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Old 05-17-2013, 03:46   #126
eccho
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
I'd say that, statistically, drivers with .05 BAC exhibit:



http://alcoholism.about.com/od/dui/a/impaired.htm

It is also verbatim in several NHTSA textbooks, that was pulled right off of google since I don't have my ADAP books in front of me.

I just don't understand it, I drank when I was in college and still have a few a year (not to the point of losing control but I still don't drive) but why somebody would become voluntarily intoxicated and then get behind the wheel of a 2200-???? pound missile cruising anywhere from 30-55+ MPH. You are putting yourself and everyone on the roadway in immense, unneeded danger.

It is not an enforcement problem, we are out there, we do what we can, we have OVI blitzes, we put extra cars on the roadway on 'drinking' holidays and weekends. Only to have it pled out. The court system is almost a joke nowadays for first or second time offenders. Then I hear and read people saying they only had a couple and got their 'first dewey'...everyone got their first. The guy with 10 OVI's who just got sent to prison got his first at one time...when will it stop?
Well thank you for your service.

I believe the police do everything they can, it just blows my mind that so many people don't take it seriously.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:45   #127
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Well thank you for your service.

I believe the police do everything they can, it just blows my mind that so many people don't take it seriously.

You're welcome! I do what I can. Thank you!

Unfortunately, until it is taken serious at a punitive level it will remain the same.

I've always said a first time offense (an M1 in most states) should be a mandatory three day sentence in the county jail. None of this BS hotel alcohol counseling (which is a joke from what I hear), three days in county lockup ought to open the eyes for most people.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:38   #128
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Originally Posted by eccho View Post
That website seems legit.


You can agree to disagree, or you can try to tell me how wrong I am. Unless you can prove to me that a .05 isn't at least mildly impaired compared to a completely sober driver, I don't see how this is the end of the world.


I'm curious what a bunch of police officers would say about .05-.07 drivers and how safe they are.
Can you prove that I will be impaired to any degree at 0.05? Can you prove that somebody else will be impaired to any degree at 0.08? The answer is no, because we are all different. I went out with my gf last night to dinner and had one beer. Then we drove home and all was well. I drink very rarely and no more than 2 drinks at a time, but I was not impaired in any way. What if my BAC was 0.05? Should I have gone to jail for what I did? That's why the laws are written as 0.08 or less if the driver is impaired. Stop trying to force useless laws down our throats and making criminals out of innocent people.
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Old 05-17-2013, 08:51   #129
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
I'd say that, statistically, drivers with .05 BAC exhibit:
I doubt you say that. I suspect that you copied and pasted from somewhere.

But lets go with it.

If YOU can tell, then we should be able line up 100 people with various BAC between 0.0000000000 and 0.20. You should be able to tell, at a 95% statistical confidence level, what the persons BAC is within the resolution of the test.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/dui/a/impaired.htm

It is also verbatim in several NHTSA textbooks, that was pulled right off of google since I don't have my ADAP books in front of me.

I just don't understand it, I drank when I was in college and still have a few a year (not to the point of losing control but I still don't drive) but why somebody would become voluntarily intoxicated and then get behind the wheel of a 2200-???? pound missile cruising anywhere from 30-55+ MPH. You are putting yourself and everyone on the roadway in immense, unneeded danger.

It is not an enforcement problem, we are out there, we do what we can, we have OVI blitzes, we put extra cars on the roadway on 'drinking' holidays and weekends. Only to have it pled out. The court system is almost a joke nowadays for first or second time offenders. Then I hear and read people saying they only had a couple and got their 'first dewey'...everyone got their first. The guy with 10 OVI's who just got sent to prison got his first at one time...when will it stop?
This is a good application of the scientific method. Determine the answer you want, and then find data to support it. IF you find contrary data, the scientific method says to ignore it.

Why do not you be honest and post data what percentage of "alcohol related" fatalities occur with BAC between -.005 and 0.08? How about 0.08 to .01? 0.1 to .15? Over .15.

I will help you.

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/810985.pdf

There is a distribution based upon BAC level.

The highest fatality rate occurred with drivers around a BAC of 0.16.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:08   #130
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Concealed Carry holders have a zero tolerance. (all states?)

As many of us Concealed Carry, anything except soda pop is off limits anyway. Moot point for many of us.
Not true. (There is also Tea - sweet or unsweet, and water).

Seriously though in SC I don't know that there is a law against carrying a firearm while drunk, but you cannot carry a firearm into a restaurant that sells alcohol for on-site consumption. This even includes places like Applebees, Chili's, etc.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:17   #131
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I guess if your life has not been affected by a drunk driver you will be upset at such a proposal.

In my town, an entire family burned to death when their van was hit by an 18 year old drunk driver.

