheMall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Anti-Obamaville
Posts: 60,448


Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid View Post
In what cases would you bug out? Can you give me an example?

.
Mother in law visits.
__________________
"He said he fired a burst at the chest and if they didn't fall fast enough, he fired a burst at the face. He never needed to reload and had enough on board so if he missed a shot or two he could catch up in the fight. " -Gabe Suarez, 2008
ChuteTheMall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 21:05   #29
thetoastmaster
NOT a sheepdog!
 
thetoastmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: One Nation, Under Surveillance
Posts: 5,274
Send a message via ICQ to thetoastmaster Send a message via AIM to thetoastmaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid View Post
All of these examples can be taken care with $5000 cash on hand, no?
That's a good point. To me, an INCH situation is not a bug-out. That is, I separate them. If I am never coming home I will need a lot more stuff than I can fit in a BOB or three-day bag. A bug-out means that I am coming home. It's temporary. Money may or may not be of value. In a post-Katrina situation the price of goods and services may greatly exceed my cash on hand. I may have to drive further, or in a different direction, to get what my family needs.

In an INCH scenario, such as the more drastic listed above, well, I'll really have to make sure I have a copy of my insurance policies...
__________________
This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense,
The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental.

- John Steinbeck

2+2≠4!
thetoastmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-17-2013, 21:06   #30
JAS104
NRA Life Member
 
JAS104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 2,924
Tag


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
__________________
Think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?
JAS104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 04:24   #31
FerFAL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid View Post
All of these examples can be taken care with $5000 cash on hand, no?
It depends. In some cases its just a matter of leaving for a few days and staying at family or friends. If your house burned down and you either dont have insurnace, that particular disaster isnt covered or you did something that voided your contract, then you're looking at spending a LOT of money to get back on your feet. So it could be a BO scenario where you spend nothing, or it culd be one that costs you hundreds of thousands to recover from.
You evcuate due to storm/flood warnings. The guy that has a pace to stay may spend little or nothing, the guy that has to find a hotel to stay in may end up spending hundreds of dollars. Then again there may be no hotel rooms left due to everyone doing the same thing. This means a) PAying for a more expensive room b) having to travel further way, more gas, more traveling.
Depending on the event you may not now how long it will be before you come back. If you are leaving due to escalating civil unrest and that evolves into a full blown socioeconomic collapse of the country you may chose to never come back. Same for ethnic or religious persecution.
Bugging Out Aborad is a bit harder on your pocket. 5000 bucks is barely covering a family's plane ticket expenses, and that's if you leave i tiem, beofre you have to start bribing your way out of it. During the Bosnia war, you were looking at 10.000 USD per person to buy your way out of sieged Sarajevo, surrounded by Serbian forces.
Getting settled abroad also costs money, adding another 30.000 USD or so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetoastmaster View Post
That's a good point. To me, an INCH situation is not a bug-out. That is, I separate them. If I am never coming home I will need a lot more stuff than I can fit in a BOB or three-day bag. A bug-out means that I am coming home. It's temporary. Money may or may not be of value. In a post-Katrina situation the price of goods and services may greatly exceed my cash on hand. I may have to drive further, or in a different direction, to get what my family needs.

In an INCH scenario, such as the more drastic listed above, well, I'll really have to make sure I have a copy of my insurance policies...
Sometimes you can't tell for sure if you're coming back or not. In some cases you have a better idea, but even with natural disasters you may not have a home left to come back to!
I've been writing a lot about this topic lately and I'm not much of a believer of having ten thousand diferent bags, like BOB, INCH, GHB and TSBTGMBFTG. "The survival bag to get me back from the gym". Its as if marketing has taken over survivalism and there's more bug out bags, or survival emergency bags than there is purse or shoe designers. We just have BOB, and a small traveling bag with our passports, cash stash and other documents, that always goes along with it.
Why have it in a sepratate (and much smaller docuement bag)? Becuase if the house is burning down or similar imminent threat and I dont have time or I cant carry a BOB with me, becasue theres no time, becuase I'm wounded or I have to help or carry a family member, then that's the bag I'm trying to get out of the house if at all possible.
When I left my home knowing fully well I was never coming back, what I needed the most, what we couldnt have done without was in my jacket's pocket: Plane tickets, cash & credit cards, USB drive in my keychain with essential data and our passports. Anything else could be improvised or bought back. Everything else, the suitcases with clothings, our wedding photo album, some of the gear I didnt sell or left in caches, we could have done without any of those if needed.
Almost two years later I dont even remember some of the stuff we left behind with so much pain, wisihng we could have taken it with us.
People get attacked to stuff too much. I know I like gear as much as the next guy, but I know I can walk away from it in a second without looking back.
Also, if something is forcing you to leave, maybe even leave for good, then you probably dont have much time to pack a trailer full of stuff, or if you're evacuating abroad you cant take i with you anyway.
FerFAL
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
FerFAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 07:53   #32
Stupid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,791
The whole point of my question is that some of us focus so much what to put in a bag but in reality, none would be used. It is not realistic for us to take a bag of goods and walk out on foot for a few days - we won't last a few days.

