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Old 05-14-2013, 08:26   #151
Louisville Glocker
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Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Then you need to go elsewhere. Your concerns do not trump the rights of the property owner.
The rights of the property owner. Interesting, Bruce. What rights have I violated if I enter a public business while carrying concealed? In my state (KY) and neighboring state (IN) I in full compliance with the law in doing so. So you're saying the way the law is written is violating his rights? Time to go to the state legislature and change some laws (good luck with that..ha).

He has opened his doors to the public, and he has the right to ask me to leave. If I carry a gun onto his premises, I haven't violated any of his rights. When you open your doors to the public, you need to go by the laws of the state.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:32   #152
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Originally Posted by jdavionic View Post
I reckon that I can fairly simple view of it all. If it's private property and the owner doesn't want firearms on their establishment, then that's their right. As a consumer/customer, I have the option whether to comply or shop elsewhere.
Wow. People here don't understand rights. Yes it is their right to not want firearms in their establishment. Sure. They don't want them. But I have the legal right to bring them there. Guess what? The Law is on my side. They have the right to ask me to leave. And I would.


They have right to want whatever they want to want. Sure, they can want it all day long.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:04   #153
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
The rights of the property owner. Interesting, Bruce. What rights have I violated if I enter a public business while carrying concealed? In my state (KY) and neighboring state (IN) I in full compliance with the law in doing so. So you're saying the way the law is written is violating his rights? Time to go to the state legislature and change some laws (good luck with that..ha).

He has opened his doors to the public, and he has the right to ask me to leave. If I carry a gun onto his premises, I haven't violated any of his rights. When you open your doors to the public, you need to go by the laws of the state.
There is a store/business employee by the door. When you cross the threshold into the business, the employee asks, "Do you have any firearms on you, are you carrying a gun?"

How will you respond?
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Last edited by RussP; 05-14-2013 at 09:53..
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:18   #154
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Wow. People here don't understand rights. Yes it is their right to not want firearms in their establishment. Sure. They don't want them. But I have the legal right to bring them there. Guess what? The Law is on my side. They have the right to ask me to leave. And I would.


They have right to want whatever they want to want. Sure, they can want it all day long.
Actually, you don't.

(17) The owner, business or commercial lessee, or manager of a private business enterprise, day-care center as defined in KRS 199.894 or certified or licensed family child-care home as defined in KRS 199.8982, or a health-care facility licensed under KRS Chapter 216B, except facilities renting or leasing housing, may prohibit persons holding concealed deadly weapon licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding concealed deadly weapons licenses from carrying concealed deadly weapons on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer or business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying concealed weapons is prohibited. Possession of weapons, or ammunition, or both in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the weapons, or ammunition, or both are not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. A private but not a public employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employer, but may not prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed deadly weapons license from carrying concealed deadly weapons, or ammunition, or both in vehicles owned by the employee, except that the Justice and Public Safety Cabinet may prohibit an employee from carrying any weapons, or ammunition, or both other than the weapons, or ammunition, or both issued or authorized to be used by the employee of the cabinet, in a vehicle while transporting persons under the employee's supervision or jurisdiction. Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.


So, it's not criminal - but it is illegal. And, it is NOT your right to carry a gun when the property owner wishes otherwise. Merely because there is no CRIMINAL penalty, doesn't mean it's not illegal. You can find the full text of the above statute at http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/110.PDF

Last edited by wprebeck; 05-14-2013 at 09:18..
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:28   #155
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Carry it!

Nothing I can really add that hasn't been said already. Carry it in, finish your business and strongly consider never visiting that place again! Oh and did I mention to "tell a friend!"
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:33   #156
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Wow. People here don't understand rights. Yes it is their right to not want firearms in their establishment. Sure. They don't want them. But I have the legal right to bring them there. Guess what? The Law is on my side. They have the right to ask me to leave. And I would.


They have right to want whatever they want to want. Sure, they can want it all day long.
You are one of them.

You may not be violating the law...but you are violating the property owners rights.

Someone one told me "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

I'll also wager that you would throw a fit if someone disregarded your rights the way you do others.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:46   #157
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Thanks for correction. Her following the then law assisted in more lives lost most likely as the law left her defenseless along with her parents.

