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Old 02-23-2014, 08:49   #1
jdavionic
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Ukraine - anything to learn from watching it?

I don't expect this country to go through the same power struggle that the Ukraine is presently enduring. With that said, it will be interesting to see how Putin handles this situation and whether there is anything to observe and learn.

I suspect Putin is restraining himself until the Olympics are done today. At that point, the ex-KGB chief will likely take new tactics. While we could certainly debate the political issues surrounding this situation, I thought this thread would instead focus on the S&P aspects.

For example, it appears people took to the streets in mass. You see many of them wearing gas masks. I know we debate the practical use of gas masks for threats of lethal chemical strikes. Whether that threat reaches a level of risk that prompts you to have one, what about having one simply to get through areas where crowd control is actively underway?

The Ukraine has many resources that are important to Russia (and Europe & US). I think it will be interesting to see if Putin imposes ruthless tactics to regain control. If so, we should watch & learn about - how do people there handle - no power, no food, no clean water, etc.

Would our gov't impose similar tactics here? I don't see a near-term threat of such behavior. However the gov't could take steps that would be deemed unpopular when dealing with a pandemic, terror strike that involves radioactive material, etc.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:20   #2
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I've noted in recent protest clashes, (my reference going from Iran's citizen protests thru the current Ukrainian events) that the respective police forces have been using snipers. Some of those shots are obviously used as a terror tactic - as the victims were unarmed and some were not even actively involved - just standing around. These are head/heart shots. Venezuela had a beauty queen sniped during a protest just this month.

I know snipers are not new. I know snipers are the best answer to counter other snipers. What seems to be highlighted to me lately, is that police snipers are willing to make a high profile example in the crowd (the prettiest girl in the scope?) to terrorize bystanders. Whether that is part of a political terror strategy or the work of rogue snipers is unknown to me.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:29   #3
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Half of the country seems to want to go with Russia and half with the west. Why do you think going with the west (Europe) is going to be there best option?

I don't.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:32   #4
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Lesson: never give up your guns
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:34   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UneasyRider View Post
Half of the country seems to want to go with Russia and half with the west. Why do you think going with the west (Europe) is going to be there best option?

I don't.
I don't. I don't know enough about the country to determine which path is best for their people. Culturally, I believe the East has stronger ties to Russia and the West to Europe.

That said, your point centers around a political debate that is not really suited for this section. My intent was to open a thread to discuss, monitor, and continue to discuss the situation there and how we might learn from this situation.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:36   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
Lesson: never give up your guns
What are their gun laws?
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:02   #7
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I think it would be very advantageous to observe any situation that may have regional or global significance. You can take something useful from any of these situations, either what to do, what not to do, what to avoid or a better way to prepare for something.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:25   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deputydave View Post
I think it would be very advantageous to observe any situation that may have regional or global significance. You can take something useful from any of these situations, either what to do, what not to do, what to avoid or a better way to prepare for something.
Yea, that captures my intent well. I'd much rather learn from the mistakes and experiences of others than serve as the example for others in the future.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:41   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
What are their gun laws?
Funny you should ask. I was just doing some research on this. Here's what I found.

"In Ukraine a license is required to own firearms. If a citizen is:

21 years of age (18 if the license is for hunting)
has no criminal record
has no history of domestic violence
has no mental illness or history of mental illness
has good reason (target shooting, hunting, collection)
...then that person may be issued a license.

Once a license is issued, all guns must be kept unloaded and in a safe. If a person owns more than three firearms, the safe must have an alarm on it. Citizens are permitted to own non-fully automatic rifles and shotguns as long as they are stored properly when not in use.

Handguns are illegal except for target shooting and those who hold concealed carry permits. Handguns are only allowed in .22, 9mm, .357mag and .38 calibre. Concealed carry licenses are available, but are not normally issued unless a threat to life is present and can be proven."

It was also mentioned on another site that there is a very large number of small arms unaccounted for from the Soviet days.

Speculation is most of those small arms have been sold on the black market by arms dealers. It's hard to say how many of those weapons are still in Ukraine.



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Old 02-23-2014, 10:45   #10
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I knew, and they learned that thin metal (1/8th inch?) shields are ok for clubs and completely ineffective for bullets.

The police use polycarbonate shield which have some effectiveness against projectiles.