I would suggest focus on getting some critical cash on hand, $5K on hand and $20K in the bank, so that you can survive after a disaster.

Last edited by Stupid; 05-18-2013 at 07:53..
Stupid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 08:25   #33
thetoastmaster
NOT a sheepdog!
 
thetoastmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: One Nation, Under Surveillance
Posts: 5,274
Send a message via ICQ to thetoastmaster Send a message via AIM to thetoastmaster
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
It depends. In some cases its just a matter of leaving for a few days and staying at family or friends. If your house burned down and you either dont have insurnace, that particular disaster isnt covered or you did something that voided your contract, then you're looking at spending a LOT of money to get back on your feet. So it could be a BO scenario where you spend nothing, or it culd be one that costs you hundreds of thousands to recover from.
You evcuate due to storm/flood warnings. The guy that has a pace to stay may spend little or nothing, the guy that has to find a hotel to stay in may end up spending hundreds of dollars. Then again there may be no hotel rooms left due to everyone doing the same thing. This means a) PAying for a more expensive room b) having to travel further way, more gas, more traveling.
Depending on the event you may not now how long it will be before you come back. If you are leaving due to escalating civil unrest and that evolves into a full blown socioeconomic collapse of the country you may chose to never come back. Same for ethnic or religious persecution.
Bugging Out Aborad is a bit harder on your pocket. 5000 bucks is barely covering a family's plane ticket expenses, and that's if you leave i tiem, beofre you have to start bribing your way out of it. During the Bosnia war, you were looking at 10.000 USD per person to buy your way out of sieged Sarajevo, surrounded by Serbian forces.
Getting settled abroad also costs money, adding another 30.000 USD or so.



Sometimes you can't tell for sure if you're coming back or not. In some cases you have a better idea, but even with natural disasters you may not have a home left to come back to!
I've been writing a lot about this topic lately and I'm not much of a believer of having ten thousand diferent bags, like BOB, INCH, GHB and TSBTGMBFTG. "The survival bag to get me back from the gym". Its as if marketing has taken over survivalism and there's more bug out bags, or survival emergency bags than there is purse or shoe designers. We just have BOB, and a small traveling bag with our passports, cash stash and other documents, that always goes along with it.
Why have it in a sepratate (and much smaller docuement bag)? Becuase if the house is burning down or similar imminent threat and I dont have time or I cant carry a BOB with me, becasue theres no time, becuase I'm wounded or I have to help or carry a family member, then that's the bag I'm trying to get out of the house if at all possible.
When I left my home knowing fully well I was never coming back, what I needed the most, what we couldnt have done without was in my jacket's pocket: Plane tickets, cash & credit cards, USB drive in my keychain with essential data and our passports. Anything else could be improvised or bought back. Everything else, the suitcases with clothings, our wedding photo album, some of the gear I didnt sell or left in caches, we could have done without any of those if needed.
Almost two years later I dont even remember some of the stuff we left behind with so much pain, wisihng we could have taken it with us.
People get attacked to stuff too much. I know I like gear as much as the next guy, but I know I can walk away from it in a second without looking back.
Also, if something is forcing you to leave, maybe even leave for good, then you probably dont have much time to pack a trailer full of stuff, or if you're evacuating abroad you cant take i with you anyway.
FerFAL
There are quite a few ideas and concepts mixed up in there. I am going to attempt to tease out the ideas and address them individually.

I generally agree with your additional reasons for and circumstances surrounding leaving your home. There are a thousand scenarios ranging from the mundane to the truly bizarre. They happen every day. Yes, some people are more prepared than others. Most leave with nothing but the clothes they're wearing and experience difficulty reassembling their lives with missing insurance policies, credit card and mortgage documents, birth certificates, etc. Having those items packed, with duplicates in secure locations is a good idea.

