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Old 05-13-2013, 05:33   #141
newgene
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glockworks View Post
And I usually never read what is posted on the window/door of an establishment unless it is in bold letters and very large. IF they do that, they are going to lose my business. So posting a policy that is not readable unless you stop and read it is not going to get my attention.
Good point. With as many signs as there out there, if you managed to read half of them, it would be amazing. Sometimes, people tuck these signs off in obscure locations because they feel it gives them CYA, while not offending customers who may have a CCW. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. My thought is that if you want to flash a sign, put it out there for the world to see. If you lose customers, that's the consequence. It's only money.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:25   #142
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I OCed into my local VT convenience store and the manager objected strongly. So now I CCW into the store.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:08   #143
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
This is mostly for those of us in states where these signs carry no force of law
What, precisely, is meant by no force of law? No law making it a crime in and of itself?

To me, if a property owner puts up such a sign, even if there's no law making it directly a crime to ignore the sign, the sign itself is an indication that they'd be more likely to bounce me out using trespassing law if they had knowledge that the sign was being ignored.

So why bother? If you just ignore the sign you dampen the negative effect on their business of posting the sign.
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Last edited by void *; 05-13-2013 at 09:09..
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Old 05-13-2013, 15:58   #144
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Didn't read all 6 pages, but did anyone say "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" for this one?
I'll oblige the private property rights of the land/business owners, but I'll also choose to only patronize "gun friendly" places rather than those who prohibit guns on their property.

No gun policy = less money for your business. Period.
Nope.

I would've at least respected the honesty of that answer rather than moving the yard line and attempting to twist facts.

Completely agree with your post.
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Old 05-13-2013, 16:06   #145
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Originally Posted by Glockworks View Post
Luby's Cafeteria Massacre was why I chose to get my CCP (back in the early 90s). A woman who carried left her CCW in her car out of respect for the no carry signs. Her parents died in that massacre as well as many.

And I usually never read what is posted on the window/door of an establishment unless it is in bold letters and very large. IF they do that, they are going to lose my business. So posting a policy that is not readable unless you stop and read it is not going to get my attention.
I'm glad you carry but a sign wasn't the reason she wasn't carrying.

She wasn't carrying because Texas didn't have a CHL law yet and she, being a law abiding citizen, left it in her vehicle.

The woman you're referring too, Suzanna Hupp, went on to lead the charge push through Texas's CHL law and become the U.S. congressional representative for that area from 1996-2006 handily beating all challengers until she chose not to run in 2006.
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Old 05-13-2013, 16:15   #146
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
With all due respect, my safety is more important than some corporate policy.
Then you need to go elsewhere. Your concerns do not trump the rights of the property owner.
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Old 05-13-2013, 16:19   #147
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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
I'm glad you carry but a sign wasn't the reason she wasn't carrying.

She wasn't carrying because Texas didn't have a CHL law yet and she, being a law abiding citizen, left it in her vehicle.

The woman you're referring too, Suzanna Hupp, went on to lead the charge push through Texas's CHL law and become the U.S. congressional representative for that area from 1996-2006 handily beating all challengers until she chose not to run in 2006.

Carry Issues

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Old 05-13-2013, 16:25   #148
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If you give them permission to search without a warrant they are not violating your rights.

.
So did the business owner give you permission to violate his rights? Or did you do it without his knowledge?

If a police officer violates someone's rights, and that person is ignorant as to their rights and don't know the right has been violated, I guess there is no harm.

If they wire tap without a warrant and the subject never knows they were wire tapped, it's "OK".

If they search a car without the owner present and he never knows his car was searched, then his rights weren't violated?
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:00   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
I'm glad you carry but a sign wasn't the reason she wasn't carrying.

She wasn't carrying because Texas didn't have a CHL law yet and she, being a law abiding citizen, left it in her vehicle.

The woman you're referring too, Suzanna Hupp, went on to lead the charge push through Texas's CHL law and become the U.S. congressional representative for that area from 1996-2006 handily beating all challengers until she chose not to run in 2006.
Thanks for correction. Her following the then law assisted in more lives lost most likely as the law left her defenseless along with her parents.

I wonder if there could be a case when an establishment prohibits otherwise CCW folks and a madman like what happened in the Colorado theater (or VT) goes on a rampage. Could the establishment be sued (and win) when they did not provide any additional security while making it easier for the killer to continue shooting unarmed people due to THEIR no CCW policy?
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:06   #150
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I reckon that I can fairly simple view of it all. If it's private property and the owner doesn't want firearms on their establishment, then that's their right. As a consumer/customer, I have the option whether to comply or shop elsewhere.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:26   #151
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Then you need to go elsewhere. Your concerns do not trump the rights of the property owner.
The rights of the property owner. Interesting, Bruce. What rights have I violated if I enter a public business while carrying concealed? In my state (KY) and neighboring state (IN) I in full compliance with the law in doing so. So you're saying the way the law is written is violating his rights? Time to go to the state legislature and change some laws (good luck with that..ha).

