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Old 05-17-2013, 20:35   #201
SgtScott31
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I would never violate anyone's rights and if you would read you would see that I am not. If they don't exercise their right by asking me to leave VERBALLY as required by state law to exercise their right then I am not violating their right, because they are not exercising it. If they ask me to leave, I comply tthus again not violating their rights because once they exercise their right of control I comply.

You are WRONG. You seem to think that just because it's not a criminal charge it's completely ok to trample on people.

Just because you are not actually violating state law does NOT mean you're not violating their rights. They have a sign up. They don't want guns on their property PERIOD. Just because they don't verbally tell you doesn't mean you get a free pass on their account. You're just too ignorant and pompus to swallow it. The only thing you're doing is reinforcing their idea that people like you who carry guns don't respect other people and their choices. He will tell you to leave and tell everyone else how gun owners/carriers are in his eyes.

It's like letting your neighbor's dog sh** in your yard. You put up a sign for no dogs allowed, but since you don't verbally tell your neighbor I guess he has free reign to let his dog sh** where he pleases. After all since he's not breaking the law he's not violating YOUR rights as a property owner. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? If not, you'll never understand. Pull that crap in TN and I'll gladly lock you up on principle.

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Old 05-17-2013, 20:56   #202
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You are WRONG. You seem to think that just because it's not a criminal charge it's completely ok to trample on people.

Just because you are not actually violating state law does NOT mean you're not violating their rights. They have a sign up. They don't want guns on their property PERIOD. Just because they don't verbally tell you doesn't mean you get a free pass on their account. You're just too ignorant and pompus to swallow it. The only thing you're doing is reinforcing their idea that people like you who carry guns don't respect other people and their choices. He will tell you to leave and tell everyone else how gun owners/carriers are in his eyes.

It's like letting your neighbor's dog sh** in your yard. You put up a sign for no dogs allowed, but since you don't verbally tell your neighbor I guess he has free reign to let his dog sh** where he pleases. After all since he's not breaking the law he's not violating YOUR rights as a property owner. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds? If not, you'll never understand. Pull that crap in TN and I'll gladly lock you up on principle.
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The difference is I never opened up my property to the general public thus the laws and my rights are different from that of a business owner. Good try but your logic failed.

You can say what you want but the law has spoken. I have not violated anyone's rights and I have a clear Conscience no matter what you say. You are as bad as the anti-gunners, no worse.

EDIT: Sorry for the initial reply SgtScott31. I got defensive on that one and crossed the line.

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Old 05-17-2013, 21:09   #203
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You better have a charge that will stick cuz you want to pull that I will have your badge simple as that.

Just like a cop to be an arrogant jackass. Why don't you just go pull your gun on somebody at the McDonalds drive though already.

And the difference is I never opened up my property to the general public thus the laws and my rights are different from that of a business owner. Good try but your logic failed.


Your prejudice and bias is showing, Not to mention immaturity.

I have a feeling you are only about 1/2propelled by any concern about CCW and the other half is an "itch" to insult Cops.
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Old 05-17-2013, 21:29   #204
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Your prejudice and bias is showing, Not to mention immaturity.

I have a feeling you are only about 1/2propelled by any concern about CCW and the other half is an "itch" to insult Cops.
(removed by Ryan WA)

Actually it had nothing to do with him being a cop and everything to do with the content of his reply. None the less I should not have said what I did.

Or better yet lets forget about eh store owner's rights for just a sec and consider this...

If someone was CCWing in the movie theater in Aurora, CO when it was shot up I imagine lifes' would have been saved, despite the amazingly quick police response. But there was a no guns sign...does not the right to life trump it all? Not really the point I am trying to make but it is another way to look at it. Maybe there is a higher end goal. I know I carry not just to protect myself but other patrons of the establishment and the staff there. I could have a clear exist to protect myself from what's happening but I would stay to intervene with my gun.

Just another thought.

Also I will say to SgtScott31 that my initial reaction to his post was too harsh and I apologize for my reply.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-17-2013 at 22:20..
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Old 05-17-2013, 22:56   #205
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It's not arrogance to respect a property owner's rights. Being open to the public has nothing to do with it. It's private property whether it's open to the public or not. The courts hold property rights higher than anything you can ever do as a gun carrier.