Preparing is not about the accumulation of gear, as you alluded in multiple places. It is about planning and conducting thought experiments. Where will you go? What will you do? Are you ready to leave everything behind? Can you readily recover? What are your assets? What are your liabilities? Your notion of having cash to evacuate abroad is an interesting notion. I don't know how germane it is to this particular exchange; but I appreciate your sharing it. Cash on hand is always a vital addition to any preparedness scenario; but while I understand your point, I don't think fleeing from the United States is a viable option right now. I mean, if the situation is so bad here we have to flee, how much worse will it be abroad? Allow me an indulgence:

Quote:
You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We will preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we will sentence them to take the first step into a thousand years of darkness. If we fail, at least let our children and our children’s children say of us we justified our brief moment here. We did all that could be done — Ronald Reagan
There will be no place to flee if the US falls. Yes, have cash to get that hotel room, or medical intervention, or to bribe a crooked official. I will not contest those points, even on the amount. The more you have, the better off you will be.

I think we have a misunderstanding. I never specifically wrote of having different bags for what amounts to a more severe version of the same scenario, staying for a few days to never coming home, leaving on foot to leaving in a vehicle, etc. My family and I subscribe to a layered approach to this, similar to the US military's It's based upon "lines" of preparations and equipment. My first line might just be my everyday items, what I have in my pockets at any given moment. If there is an emergency without notice I can grab a loaded LBE and body armor. If there is another moment I can add a loaded three-day-sized bag. After that, there are loaded wheeled boxes with more supplies, ready to load in the car. Do you see where I am taking this? The more time I have, and the more time I expect to be gone, the more gear I can take with me. I have some additional supplies prepositioned at another location. Admittedly, my first plan is to stay close, and hunker down with nearby family.

I stand by my observation that in most scenarios I will be returning home. I modify my point to bring it somewhat in harmony with yours, that in some scenarios an evacuation will be permanent, with either no opportunity to return, or that your remaining gear could be lost, stolen, or destroyed in the disaster that necessitated leaving. I will further modify my point to cover scenarios that require your bug out gear. If all I am taking is my line one and line two gear, I am planning on coming home.

This has become a thought provoking exchange.
__________________
This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense,
The sword is more important than the shield,
And skill is more important than either,
The final weapon is the brain.
All else is supplemental.

- John Steinbeck

2+2≠4!
thetoastmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 08:57   #34
FerFAL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by thetoastmaster View Post
I don't think fleeing from the United States is a viable option right now. I mean, if the situation is so bad here we have to flee, how much worse will it be abroad?
Oh, I'm not saying fleeing USA is a good idea by any means, at least not right now. In fact, its one of the best places to be in, in my opinion.
Having said that, we're not in the same boat regarding "if USA falls there's no place left to go to" approach.
I've came across that line of thought many times, but its one that doesnt accept the fact that always, when a country or empire or even region has fallen from grace there's always another region that is better off. Not wanting to leave becuase of patriotism, that I understand. But if there's a large scale disaster ( civil war, large scale terrorist attack, nuke, meteor impoact, Hilary 2016) not wanting to leave becuase it cant possibly be better offelsewhere, that's denial to me.
Again, I'd life in USA myslef right now if I could, but at the same time I know fully well that its important to have BO plans, both locally and out of the country if possible in case it ever comes to that.
FerFAL
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
FerFAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 09:54   #35
Stupid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Oh, I'm not saying fleeing USA is a good idea by any means, at least not right now. In fact, its one of the best places to be in, in my opinion.
Having said that, we're not in the same boat regarding "if USA falls there's no place left to go to" approach.
I've came across that line of thought many times, but its one that doesnt accept the fact that always, when a country or empire or even region has fallen from grace there's always another region that is better off. Not wanting to leave becuase of patriotism, that I understand. But if there's a large scale disaster ( civil war, large scale terrorist attack, nuke, meteor impoact, Hilary 2016) not wanting to leave becuase it cant possibly be better offelsewhere, that's denial to me.
Again, I'd life in USA myslef right now if I could, but at the same time I know fully well that its important to have BO plans, both locally and out of the country if possible in case it ever comes to that.
FerFAL
I second to that. The whole mentality of "If US is in turmoil, the rest of the world would be worse" is very narrow sighted. Empires rise and fail. Even in the height of WWI and WWII, there are plenty places in the world as if there were nothing going on. US is just a tiny portion of the world, important and crucial but not the only paradise.

Having another footing in another country has a huge advantage over all the goodie bags.

For any survival situation, I would suggest to focus on getting some cash on hand in the short term, and then focus on getting another footing in a different country.

