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Old 05-18-2013, 02:29   #151
goldenlight
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It's mostly about the money.

Cities/towns make money off of each DWI. There is generally a BIG fine, plus 'court costs', which is just another big fine.

In my state, one out of every SEVEN drivers has had a DWI. It will probably go down to one in 5, when this passes.

Because, it WILL pass, sooner or later. You know that, don't you?

I don't drink, ever, so I really don't care.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:06   #152
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This is so stupid..define impaired...just make it 0% and stop the torture.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:10   #153
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The estimate with my weight is 0.04 with 2 drinks per hour. I'm not a big guy. We are also all very different with regards to the enzyme that metabolizes alcohol, alcohol dehydrogenase. Some people metabolize it better than others. I can tell you this much, if I drink 3 beers per hour, I start to feel the effects. I don't drink much at all, but 2 drinks can easily put a smaller person over the 0.05 limit.
I'm not saying one doesn't feel the effects. That's what I'm getting at. I feel one beer if I drink it pretty fast..not killing it.

I along with others have drank and felt we were not safe to drive but when tested on a breath tester weren't as high as we thought it would be. We weren't near 08.

At your size ..if you drank two in 30 minutes..then given a 20 minute deprivation ....you might feel it but might go 02..you are gonna lose 015 or basically one of those beers an hour sitting around.
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Old 05-18-2013, 08:51   #154
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That website seems legit.


You can agree to disagree, or you can try to tell me how wrong I am. Unless you can prove to me that a .05 isn't at least mildly impaired compared to a completely sober driver, I don't see how this is the end of the world.


I'm curious what a bunch of police officers would say about .05-.07 drivers and how safe they are.
Of course someone will be impaired at least slightly at .05 compared to them completely sober. The question is whether the impairment is significant enough to realistically make most people a significant threat to other drivers at .05. Lots of things "impair" drivers. Old age negatively impacts eyesight and reaction time, among other things. Listening to the radio or using a GPS can distract drivers and make them more likely to cause an accident. Passengers can be very distracting to drivers, especially children, even wearing a heavy coat in winter could impair movement, slowing your ability to react. How does having a BAC of .05 automatically make you more of a danger than a distracted or elderly driver?
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:53   #155
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Think that there should be some reflex timing test, or maybe one of those arcade type driving games at the DMV.

Every time you renew your license you can try to "upgrade" your legal blood booze limit, you bring in a case of your favorite beer (or a bottle of your choice of hard stuff). Get on the game, do a couple shots or beers, and then keep repeating the process until it the results show a marked decline in driving ability. Some may be only able to have one shot or beer....some could run OK at a much higher percentage.

About 14 years ago while working in Buenos Aires, one of my friends and I tried this. The bar we went to had an arcade next door. We'd hit the racing car game sober, record our scores. Hit the bar for a few, come back and repeat the race...continue until we were pretty tipsy.

Did this every Saturday afternoon for a few weeks to build some type of trend. Was kinda' funny. His scores went down like a hockey stick with increased beer intake. Mine climbed constantly with more beer....but he still got higher average scores although I could beat him when we hit our limit of 10 pints.

And yes, we walked to and from the bar...driving in Bs. As. is not a fun time at any time.
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Old 05-18-2013, 13:17   #156
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Then what you are saying is that a couple on a date that has a glass of wine with dinner and drives home, the driver deserves to lose their license? Just because somebody lives differently from you, does not make them wrong or make you right. And what's all of this talk about Europe? This is not Europe, their culture and customs don't necessarily apply here, and most importantly, just because they do something differently from us, does not make it automatically right. I mean, would you agree with their gun laws in most places in Europe?

I will use the same example I used in a previous post. Last evening I had dinner out with my GF. I had one beer with my dinner and drove home after. I absolutely would not have blown a 0.00 because I just admitted that I drank, yet I was not impaired in any way? Did I deserve to lose my license for what I did? Why don't we make it illegal to operate a vehicle with a screaming infant in the back seat? I can only imagine how much of distraction that is to the driver. Or how about we ban people from driving home after working a 24 hours shift? Why not make it illegal to adjust the radio?

Again, what is it with people trying to make criminals out of innocent people regarding various issues? I am beginning to suspect that this is not a liberal/conservative thing, and it's not a gun restriction thing. It's simply a lack of common sense. The law is written that you either blow a 0.08 or higher, or you are impaired with a lower BAC level. The 0.08 limit is not cut and dry, and you can very easily get charged with a DUI if you are impaired at 0.05. How about we apply the same common-sense standard that we wish applied to our gun laws, to this situation. A 10 round mag limit isn't going to force the local gang banger to turn in his 30-round AK47 mags, and a BAC limit of 0.00 isn't going to stop the guy who doesn't give a crap from driving with a 0.20. Both laws however serve to make criminals out of innocent people. How about we enforce the laws we have, punish drunk drivers instead of letting them get off with a plea deal, and leave the guy who has a beer or glass of wine with his SO alone.
You're right, it is a culture thing. Most Europeans always have a drink, or two, or three with dinner. Dinner usually lasts at least an hour, plus talking after the meal. Sometimes, they will walk around town for 30mins-1hr before driving.