A few months later another 18 year old drunk driver drove his car straight into the patio of a breakfast restaurant and sent a family of four to the ICU. They were pinned under the car and the kid tried to walk away but got tackled by witnesses. The victims had broken backs, broken hips and collapsed lungs.

I was there when my co-worker got the news that his wife and son and niece were all killed by a drunk driver. It was a gut wrenching experience to witness. The mans spirit was broken beyond words.

I am not a drinker so I could care less if it was banned 100%. I drank like a fish when I was young and dumb. I was a drunk driver many times and never got caught. I guess I just out grew that phase of life. Im am probably one of those odd balls that can have a good time without the need to drink.

I say drink all you want but just dont drink and drive. If you play, be prepared to pay.
I can only imagine what that was like.

However, you have to ask yourself the question "Would the lower limit have prevented these deaths?" If the drivers were between the legal limit at the time and the proposed one, you could make an argument. If they were above the current limit, the the argument could not really be made IMO.

I have no problem with a crackdown on drunk drivers (and texting drivers for that matter) but at what point are we no longer solving the problem and instead looking for scapegoats and "feel good" answers that don't fix the problem?
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:22   #132
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Bingo.

A sure sign someone's argument is weak or non-existent is if they have to support it with lies. MADD and NHTSA have been lying about drunk drivers and their BAC levels for years.

http://www.getmadd.com/index.htm
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Of the 12,998 deaths involving a drunk driver, 10,792 deaths were the drunk driver or his passenger.
2,206 were in other vehicles or pedestrians,
implying that they were all blameless victims. 2,206 is 5% of all traffic fatalities.
SCREEEECH!

Uh, what if those passengers that died that the website owner so quickly threw out were the driver's kids? Playing as fast and loose with the data as the NTSB.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:22   #133
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Hope they fail, miserably.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:38   #134
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Originally Posted by eccho View Post
That website seems legit.


.
I'm guessing you're dismissing it because of an amateurish layout. I doubt you have any information contradicting their claims and numbers.


Here's the point missing in all the arguments about .08, or .05, or even .03 BAC levels: If I'm a good driver sober then I'm probably still a good driver at .05 or .08 BAC. There are millions of people out there who shouldn't be behind the wheel of a car stone cold sober with a good night's sleep. Put a couple of drinks in them and they go from bad drivers to catastrophic. The numbers are aggressively hidden by NHTSA but as been pointed out here several times it's usually not the guy who has had 2 beers at Applebee's with dinner who is killing innocent people with his car while returning home. The majority of drunk driver's causing fatalities are way past .08 BAC. NHTSAs own numbers are completely untrustworthy so accurate information is hard to get.
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:28   #135
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Most judges order a substance abuse evaluation and being addicted to alcohol makes one a prohibited person under federal law.
No they don't this is a lie!
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:33   #136
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Lets assume that the Standardized Field Sobriety test is the 'gold standard' of whether or not a person is fit to drive on the highways, Then I have a proposal.

I propose that an officer be stationed at every drivers license office in the nation. The officer must be trained and certified to administer the test. The full test will be given to anyone who walks in the door and obtains or renews a drivers license.

No exceptions doctors, lawyers judges, LEO's, legislators, little old ladies, everyone who gets a license must pass the test every time, or not be issued a license. That should make the highways a lot safer.
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Old 05-17-2013, 14:46   #137
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Many countries in Europe have a a 0.00%BAC for driving. If you blow anything other than a goose egg, you face severe consequences. The US has one of the highest BAC limits in the world. I'm guessing this is due to our driving culture.

Penalties in Europe for a DUI are much more strict than in the US. In some US states, you might lose your license for 30 days for the first offense, while in others, you might lose it for a few months. When I lived in France, drivers lost their license for three years after the first DUI. The BAC limit was 0.05% iirc.

I think its ridiculous when police catch drivers who have lost their licenses and have three or four DUIs. Why aren't these people in jail?

I have no problem with making the limit 0.00%. I rarely, if ever drink anywhere besides in my home. But if I do, it's never more than one drink with food. I've had two drinks before (probably still under a 0.08%) and definitely did not feel comfortable driving.
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Old 05-17-2013, 15:17   #138
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I have no problem with making the limit 0.00%. I rarely, if ever drink anywhere besides in my home. But if I do, it's never more than one drink with food. I've had two drinks before (probably still under a 0.08%) and definitely did not feel comfortable driving.
Then what you are saying is that a couple on a date that has a glass of wine with dinner and drives home, the driver deserves to lose their license? Just because somebody lives differently from you, does not make them wrong or make you right. And what's all of this talk about Europe? This is not Europe, their culture and customs don't necessarily apply here, and most importantly, just because they do something differently from us, does not make it automatically right. I mean, would you agree with their gun laws in most places in Europe?

