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Old 05-14-2013, 17:34   #161
Bruce M
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Are criminal sanctions the only way to protect rights?
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Old 05-14-2013, 22:25   #162
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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
You are one of them.

You may not be violating the law...but you are violating the property owners rights.

Someone one told me "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

I'll also wager that you would throw a fit if someone disregarded your rights the way you do others.
State law restricts their right to keep me off their property to only occur ONCE they have verbally notified me to leave. Simple.

I didn't make it up, the state legislature did. Your sir are wrong, how about instead of continuing to spout the same lies to Grow up, get over and move on.

YOU ARE WRONG! Simple as that, why cant you admit it.

I find your inability to admit when you are wrong troubling on many levels. Is it an inability or unwillingness to comprehend what has been said? Because its in the law, black on right, what their right to restrict people from the property is, it is to VERBALLY ask them to leave, signs are the same as doing nothing.

As the the person who decided to compare this to breaking and entering...why don't you try that and tell us how that works out for you.

At this point its obvious you are as open minded as Obama, who knows maybe you'll take that as a compliment. Or find a way to say I violated your rights by saying that. So here is to violating rights that don't exist, because like I already said they don't have that right until they exercise it by verbally asking me to leave, that's not my opinion, or what I would like in my own little word, that is Washington State Law!

No wonder the anti's say we are unreasonable, it appears some gun owner's actually are.

With that it's beyond obvious to reply anymore is like trying to get a fish to fly. Nature has made it impossible it appears for you to comprehend simple laws and logic.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-14-2013 at 22:34..
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:32   #163
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Correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
You are one of them.

You may not be violating the law...but you are violating the property owners rights.

Someone one told me "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

I'll also wager that you would throw a fit if someone disregarded your rights the way you do others.
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:32   #164
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Not a bad way to operate.
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I respect the wishes of others as I expect them to have decency to do for me.


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Old 05-15-2013, 06:14   #165
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My CCW 2nd Amendment rights are more important.
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:42   #166
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
State law restricts their right to keep me off their property to only occur ONCE they have verbally notified me to leave. Simple.

I didn't make it up, the state legislature did. Your sir are wrong, how about instead of continuing to spout the same lies to Grow up, get over and move on.

YOU ARE WRONG! Simple as that, why cant you admit it.

....

Again that is only if the only way to protect rights is through criminal sanctions. That is also only if the only way to control human behavior is through criminal sanctions.

Suppose the business found out you were carrying in the business against their wishes/rules and instead of seeking remedy in criminal court, they elected to file a civil suit against you? Would they have to ask you to leave and then have you refuse to leave, or would there be a lower threshold in civil court? Is it possible that the mere presence of the sign coupled with the business owner's desire to keep armed folks out of business enough to sustain a civil case?

There is no criminal law that prohibits breaking wind loudly at a wedding dinner. Does that mean that it is acceptable behavior because there are no criminal sanctions?
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:44   #167
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
My CCW 2nd Amendment rights are more important.

More important to you certainly. More important to the business owner?
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:01   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
My CCW 2nd Amendment rights are more important.
No, they are not. If you don't understand this simple concept, I question your ability to have sound judgement while carrying a gun. Other people have rights, as well. The proper course of action is to simply not patronize the business.

But, since we live in a "Me - me - me" society, as evidenced by a number of posters in this thread, I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

And Ryan - demanding that YOUR rights trump the ability of a business owner to ban guns is more indicative of the type of voter you accuse others of being. The whole "What I want is more important than your rights" thing.

Honestly, were I an antigun group reading these posts, I'd copy them, and use them in an attempt to legislate more gun laws. Because it's obvious that a number of gun owners don't have ANY respect for the rights of others. And, Ryan - maybe your perspective will change when you grow up. Obstinacy such as yours is typically only found in the young.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:14   #169
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I always interpret the "Gun Free Zone" signs as a public notice that the owners and management of the establishment you are entering are idiots.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:43   #170
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More important to you certainly. More important to the business owner?
My rights are far more important than the wishes of the store owner.
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:39   #171
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My rights are far more important than the wishes of the store owner.
He has rights that are every bit as inalienable as your own. Who forced you to go to that store in the first place?

Selfish...that's all this is.
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Old 05-15-2013, 13:02   #172
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My rights are far more important than the wishes of the store owner.
If you parse it down fine enough, as the law is wont to do, you will find that a firearm is merely a piece of portable personal property with unique qualities and capabilities.