I suppose I will recant my previous statement about a 0.00% DUI being okay. However, I do believe that it should be lowered to 0.05% like 90% of the world has.

Increasing penalties for repeat offenders is probably the most efficient way of cutting down on drunk driving. Instead of suspending someone's license for a year for the second offense, suspend it permanently.

I knew a guy who received 3 DUI convictions. It's pathetic that he's still on the road with a license. People with poor judgement like him (it's obvious that he has poor judgement, based on the 3 DUIs) shouldn't be allowed on the road.
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Old 05-18-2013, 14:04   #157
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If you drink you don't drive.

That doesn't sound too hard....


God forbid people have to be responsible or anything like that......
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Old 05-18-2013, 15:25   #158
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If you drink you don't drive.

That doesn't sound too hard....


God forbid people have to be responsible or anything like that......
Exactly. I said this before in this forum and caught flack for it.
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Old 05-18-2013, 15:44   #159
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I would much rather have drinking and sex banned. I am sure it costs me (and you) a lot more than driving and driving does....
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:59   #160
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Of course someone will be impaired at least slightly at .05 compared to them completely sober. The question is whether the impairment is significant enough to realistically make most people a significant threat to other drivers at .05. Lots of things "impair" drivers. Old age negatively impacts eyesight and reaction time, among other things. Listening to the radio or using a GPS can distract drivers and make them more likely to cause an accident. Passengers can be very distracting to drivers, especially children, even wearing a heavy coat in winter could impair movement, slowing your ability to react. How does having a BAC of .05 automatically make you more of a danger than a distracted or elderly driver?
People get old whether they want to or not.

There are dozens of potential distractions that an ordinary driver may face. I don't see a point in making it legal for them to be even remotely impaired by alcohol on top of that. I'm gonna just refer to the post by the officer earlier in the thread, claiming that according to his info yes, at .05 statistically a person will start being affected.

I don't see what's so hard about having a DD or drinking at home.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:42   #161
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Let's just cut to the chase and make it 0.00%. That way we can make everyone a criminal, the lawyers can get rich at $5k a pop defending people for having pasta with vodka sauce and the courts and government get all the money they need for "court costs" and fines.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:44   #162
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Speeds are a tricky thing. For one, it depends on the ability or the driver and the capability of the vehicle. Two, it depends on road conditions. IMO, driving 150 mph on the highway is not unsafe by itself, but the conditions have to be right. You must have a capable car, have the right skill set, and most importantly, the right road conditions. Here in the US, with most people driving 70 or less, I would argue that driving 150 at any time is unsafe. However, if you have a clear day and an empty road, I don't see how driving at any speed you can safely handle is unsafe.

Maybe you can tell me, what is typical highway driving in Germany. I know their highways have stretches of no speed limit, but I was under the impression that they do have speed limits on many highways.
One of the many reasons why CA has a reasonable speed law. If you have a bunch of cars on the road that are bringing speeds down it is not the time to go 70 on I5. Every Wed before Thanksgiving I5 is a mess. It can turn into a parking lot in 70 mph zones. Where most days people go 80+ without a glace from the CHP.

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Old 05-19-2013, 09:55   #163
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One of the many reasons why CA has a reasonable speed law. If you have a bunch of cars on the road that are bringing speeds down it is not the time to go 70 on I5. Every Wed before Thanksgiving I5 is a mess. It can turn into a parking lot in 70 mph zones. Where most days people go 80+ without a glace from the CHP.

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But look at what I posted about semi-trucks going 50mph (strictly enforces nearly 100% by electronic monitoring of trucks) yet cars go 150+ mph in the lane to them.

Now, being honest, much of the problem in the USA is the guy wanting to go faster will pass on the right. The person going slow stays in the left lane. On these highways left is for ACTIVE passing only. And yes the police will get people for not moving left. How do they define that. If a car is behind you in the left and you have a chance to move right, you are in violation. Left lane has to be yielded to faster traffic.
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:02   #164
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I'd rather they stiffen the penalty for ALL DWI convictions . First offense equals fine , community service and hardship license only . Mandatory jail time for second offense and up . Too many of these charges get reduced for various reasons .
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:00   #165
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But look at what I posted about semi-trucks going 50mph (strictly enforces nearly 100% by electronic monitoring of trucks) yet cars go 150+ mph in the lane to them.