I will use the same example I used in a previous post. Last evening I had dinner out with my GF. I had one beer with my dinner and drove home after. I absolutely would not have blown a 0.00 because I just admitted that I drank, yet I was not impaired in any way? Did I deserve to lose my license for what I did? Why don't we make it illegal to operate a vehicle with a screaming infant in the back seat? I can only imagine how much of distraction that is to the driver. Or how about we ban people from driving home after working a 24 hours shift? Why not make it illegal to adjust the radio?

Again, what is it with people trying to make criminals out of innocent people regarding various issues? I am beginning to suspect that this is not a liberal/conservative thing, and it's not a gun restriction thing. It's simply a lack of common sense. The law is written that you either blow a 0.08 or higher, or you are impaired with a lower BAC level. The 0.08 limit is not cut and dry, and you can very easily get charged with a DUI if you are impaired at 0.05. How about we apply the same common-sense standard that we wish applied to our gun laws, to this situation. A 10 round mag limit isn't going to force the local gang banger to turn in his 30-round AK47 mags, and a BAC limit of 0.00 isn't going to stop the guy who doesn't give a crap from driving with a 0.20. Both laws however serve to make criminals out of innocent people. How about we enforce the laws we have, punish drunk drivers instead of letting them get off with a plea deal, and leave the guy who has a beer or glass of wine with his SO alone.

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Old 05-17-2013, 15:29   #139
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These type of exaggerations are similar to all the BS gun restrictions that hurt the law abiding citizens. They are just trying again to make criminals out of all of us for control and profit! Statistics will probably show that impared drivers are significantly over the limit now! Furthermore, demonstration of imparement should be a key factor over a bench mark blood test. Many people can have a few drinks without actual imparement although they may be "legally drunk". NG in my book and I'm not a real drinker.
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Old 05-17-2013, 16:22   #140
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When I lived in France, drivers lost their license for three years after the first DUI. The BAC limit was 0.05% iirc.
IF you actually have lived in France, you would know what French drivers are like.

Maybe we should use highways like French do? (hint why dont you tell us about French use of highways compared to roads that parallel the highways?)
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Old 05-17-2013, 16:24   #141
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And what's all of this talk about Europe? This is not Europe, their culture and customs don't necessarily apply here, and most importantly, just because they do something differently from us, does not make it automatically right. I mean, would you agree with their gun laws in most places in Europe?
Do I get to drive the same speeds when I am at residence #1 as I do at residence #2? Somehow I suspect that the GT braintrust would tell me that driving 125 to 150mph on a highway is unsafe and almost akin to attempted murder.
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Old 05-17-2013, 16:27   #142
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T A 10 round mag limit isn't going to force the local gang banger to turn in his 30-round AK47 mags, and a BAC limit of 0.00 isn't going to stop the guy who doesn't give a crap from driving with a 0.20. Both laws however serve to make criminals out of innocent people. How about we enforce the laws we have, punish drunk drivers instead of letting them get off with a plea deal, and leave the guy who has a beer or glass of wine with his SO alone.
You dont get it.

The habitiual drunk driver with 0.2..he wont pay fines. HE wont comply with laws. Look at what Jtull said. But the person who get nailed with a DWAI at 0.05 is likely someone who was out to dinner. Said person is likely to pay all the fines, fees, etc and the agencies get their federal funding and get the money from the offense.

Take all money making and grants out of the DUI enforcement and see how long it would last.
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Old 05-17-2013, 16:49   #143
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The thing that gets me with BAC is that people who drink regularly I would trust to drive me home with .12...Its prolly happened before and no im not proud of it. But the individual can function fine.

Another person may never drink and have a BAC of .05 and can barely stand. Of course this individual would be very small and most likely drank on an empty stomach.

It just confuses me how we can place a number on BAC=drunk for everyone. There is a grey area here. Just wish they had a better way of doing things because I have never heard of someone getting pulled over with .09 or higher and walking away because they felt fine and did the sobriety test with flying colors. They would still be in jail.

but hey I could be wrong. I know I take drinking and driving very seriously and avoid it at all costs...just wish others did the same
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Old 05-17-2013, 16:58   #144
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Do I get to drive the same speeds when I am at residence #1 as I do at residence #2? Somehow I suspect that the GT braintrust would tell me that driving 125 to 150mph on a highway is unsafe and almost akin to attempted murder.
Speeds are a tricky thing. For one, it depends on the ability or the driver and the capability of the vehicle. Two, it depends on road conditions. IMO, driving 150 mph on the highway is not unsafe by itself, but the conditions have to be right. You must have a capable car, have the right skill set, and most importantly, the right road conditions. Here in the US, with most people driving 70 or less, I would argue that driving 150 at any time is unsafe. However, if you have a clear day and an empty road, I don't see how driving at any speed you can safely handle is unsafe.