The person carrying it has the option of taking it or not. the owner of a piece of real property cannot pick it up and take it or not. The firearm carrier has the option to not enter that business or to leave his firearm behind, otherwise he would be forcing his will on the property owner.
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Old 05-15-2013, 14:33   #173
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More important to you certainly. More important to the business owner?
I carry fully concealed. How does the business owner know that his "rights are being violated?"
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Old 05-15-2013, 14:44   #174
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I carry fully concealed. How does the business owner know that his "rights are being violated?"
That is merely a poor excuse for not respecting his rights.

You know the owners wishes and you ignore them to please yourself. "You can do anything until you are caught" seems to be a disease in this Country today.

Thank you Bill Clinton.
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Old 05-15-2013, 14:48   #175
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That is merely a poor excuse for not respecting his rights.

You know the owners wishes and you ignore them to please yourself. "You can do anything until you are caught" seems to be a disease in this Country today.

Thank you Bill Clinton.
I never voted for Clinton. GOP all the way.
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Old 05-15-2013, 15:00   #176
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I never voted for Clinton. GOP all the way.
Yes but you follow his example. He was doing nothing wrong with Monica at all until he got caught.
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Old 05-15-2013, 18:51   #177
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Again that is only if the only way to protect rights is through criminal sanctions. That is also only if the only way to control human behavior is through criminal sanctions.
A swing and a miss, wrong topic. Since their rights aren't being violated there are no sanctions criminal or otherwise.

Let me walk you though this step by step

1) They have the right to restrict guns on their property, this we both agree on.

2) THE LAW dictates how they must exercise that right

3) In WA THE LAW SAYS posting a sign does not constitute exercising that right, only verbally asking someone to leave is. Thus I am only violating their rights IF they ASK me to leave (not post a sign) AND IF I then refuse AFTER being VERBALLY ASKED.

4) If they don't ask me to leave, they are not exercising their right, regardless of the existence of any sign (This is the LAW in my state not something I made up for my benefit)

5) If they do not choose the exercise their right, I cannot violate it. If I choose not to exercise my 4th amendment right by allowing the cops to search my house without a warrant they are not violating my 4th amendment right.

Moral of the story: No rights are violated. Simple as that.

I will be glad to carry where business owners don't exercise their rights. You don't like it, open your business in Texas.
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Old 05-15-2013, 18:59   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
A swing and a miss, wrong topic. Since their rights aren't being violated there are no sanctions criminal or otherwise.

Let me walk you though this step by step

1) They have the right to restrict guns on their property, this we both agree on.

2) THE LAW dictates how they must exercise that right

3) In WA THE LAW SAYS posting a sign does not constitute exercising that right, only verbally asking someone to leave is. Thus I am only violating their rights IF they ASK me to leave (not post a sign) AND IF I then refuse AFTER being VERBALLY ASKED.

4) If they don't ask me to leave, they are not exercising their right, regardless of the existence of any sign (This is the LAW in my state not something I made up for my benefit)

5) If they do not choose the exercise their right, I cannot violate it. If I choose not to exercise my 4th amendment right by allowing the cops to search my house without a warrant they are not violating my 4th amendment right.

Moral of the story: No rights are violated. Simple as that.

I will be glad to carry where business owners don't exercise their rights. You don't like it, open your business in Texas.
Still waiting for you to post this statute...
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Old 05-15-2013, 20:05   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
A swing and a miss, wrong topic. Since their rights aren't being violated there are no sanctions criminal or otherwise.

....

2) THE LAW dictates how they must exercise that right

....
Actually it sounds to me like the law is indicating when an act becomes criminal, or the necessary elements to be met for it to become a crime.

And again, would it be possible for a business owner to entertain a civil action against someone carrying in his store against his wishes without the request and refusal to leave? Is there a different standard in civil court?
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I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.

Last edited by Bruce M; 05-15-2013 at 20:09..
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Old 05-15-2013, 22:43   #180
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Actually it sounds to me like the law is indicating when an act becomes criminal, or the necessary elements to be met for it to become a crime.

And again, would it be possible for a business owner to entertain a civil action against someone carrying in his store against his wishes without the request and refusal to leave? Is there a different standard in civil court?
You could sue for anything. Doesn't mean you're right or will win. Bet you can't find a case where that happened.
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