If you open your house up as a business the same question applies. You can't tell me that just because you open up to the public you no longer have the same rights as anyone else who owns property. That the person who owns that property should go above and beyond to force you off his land/out of his building. The legislation, by passing the law, simply said it doesn't reach criminal ramifications until you refuse to leave. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong. It simply means the state will not pursue the matter criminally if you disobey a sign. The owner has every right to walk right up and ban you from property for disobeying the sign. In the process you leave a negative image on other gun owners/carriers.

AGAIN, YOU LEAVE A NEGATIVE IMAGE ON OTHER GUN OWNERS/CARRIERS. I have said it before and I will say it again, you guys are your own worst enemy.

**On a side note, there are very few things that change regarding the laws between private homes and private property open to the public. When you take property, contract, constitutional and tort law in law school (as I have) you learn a thing or two about property rights.

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Old 05-17-2013, 23:15   #206
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It's not arrogance to respect a property owner's rights. Being open to the public has nothing to do with it. It's private property whether it's open to the public or not. The courts hold property rights higher than anything you can ever do as a gun carrier.

If you open your house up as a business the same question applies. You can't tell me that just because you open up to the public you no longer have the same rights as anyone else who owns property. That the person who owns that property should go above and beyond to force you off his land/out of his building. The legislation, by passing the law, simply said it doesn't reach criminal ramifications until you refuse to leave. That doesn't mean what you're doing isn't wrong. It simply means the state will not pursue the matter criminally if you disobey a sign. The owner has every right to walk right up and ban you from property for disobeying the sign. In the process you leave a negative image on other gun owners/carriers.

AGAIN, YOU LEAVE A NEGATIVE IMAGE ON OTHER GUN OWNERS/CARRIERS. I have said it before and I will say it again, you guys are your own worst enemy.

**On a side note, there are very few things that change regarding the laws between private homes and private property open to the public. When you take property, contract, constitutional and tort law in law school (as I have) you learn a thing or two about property rights.
No right's are violated. Simple as that. Just because you refuse to admit that means....NOTHING!
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Old 05-17-2013, 23:27   #207
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I would refer you to the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution for a clarification of from whence my rights originate. Those documents do NOT grant rights - rather, they recognize that man has certain inalienable rights, and lays restrictions upon what the GOVERNMENT can do to abridge those rights.


In other words, my right to self defense is a natural one, given to me by my Creator, and since firearms were the most effective means of self defense even then, the Founding Fathers ensured the government would not be able to restrict the right to bear arms.

Same with the ability to speak my mind, or any other number of rights that are RECOGNIZED, NOT GRANTED, by the Constitution. You are a rude little man who fails to understand this, or even the faintest hint of polite behavior. That much is evident.
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Old 05-18-2013, 00:36   #208
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I would refer you to the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution for a clarification of from whence my rights originate. Those documents do NOT grant rights - rather, they recognize that man has certain inalienable rights, and lays restrictions upon what the GOVERNMENT can do to abridge those rights.


In other words, my right to self defense is a natural one, given to me by my Creator, and since firearms were the most effective means of self defense even then, the Founding Fathers ensured the government would not be able to restrict the right to bear arms.

Same with the ability to speak my mind, or any other number of rights that are RECOGNIZED, NOT GRANTED, by the Constitution. You are a rude little man who fails to understand this, or even the faintest hint of polite behavior. That much is evident.
Oh the celestial being in the sky...i forgot. I'm sure 9 out of 10 scientists would disagree with you about he existence of such a being.

So are you saying if "God" doesn't exist we have no rights? How can his existence be proven to prove the existence of these rights?

Or Our rights are established, defined, and restricted by the law. Where there is a absolute this is your right and this is not. Rights from the the supreme LAW of the land...the constitution and other laws, the the supreme being of the land. Rights have to be absolute or they are worthless. The law is absolute.

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Old 05-18-2013, 00:53   #209
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Please read the Declaration of Independence, and then tell me if my post sounds familiar.
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Old 05-18-2013, 00:58   #210
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You didn't answer my question...are you saying if "God" doesn't exist we have no rights?

A right that is relative is meaningless, its needs to be absolute. Seems like a simple concept to me. A concept of a God true or not is not an absolute (well it is in the sense that he either exists or does not, but the answer is not something we will every know with any certainty) and the concept of God defiantly is not universal.

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Old 05-18-2013, 02:50   #211
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This isn't a religious debate - I simply paraphrased one of the documents that helped to found our nation. That should have answered your question as to where our rights originate.