He has opened his doors to the public, and he has the right to ask me to leave. If I carry a gun onto his premises, I haven't violated any of his rights. When you open your doors to the public, you need to go by the laws of the state.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:32   #152
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I reckon that I can fairly simple view of it all. If it's private property and the owner doesn't want firearms on their establishment, then that's their right. As a consumer/customer, I have the option whether to comply or shop elsewhere.
Wow. People here don't understand rights. Yes it is their right to not want firearms in their establishment. Sure. They don't want them. But I have the legal right to bring them there. Guess what? The Law is on my side. They have the right to ask me to leave. And I would.


They have right to want whatever they want to want. Sure, they can want it all day long.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:04   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
The rights of the property owner. Interesting, Bruce. What rights have I violated if I enter a public business while carrying concealed? In my state (KY) and neighboring state (IN) I in full compliance with the law in doing so. So you're saying the way the law is written is violating his rights? Time to go to the state legislature and change some laws (good luck with that..ha).

He has opened his doors to the public, and he has the right to ask me to leave. If I carry a gun onto his premises, I haven't violated any of his rights. When you open your doors to the public, you need to go by the laws of the state.
There is a store/business employee by the door. When you cross the threshold into the business, the employee asks, "Do you have any firearms on you, are you carrying a gun?"

How will you respond?
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Last edited by RussP; 05-14-2013 at 09:53..
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:18   #154
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Wow. People here don't understand rights. Yes it is their right to not want firearms in their establishment. Sure. They don't want them. But I have the legal right to bring them there. Guess what? The Law is on my side. They have the right to ask me to leave. And I would.


They have right to want whatever they want to want. Sure, they can want it all day long.
Actually, you don't.

(17) The owner, business or commercial lessee, or manager of a private business enterprise, day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894 or certified or licensed family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, or a health-care facility licensed under KRS Chapter 216B, except facilities renting or leasing housing, may prohibit persons holding concealed deadly weapon licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer or business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying concealed weapons is prohibited. Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice and Public Safety Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction. Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.


So, it's not criminal - but it is illegal. And, it is NOT your right to carry a gun when the property owner wishes otherwise. Merely because there is no CRIMINAL penalty, doesn't mean it's not illegal. You can find the full text of the above statute at http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/110.PDF

Last edited by wprebeck; 05-14-2013 at 09:18..
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:28   #155
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Carry it!

Nothing I can really add that hasn't been said already. Carry it in, finish your business and strongly consider never visiting that place again! Oh and did I mention to "tell a friend!"
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:33   #156
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Wow. People here don't understand rights. Yes it is their right to not want firearms in their establishment. Sure. They don't want them. But I have the legal right to bring them there. Guess what? The Law is on my side. They have the right to ask me to leave. And I would.


They have right to want whatever they want to want. Sure, they can want it all day long.
You are one of them.

You may not be violating the law...but you are violating the property owners rights.

Someone one told me "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

I'll also wager that you would throw a fit if someone disregarded your rights the way you do others.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:46   #157
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Originally Posted by Glockworks View Post
Thanks for correction. Her following the then law assisted in more lives lost most likely as the law left her defenseless along with her parents.

I wonder if there could be a case when an establishment prohibits otherwise CCW folks and a madman like what happened in the Colorado theater (or VT) goes on a rampage. Could the establishment be sued (and win) when they did not provide any additional security while making it easier for the killer to continue shooting unarmed people due to THEIR no CCW policy?
It's an interesting thought.

I tend to believe it would be a loser civilly though.

The fact that you chose to enter the theater knowing that you couldn't carry would play a big part and, IIRC, the theater had off duty law enforcement working security as well.

I would imagine the theater's attorneys arguement going something like:

"My client posted signs banning ANY firearms on the property and went above and beyond by employing off duty police officers to further protect his customers at considerable expense.

My client regrets ANY loss of life and recognizes that the loss of life might have been much greater if not for the police officers they hired."

I will say that, IMO, they did everything they could, short of allowing CCW on property, to protect their customers.

I don't know where I would come down on liability if I was on the jury and I'm decidedly pro CCW.

It would be a hard call.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:03   #158
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.[/i]
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/110.PDF
Around here, that's not nearly as serious as lighting a cigarette.
It's about equivalent to "no shirt, no shoes, no service" or "no pets."
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Old 05-14-2013, 17:23   #159
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I find the mentality of RyanWA very disturbing and his logic completely nonsensical. It is that mentality that fuels the fire of contempt the anti-2nd amendment people have for us that are pro 2nd amendment.

In my opinion his logic is an embarrassment to the pro-gun society. I would like to see in writing his claim that signs have no legal authority.

What about the stores sign that post the hours of operation? If a sign says the store closes at 10:00PM does he recognize that sign or does he show up at a later hour and attempt to pick the lock? Then when the police arrive he says " yeah I saw the sign but no one told me verbally I can't come in after 10:00PM"

I know that analogy seems far fetched but so does RyanWA's viewpoint on the sign ideology. Another: Does he drive over the speed limit disregarding the signs and when pulled over tell the officer "well officer, until now no leo verbally told me I can't drive this fast..."

The mentality he is demonstrating is not only an embarrassment to us - it demonstrates a highly questionable mental state of logic and ability to reason.

From this point, I will not dignify his future post with any reply as it appears to be an exercise in futility.
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Old 05-14-2013, 17:25   #160
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