Maybe you can tell me, what is typical highway driving in Germany. I know their highways have stretches of no speed limit, but I was under the impression that they do have speed limits on many highways.
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Old 05-17-2013, 16:58   #145
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You dont get it.

The habitiual drunk driver with 0.2..he wont pay fines. HE wont comply with laws. Look at what Jtull said. But the person who get nailed with a DWAI at 0.05 is likely someone who was out to dinner. Said person is likely to pay all the fines, fees, etc and the agencies get their federal funding and get the money from the offense.

Take all money making and grants out of the DUI enforcement and see how long it would last.
That is an interesting point and one that I have not considered before. It certainly makes sense.
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Old 05-17-2013, 17:09   #146
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The thing that gets me with BAC is that people who drink regularly I would trust to drive me home with .12...Its prolly happened before and no im not proud of it. But the individual can function fine.

Another person may never drink and have a BAC of .05 and can barely stand. Of course this individual would be very small and most likely drank on an empty stomach.

It just confuses me how we can place a number on BAC=drunk for everyone. There is a grey area here. Just wish they had a better way of doing things because I have never heard of someone getting pulled over with .09 or higher and walking away because they felt fine and did the sobriety test with flying colors. They would still be in jail.

but hey I could be wrong. I know I take drinking and driving very seriously and avoid it at all costs...just wish others did the same
If you are impaired to the degree that your DD is .12 then you do not know if they are functioning fine.

Driving is a multi task procedure. Just because someone can converse and walk around does not mean their reaction time and driving skills aren't ok. Some people text and drive or read the paper...put on make up..etc.. Just because they made it to their destination is not proof that their actions were safe and posed no risk.

I don't agree with the 05. But 2-3 drinks at a meal are not gonna put most people near 05 or 08.
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Old 05-17-2013, 17:21   #147
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If you are impaired to the degree that your DD is .12 then you do not know if they are functioning fine.

Driving is a multi task procedure. Just because someone can converse and walk around does not mean their reaction time and driving skills aren't ok. Some people text and drive or read the paper...put on make up..etc.. Just because they made it to their destination is not proof that their actions were safe and posed no risk.

I don't agree with the 05. But 2-3 drinks at a meal are not gonna put most people near 05 or 08.
Two drinks can easily put a smaller person over 0.05.
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Old 05-17-2013, 17:35   #148
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Two drinks can easily put a smaller person over 0.05.
I disagree with easily .One loses a drink an hour through breathing. Then you have a 20 min time frame for mouth alcohol. Two with a meal eating ..I don't see it. A child maybe but I have no experience with that.
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Old 05-17-2013, 18:14   #149
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I disagree with easily .One loses a drink an hour through breathing. Then you have a 20 min time frame for mouth alcohol. Two with a meal eating ..I don't see it. A child maybe but I have no experience with that.
The estimate with my weight is 0.04 with 2 drinks per hour. I'm not a big guy. We are also all very different with regards to the enzyme that metabolizes alcohol, alcohol dehydrogenase. Some people metabolize it better than others. I can tell you this much, if I drink 3 beers per hour, I start to feel the effects. I don't drink much at all, but 2 drinks can easily put a smaller person over the 0.05 limit.
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Old 05-17-2013, 19:02   #150
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Speeds are a tricky thing. For one, it depends on the ability or the driver and the capability of the vehicle. Two, it depends on road conditions. IMO, driving 150 mph on the highway is not unsafe by itself, but the conditions have to be right. You must have a capable car, have the right skill set, and most importantly, the right road conditions. Here in the US, with most people driving 70 or less, I would argue that driving 150 at any time is unsafe. However, if you have a clear day and an empty road, I don't see how driving at any speed you can safely handle is unsafe.

Maybe you can tell me, what is typical highway driving in Germany. I know their highways have stret7ches of no speed limit, but I was under the impression that they do have speed limits on many highways.
There are speed limits on many highways. Somewhere between 100kmh (62mph) and 120kmh (75mph). But nearly 70% of the highways have no speed limit.

Now that said no matter what the speed limit is or is not (unlimited) semi trucks (anything over 7.5 GVWW) have a country wide speed limit of 80kmh (50mph) that is strictly enforced. Anything towing a small trailer will be 100kmh.

So on an unlimited speed section of the highways, there are cars driving 150+ mph in the left lane and semi trucks driving 50mph in the right lane. Then there is traffic trying to pass the trucks and pulling out from the right to left lane.

There are a lot of trucks going 50mph.

I would say that MOST passenger car traffic is between 120kmh and 160kmh (75 to 100mph). There are cars going faster than 100mph, but its maybe 10% of the cars. The ones going over 125mph are less than 1%. Since most cars (even expensive ones) dont go over 150mph, you chances of having a car pass you going 175mph are very low, but it does happen.

Also, how fast traffic is depends upon where. Pick the right autobahn on a sunday morning and you might get passed multiple times by very fast cars.
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