Further, one need not believe in God to possess the natural rights that are due each of us by virtue of being alive and free.


Government does not grant rights...they may allow privileges, but the right to free speech or to bear arms is incumbent within us all and needs no law allowing one to exercise such right. That is your problem - you believe that, in order to exist, a right must be granted by the government and codified into law. How pathetic - and that comment is coming from a government official.

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Old 05-18-2013, 06:28   #212
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If he hasn't realized his utter lack of knowledge by now, he's not going to. Only time and a little more experience/maturity is likely to help.
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Please read the Declaration of Independence, and then tell me if my post sounds familiar.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:33   #213
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No right's are violated. Simple as that. Just because you refuse to admit that means....NOTHING!
His (store owner's) right not to have an armed individual in his store when he doesn't want one there is violated. IT'S HIS PROPERTY. Are you really so dense that you can't understand that? Or are you just so self-centered as to have decided only your "rights" matter and to hell with everyone else?
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:33   #214
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Please read the Declaration of Independence, and then tell me if my post sounds familiar.
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His (store owner's) right not to have an armed individual in his store when he doesn't want one there is violated. IT'S HIS PROPERTY. Are you really so dense that you can't understand that? Or are you just so self-centered as to have decided only your "rights" matter and to hell with everyone else?
Your right, there is that what you wanted to hear. Does that help your ego?

Oh wait you're not because the law has established what a store owner must do the EXERCISE his RIGHT, and a sign does not cut it. If the owner is not exercising his right as the law requires I cannot violate the right because he is failing to exercise it.

In the same way I have a right to bear arms. If I don't buy a gun I am not exercising my right and have no claim to infringement on said right.

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Old 05-18-2013, 09:37   #215
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No right's are violated. Simple as that. Just because you refuse to admit that means....NOTHING!
I wonder what a store owner who has posted a sign would say if asked whether he felt his rights are violated by someone entering with a gun despite the sign?
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:40   #216
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...

Oh wait you're not because the law has established what a store owner must do the EXERCISE his RIGHT, and a sign does not cut it. ...
Does the law say that is what he must do to exercise his right or does the law say that is what must be done before a criminal charge can be had?
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:51   #217
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I wonder what a store owner who has posted a sign would say if asked whether he felt his rights are violated by someone entering with a gun despite the sign?
I can say my rights are violated for anything, doesn't mean they were.

Abiding by the sign is not a rights thing...its a respect thing. Sorry though I have a hard time respecting someone or a company who thinks a no guns sign makes them safer. I have a hard time respecting alot of companies based on different corporate actions and policies mostly not even gun related. But most importantly I have a hard time respecting someone or a company who shows be obvious and direct disrespect and has been displayed in this thread.

So tell me why should I respect their sign. You want respect...show it. I show respect to everyone until they don't show me respect, goes for companies as well. You may not like it, well too bad. Because in case you haven;t noticed I don't give a damn what you think. I don't care if you want to look down your nose at me and make yourself feel superior because you don't do "that".

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Old 05-18-2013, 09:58   #218
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In the same way I have a right to bear arms. If I don't buy a gun I am not exercising my right and have no claim to infringement on said right.
Thank you so very much!!!

Sir, he bought, he leased his real property. At that point he placed a sign on the property prohibiting certain behavior. That is, he exercised his Right as a property owner, lessee to control his property.

You exercise your Right to keep and bear arms. He exercises his right to control his property.

The law only provides tools to enforce those Rights. It doesn't say, the Right does not exist until another takes some action.

The Right exists. It exists before you arrive at the threshold of the property.

You exercise your Right by owning and carrying your firearm.

He exercises his right by posting notice about the conditions required for using his property. THAT is his Right. His tool to enforce that Right is the trespass law.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:06   #219
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...He exercises his right to control his property...
Yes by asking those he does not wish to have on his property to leave. A sign does not do that.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:16   #220
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Yes by asking those he does not wish to have on his property to leave. A sign does not do that.
No, the sign CAN'T do that because it's already asked you not to come in to begin with.



Look, nobody's saying they like businesses that prohibit guns, but come on! This is not that hard to understand.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:25   #221
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...

Abiding by the sign is not a rights thing...its a respect thing. ...