Now, being honest, much of the problem in the USA is the guy wanting to go faster will pass on the right. The person going slow stays in the left lane. On these highways left is for ACTIVE passing only. And yes the police will get people for not moving left. How do they define that. If a car is behind you in the left and you have a chance to move right, you are in violation. Left lane has to be yielded to faster traffic.
This is the sole reason why lack of speed limits or driving 80+ in the us is generally unsafe. Most people don't obey or even know of the basic driving laws such as moving right, and cops do not enforce those laws. Im beginning to agree more and more that traffic laws and enforcement is about revenue and not safety in this country.
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:21   #166
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This is the sole reason why lack of speed limits or driving 80+ in the us is generally unsafe. Most people don't obey or even know of the basic driving laws such as moving right, and cops do not enforce those laws. Im beginning to agree more and more that traffic laws and enforcement is about revenue and not safety in this country.
In general I agree with this statement.

Now, coming from me this will be a shock.

I agree with european style traffic enforcement. They use phot radar and red light cameras. The have decided that most traffic offenses are not a criminal matter but a civil matter. Therefore, you get the photo, you pay your fine. It is a 100% bureaucratic process that is essentially automatic. My ONE violation in Europe (Switzerland) was a redlight camera. they had a picture of my plate, of me, the light, and the time after the redlight turned red that I was in the intersection (0.47 seconds too longwhich was actually 1.47 seconds too long because they subtract 1 second for their timing errors). I got a letter with abill ( bank transfer) and said send them 250CHF.

It is essentially an automated process to remind people to follow the rules. It doesnt matter if 100 cars go by in a minute over the speed limit or 1. The camera records them all and sends letters out.

Germany people go often 30kmh (20mph) over the speed limit because up to 30kmh (outside of cities/towns) it is very cheap (about 40 euro) and you just send in your fine. Switzerland.Follow the rules. The minimum fine for up to 5kmh over (they subtract the first 6 for error), starts around 250CHF and quickly goes to 2500CHF or 3000CHF.
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Old 05-19-2013, 13:06   #167
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In general I agree with this statement.

Now, coming from me this will be a shock.

I agree with european style traffic enforcement. They use phot radar and red light cameras. The have decided that most traffic offenses are not a criminal matter but a civil matter. Therefore, you get the photo, you pay your fine. It is a 100% bureaucratic process that is essentially automatic. My ONE violation in Europe (Switzerland) was a redlight camera. they had a picture of my plate, of me, the light, and the time after the redlight turned red that I was in the intersection (0.47 seconds too longwhich was actually 1.47 seconds too long because they subtract 1 second for their timing errors). I got a letter with abill ( bank transfer) and said send them 250CHF.

It is essentially an automated process to remind people to follow the rules. It doesnt matter if 100 cars go by in a minute over the speed limit or 1. The camera records them all and sends letters out.

Germany people go often 30kmh (20mph) over the speed limit because up to 30kmh (outside of cities/towns) it is very cheap (about 40 euro) and you just send in your fine. Switzerland.Follow the rules. The minimum fine for up to 5kmh over (they subtract the first 6 for error), starts around 250CHF and quickly goes to 2500CHF or 3000CHF.
I agree with this. Generally, speeding n the highway is a very minor offense. If I'm caught, fine me and that's it. No need to punish me twice, once with a fine and the second time with points and higher insurance premiums. But of course for me to safely go 90 in a 70, others should know to leave the left lane for passing. It would be much more productive from a safety aspect to fine people camping in the left lane, than it is to fine drivers for going 15 over. Just for the record, because I just know someone will try to say something, I have never had a ticket in the 10 years I've been driving. Just one red light ticket that got thrown out in court because I had valid reason for entering the intersection on yellow.

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Old 05-19-2013, 13:48   #168
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I'd rather they stiffen the penalty for ALL DWI convictions . First offense equals fine , community service and hardship license only . Mandatory jail time for second offense and up . Too many of these charges get reduced for various reasons .
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Old 05-19-2013, 17:07   #169
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People get old whether they want to or not.

There are dozens of potential distractions that an ordinary driver may face. I don't see a point in making it legal for them to be even remotely impaired by alcohol on top of that. I'm gonna just refer to the post by the officer earlier in the thread, claiming that according to his info yes, at .05 statistically a person will start being affected.

I don't see what's so hard about having a DD or drinking at home.
So it's okay for elderly drivers to put others at risk because they can't help getting old, but everyone with a BAC of .05 should automatically be made a criminal because a few people might be unsafe to drive at that BAC? Interestingly, many of the effects of a .05 BAC that he posted are pretty similar to the effects of old age. Someone should take a group of random drivers age 20-40, get them to a BAC of .05 and tested their reaction time, fine motor skills, visual acuity and driving skills. Then run the same tests with a group of random drivers age 70-90 who are completely sober. I'd bet a good bit of money that the younger group still scores better.