Standing in the middle of the street (no cover or concealment) is highly ineffective against police using rifles and sub-guns.
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:03   #11
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It's interesting to see a minority of the population so easily oust a sitting president simply by getting up and engaging in large protests. Politicians are like bullies - no matter how powerful they seem, a lot of them are insecure underneath their tough exterior. A lot, not all.
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Old 02-23-2014, 14:11   #12
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Don't go to riots.

If one comes your way, leave.
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Old 02-23-2014, 14:57   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Don't go to riots.

If one comes your way, leave.
Very enlightening.

On a more interesting note, I've read that traffic in cities is being somewhat self-policed. It's unclear whether the citizens have power, running water, etc. I'd be interested to see if they do...and if not, how are the average citizens working through it.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:03   #14
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A few general S&P notes:

#1 LEAVING is never appreciated - pay attention to this Texas. Best line I ever heard was a guy discussing the "continuity of Government" plans FEMA had in place vs the actual response things. Continuity part was WAY disproportionate. Plan 1 step 1 goal - WE must remain in control.

#2 Random protesting does nothing but get you hurt. Chaos is easy to put down. You yell, you shout, you burn and turnover. They cordon off, contain, and at the end of the day all you did was hurt yourself.

#3 When this stuff happens - stay out of it / away from it. Bullets/gas/fire do not care that you had nothing to do with it. Crowds get out of control and they are dangerous.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:09   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KY Moose View Post
Funny you should ask. I was just doing some research on this. Here's what I found.

"In Ukraine a license is required to own firearms. If a citizen is:

21 years of age (18 if the license is for hunting)
has no criminal record
has no history of domestic violence
has no mental illness or history of mental illness
has good reason (target shooting, hunting, collection)
...then that person may be issued a license.

Once a license is issued, all guns must be kept unloaded and in a safe. If a person owns more than three firearms, the safe must have an alarm on it. Citizens are permitted to own non-fully automatic rifles and shotguns as long as they are stored properly when not in use.

Handguns are illegal except for target shooting and those who hold concealed carry permits. Handguns are only allowed in .22, 9mm, .357mag and .38 calibre. Concealed carry licenses are available, but are not normally issued unless a threat to life is present and can be proven."

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You know - while I do not necessarily agree with that, it does seem very reasonable. I could personally have a LOT of firepower in my hands under those rules. I could apparently have three very sporty hunting rifles, 5 Semi auto's, and a couple of shotguns. All in my alarmed safe. And, with enough creativity, I could own a few handguns in effective common calibers. And even possibly have a CCW...

Comment: I DO NOT believe in rights per se. Let's be honest - no one here actually wants a Schizophrenic to have a gun. No one thinks a kid who has assaulted 20 people before he was 18 should have a gun. At least that's my thought. Those are examples of people who just demonstrated that they are clearly a greater danger to everyone else than they are in danger.

For the record, I think this could easily apply to SUV ownership as well.

And the 'They will take the guns" if they know you have them is a weak argument. Great statistic: In PA during dear season there are more than 1,000,000 hunters with rather high powered rifles 30-06 and up, the first weekend. Every US military member on the ground in PA could not stop them if they turned those rifles in one direction and they could collect 10% of them before the other 90% got turned in that direction.

Back to lessons learned.

#4 If you live in an area where tear gas use is rampant, having the gas mask might move up the list. That said - being in a gas use environment is a bad idea.

Last edited by Aceman; 02-24-2014 at 08:13..
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Old 02-24-2014, 14:15   #16
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From what I've seen of the videos, the police are not actively doing much. I've seen a lot of violence go unmatched.

I don't want to live in the Capital city.
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Old 02-24-2014, 16:12   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikerret View Post
From what I've seen of the videos, the police are not actively doing much. I've seen a lot of violence go unmatched.

I don't want to live in the Capital city.
Standard mob approach is contain - not stop.
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Old 02-26-2014, 17:45   #18
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Looks like they are considering measures to prevent a run on banks
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...er-7-drop.html
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Old 02-28-2014, 18:01   #19
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On NBC News, they stated that there troops enter Ukraine without insignias and some with their faces covered. Why? There are troops with Russian insignias, so it's not like they are trying to pretend there are no Russian troops.
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Old 02-28-2014, 18:51   #20
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I think things may get a lot worse before it gets better. Putin will push as far as he absolutely can and I doubt many people including Barry will back him down. I haven't heard much as far as what the EU is saying as they are a lot closer to the action than we are.
In regards to the OP, I watched those people getting sniped... it was sad. Move to cover under concealment. Simple smoke devices could have helped that. Something I feel is under utilized in a lot of situations. I need to get some myself.
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