So tell me why should I respect their sign. You want respect...show it. I show respect to everyone until they don't show me respect,... Because in case you haven;t noticed I don't give a damn what you think. ....
Once again there seems to be some confusion between "respect" and "criminality." Not giving a damn about what someone else thinks when they disagree with you hardly shows respect. Abiding by the sign is respecting the rights of the owner, even if one disagrees with the owner.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:29   #222
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No, the sign CAN'T do that because it's already asked you not to come in to begin with...
I've never heard a sign ask me to do anything. I can make a sign that says nobody with blond hair is allowed in my store. Are my rights being violated if someone with blonde hair comes in my store...NO. If I want to exercise my right as a property owner the law has established that is done by asking the specific customer/group of customers to leave. A sign is insufficient, a sign is meaningless. A sign has what do we call this...no force.

How can I get you to understand this?

You want to know what the difference between you and me is? I have tried to understand your point of view, but your arguments are just nonsensical and just plain wrong. You on the other hand are clearly unwilling to see that you are wrong.

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Once again there seems to be some confusion between "respect" and "criminality." Not giving a damn about what someone else thinks when they disagree with you hardly shows respect. Abiding by the sign is respecting the rights of the owner, even if one disagrees with the owner.
That's because based on your responses here I've lost all respect for you as a person. That simple. You want to show me disrespect why should I continue to show you respect?

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:35   #223
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I've never heard a sign ask me to do anything. I can make a sign that says nobody with blond hair is allowed in my store. Are my rights being violated if someone with blonde hair comes in my store...NO. If I want to exercise my right as a property owner the law has established that is done by asking the specific customer/group of customers to leave. A sign is insufficient, a sign is meaningless. A sign has what do we call this...no force.

How can I get you to understand this?

You want to know what the difference between you and me is? I have tried to understand your point of view, but your arguments are just nonsensical and just plain wrong. You on the other hand are clearly unwilling to see that you are wrong.
Whatever. Some very logical, well-spoken people (not that I count myself among them) have tried to explain the concept of rights and respect to you but you've done nothing except to insist that everyone but you is wrong and won't admit it. Whether you're being willfully obtuse or simply lack the mental ability to understand that concept I don't know, but I'm tired of beating my head against a red brick wall that insists it's blue. Over and out.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:45   #224
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Whatever. Some very logical, well-spoken people (not that I count myself among them) have tried to explain the concept of rights and respect to you but you've done nothing except to insist that everyone but you is wrong and won't admit it. Whether you're being willfully obtuse or simply lack the mental ability to understand that concept I don't know, but I'm tired of beating my head against a red brick wall that insists it's blue. Over and out.
Your concept of rights has no absolute, and this no value because what you say everyone's rights are will likely differ from your neighbor, ect.

The role of law is this. It give an absolute structure societal norms, and established penalties for ignoring them. This includes not just basic rules and privileges but rights as well.

To say it doesn't is to say rights are not absolute and if that's the case then I guess you are no more right or wrong than I am. Without an absolute nobody can be right or wrong. All points are just as valid as others because my point is valid to me and your to you. And there is no absolute to decide who is right or wrong.

With your thinking I am not wrong in saying I have the right to drive as fast as I want on the road. Because under you way of thinking i have what ever rights I think I have. But then to you I don't have that right. See what kind of mess such thinking could create. Non-absolute rights are meaningless.

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Old 05-18-2013, 10:53   #225
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Your concept of rights has no absolute, and this no value because what you say everyone's rights are will likely differ from your neighbor, ect.

The role of law is this. It give an absolute structure societal norms, and established penalties for ignoring them. This includes not just basic rules and privileges but rights as well.

To say it doesn't is to say rights are not absolute and if that's the case then I guess you are no more right or wrong than I am. Without an absolute nobody can be right or wrong. All points are just as valid as others because my point is valid to me and your to you. And there is no absolute to decide who is right or wrong.

With your thinking I am not wrong in saying I have the right to drive as fast as I want on the road. Because under you way of thinking i have what ever rights I think I have. But then to you I don't have that right. See what kind of mess such thinking could create. Non-absolute rights are meaningless.
LOL WUT? If I was such a relativist why would I be trying to enlighten you at all? Wouldn't that be counter to my worldview? Did I even hint at anything you just belched into your keyboard? Haven't I and many of my peers tried to make the point that a property owner has an "absolute" right to regulate what goes on on his property and signs are one way of doing that? Do you lie because it's not illegal? Do you even understand why I asked that last question? Do you know what you're writing anymore?

Ok, really out this time.
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