People with a BAC under .08 can still be charged with DUI if they're obviously impaired, so why does the limit at which they are automatically a criminal need to be lowered? What should be done is drivers have to take a test on a simulator that tests their driving skills, reaction time, visual acuity, etc., when they renew their license, or at least every 10 years or so. Someone else already mentioned maybe they could even test your impairment at various BAC levels, then put your safe level on your license. Or just put a small computer running a simulator in police cars and at DUI checkpoints to determine if drivers really are impaired.

FYI, I do mostly drink at home. Occasionally I go out and have a beer or two with dinner, then drive home an hour or so later. I'm 220 lbs, a couple beers with dinner does nothing to me, I'm not even close to .05. However, I still don't think people who out and have a few drinks should automatically be criminals.

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Old 05-19-2013, 17:40   #170
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Working in a Level 1 trauma ED I see the results of drunk driving every single day. I feel they need to have harsher punishments (at least in my state of NC). Too many people skate by with one or two DUIs with little to no time in jail. I have witnessed too many families ripped apart by the actions of drunk drivers and am fed up with it. Simply lowering the legal limit does nothing to correct the core problem.
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Old 05-20-2013, 20:25   #171
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First of all, unless you show signs of impairment at any level (.05-.20...and yes, I have seen people at .20 that did not appear to be impaired), there will be a lack of probable cause for the chemical test. If you are truly unimpaired, you will probably not even be tested. However, there is data to support observable impairment at .04. How much?..why the hell does it matter. Impairment means your ability to drive is impaired. Why should you be allowed to consume something (anything) that impairs you at all and then drive a vehicle around the rest of us. I have made arrests for drivers huffing paint, taking cough syrup, benedryl....etc. You get hit by an impaired driver, it really doesn't matter what they were impaired by.

It doesn't matter how often you drink and how you can do the walk and turn and one leg stand test, and how great a driver you think you are, alcohol causes horizontal gaze nystagmus, this is the INVOLUNTARY jerking of the eyes as they gaze to the side. This is a condition that becomes observable when someone uses appropriate doses of central nervous system depressants (alcohol), inhalants and dissociative anesthetics. If you have observable HGN, you are absolutely impaired. It becomes observable at around .04.

Without regard to the legality of the substance, how much cocaine or heroin would you be comfortable with someone taking before they drive around your family? Why people feel that they have a right to ingest impairing substances of any kind and then drive is beyond me.

In my 21 years as a police officer, the career drunks and career criminals are more likely to plead guilty. The overwhelming majority of trials and from the first time offenders (usually at .10 and below). If this is a money grab, it will only help one group. There is far more money for defense attorneys than anyone else here.

I am by no means a person who thinks we should make alcohol illegal. Drink all you want. Alcohol is a central nervous system depressant. It is a drug that begins to impact your ability to divide your attention, your fine motor skills as soon as you begin to ingest it.

I have made well over 1000 dui arrests. It is rare to see the stereotypical drunk anymore. Those people generally get stopped by common sense or friends. The real issue that I see is dui drugs (mostly LEGAL drugs) and people who are convinced that they are fine and should be allowed to drink a few and then put everyone else at risk.
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Old 05-20-2013, 20:34   #172
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revenue generator , more money plain and simple . DWI ARRESTS MAKE BIG BUCKS .
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Old 05-20-2013, 21:00   #173
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revenue generator , more money plain and simple . DWI ARRESTS MAKE BIG BUCKS .
I wish that were true. My agency gets about $50-$100 from a dui conviction. Takes about 3-4 hours of officer time at around 30-40 per hour. Not a good business model.

Courts here generally fine $500, 3 days in a driver intervention program or 3 in jail if they prefer. Defense attorneys charge upwards of 5k. There is your big bucks.
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Old 05-20-2013, 21:33   #174
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I wish that were true. My agency gets about $50-$100 from a dui conviction. Takes about 3-4 hours of officer time at around 30-40 per hour. Not a good business model.

Courts here generally fine $500, 3 days in a driver intervention program or 3 in jail if they prefer. Defense attorneys charge upwards of 5k. There is your big bucks.
i was basically meaning the whole judicial process from leo down to lawyers
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Old 05-20-2013, 21:43   #175
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i was basically meaning the whole judicial process from leo down to lawyers
I won't disagree with you (except for the LEO part, I've yet to get rich off them). Either way, it doesn't invalidate what I said about the bac issue.

I have always said that police departments should not receive any income from traffic fines, it should go towards a victim's fund. Takes the argument out of the purpose of enforcement. I was actually shocked at how little we get. From a standard traffic citation ($114) we get less than $20 on the paid citations. I think we received about 50k last year (on a 6 million budget). It isn't worth the negative press or impression from the public.
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