You aren't going to walk out with your bug out bag with your family and come back alive. For a short camping trip, sure but not any real disaster situation. Think Lewis and Clark. Without the Indian Nations, they would be dead as a rock. What makes you think you can do better?

http://www.prairiefirenewspaper.com/...indian-nations

Last edited by Stupid; 05-18-2013 at 09:59..
Stupid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 10:18   #36
wingryder
Senior Member
 
wingryder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: 28.420, -81.171
Posts: 2,542
Quote:
Originally Posted by FerFAL View Post
Oh, I'm not saying fleeing USA is a good idea by any means, at least not right now. In fact, its one of the best places to be in, in my opinion.
Having said that, we're not in the same boat regarding "if USA falls there's no place left to go to" approach.
I've came across that line of thought many times, but its one that doesnt accept the fact that always, when a country or empire or even region has fallen from grace there's always another region that is better off. Not wanting to leave becuase of patriotism, that I understand. But if there's a large scale disaster ( civil war, large scale terrorist attack, nuke, meteor impoact, Hilary 2016) not wanting to leave becuase it cant possibly be better offelsewhere, that's denial to me.
Again, I'd life in USA myslef right now if I could, but at the same time I know fully well that its important to have BO plans, both locally and out of the country if possible in case it ever comes to that.
FerFAL
Sure, there will be countries better off than the US. But will they be willing to accept the hundreds of thousands of refugees trying to get in? The US turned away a ship loaded with Jewish refugees during WWII, and we realize the persecution they were enduring! Immigration during a stressful global scenario may not be as easy as buying your way into sweden.
__________________
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
wingryder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 10:47   #37
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 28,033
Blog Entries: 1


Glad your back around FF.Respects.'08.
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 10:48   #38
FerFAL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 511
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingryder View Post
Sure, there will be countries better off than the US. But will they be willing to accept the hundreds of thousands of refugees trying to get in? The US turned away a ship loaded with Jewish refugees during WWII, and we realize the persecution they were enduring! Immigration during a stressful global scenario may not be as easy as buying your way into sweden.
But many Jews did succesfully get to emigrate to USA, as well as other countries around the globe.
Two key points here. Timing and resources.
Thousands of Jews left before it got bad. Thousands of others said it wont get that bad, stayed and paid for that, sometimes with their lives. Timing is everything.
Then there's resources. If you had a nice amount of money or gold your chances of being welcomed were greater. Again, many Jews had enough wealth to make it easier to settle abroad.
The more options you have, the better. Maybe one country is harder to get into, so that is way having other options is important. If you have EU citizenship you can get into any country of the EU without problem. I'm Argentine as well, so that opens up the Mercosur for me and my family, most of South America we can get into just like a regular citizen.
There's thousands of Americans that could claim Iirsh citizenship, (if you have an Irish grandparent you can do it) that alone gets you a EU passport.
This is a different creature from short or medium term BO based on a limited local event, but none the less its something that could be invaluble if things get REALLY bad.
FerFAL
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
FerFAL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 11:10   #39
kirgi08
Silver Membership
Watcher.
 
kirgi08's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Acme proving grounds.
Posts: 28,033
Blog Entries: 1


Folk,he has the btdt t-shirt.'08.
__________________
I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

If you look like food,You will be eaten.

Rip Chad.You will be missed.
kirgi08 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-18-2013, 12:04   #40
bdcochran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,644
Easy to answer

"You aren't going to walk out with your bug out bag with your family and come back alive. Think Lewis and Clark. Without the Indian Nations, they would be dead. What makes you think you can do better?"

For most people, the thinking is ...

1. if Rambo can do it in the movies, I can too;
2. if I served in Vietnam or Iraq 10 years ago and am out of shape, I can get back into shape within 2 days when shtf;
3. if a few people did it in history, I will be able to do the same.

There is a mountain range running down the center of the City of Los Angeles. The base on the north side is an east west street named VEntura Boulevard. The base on the south side is Sunset Boulevard. The distance is about 10 miles. There are no restaurants, fast food stands, gasoline stations, strip malls, rest stops, drinking fountains between the two streets in the mountains.

If you are not permitted in the scenario to walk on the three streets and the freeway connecting the two and you posit that there is no brush fire, then the question is how many people age 1 to 95 can be dumped out on Sunset Boulevard and make it on their own (heck you can even assume a three day pack) and make it to Ventura Boulevard.

The answer is probably that out of 100 who try, the survivors can be counted on two hands or fewer. Oh, yeah, and I will let you assume that when they arrive at Ventura Blvd, they can go to the nearest restaurant.

Sure, I saw a camel caravan in Turkey on the Mediterranean Coast, caravans in Afghanistan in the 1970s and probably one of the last ones in remote Western China. Those people lived the life, had the skills, knew where the water might be, had the food sources in mind.

The person who posted that you provide for emergency, temporary survival in the US and then a foothold elsewhere like in a foreign country has more insight than the guy who thinks his bugout with an unskilled spouse and minor children is going to last more than a couple of days.
bdcochran is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 20:15.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,118
300 Members
818 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31