I wonder if there could be a case when an establishment prohibits otherwise CCW folks and a madman like what happened in the Colorado theater (or VT) goes on a rampage. Could the establishment be sued (and win) when they did not provide any additional security while making it easier for the killer to continue shooting unarmed people due to THEIR no CCW policy?
It's an interesting thought.

I tend to believe it would be a loser civilly though.

The fact that you chose to enter the theater knowing that you couldn't carry would play a big part and, IIRC, the theater had off duty law enforcement working security as well.

I would imagine the theater's attorneys arguement going something like:

"My client posted signs banning ANY firearms on the property and went above and beyond by employing off duty police officers to further protect his customers at considerable expense.

My client regrets ANY loss of life and recognizes that the loss of life might have been much greater if not for the police officers they hired."

I will say that, IMO, they did everything they could, short of allowing CCW on property, to protect their customers.

I don't know where I would come down on liability if I was on the jury and I'm decidedly pro CCW.

It would be a hard call.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:03   #158
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Carrying of a concealed weapon, or ammunition, or both in a location specified in this subsection by a license holder shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial from the premises or removal from the premises, and, if an employee of an employer, disciplinary measures by the employer.[/i]
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/KRS/237-00/110.PDF
Around here, that's not nearly as serious as lighting a cigarette.
It's about equivalent to "no shirt, no shoes, no service" or "no pets."
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Old 05-14-2013, 17:23   #159
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I find the mentality of RyanWA very disturbing and his logic completely nonsensical. It is that mentality that fuels the fire of contempt the anti-2nd amendment people have for us that are pro 2nd amendment.

In my opinion his logic is an embarrassment to the pro-gun society. I would like to see in writing his claim that signs have no legal authority.

What about the stores sign that post the hours of operation? If a sign says the store closes at 10:00PM does he recognize that sign or does he show up at a later hour and attempt to pick the lock? Then when the police arrive he says " yeah I saw the sign but no one told me verbally I can't come in after 10:00PM"

I know that analogy seems far fetched but so does RyanWA's viewpoint on the sign ideology. Another: Does he drive over the speed limit disregarding the signs and when pulled over tell the officer "well officer, until now no leo verbally told me I can't drive this fast..."

The mentality he is demonstrating is not only an embarrassment to us - it demonstrates a highly questionable mental state of logic and ability to reason.

From this point, I will not dignify his future post with any reply as it appears to be an exercise in futility.
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Last edited by Glockman454; 05-14-2013 at 20:49.. Reason: SPELLING
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Old 05-14-2013, 17:25   #160
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I respect the wishes of others as I expect them to have decency to do for me.


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Old 05-14-2013, 17:34   #161
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Are criminal sanctions the only way to protect rights?
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Old 05-14-2013, 22:25   #162
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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
You are one of them.

You may not be violating the law...but you are violating the property owners rights.

Someone one told me "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

I'll also wager that you would throw a fit if someone disregarded your rights the way you do others.
State law restricts their right to keep me off their property to only occur ONCE they have verbally notified me to leave. Simple.

I didn't make it up, the state legislature did. Your sir are wrong, how about instead of continuing to spout the same lies to Grow up, get over and move on.

YOU ARE WRONG! Simple as that, why cant you admit it.

I find your inability to admit when you are wrong troubling on many levels. Is it an inability or unwillingness to comprehend what has been said? Because its in the law, black on right, what their right to restrict people from the property is, it is to VERBALLY ask them to leave, signs are the same as doing nothing.

As the the person who decided to compare this to breaking and entering...why don't you try that and tell us how that works out for you.

At this point its obvious you are as open minded as Obama, who knows maybe you'll take that as a compliment. Or find a way to say I violated your rights by saying that. So here is to violating rights that don't exist, because like I already said they don't have that right until they exercise it by verbally asking me to leave, that's not my opinion, or what I would like in my own little word, that is Washington State Law!

No wonder the anti's say we are unreasonable, it appears some gun owner's actually are.

With that it's beyond obvious to reply anymore is like trying to get a fish to fly. Nature has made it impossible it appears for you to comprehend simple laws and logic.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-14-2013 at 22:34..
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:32   #163
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Correct.
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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
You are one of them.

You may not be violating the law...but you are violating the property owners rights.

Someone one told me "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".

I'll also wager that you would throw a fit if someone disregarded your rights the way you do others.
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:32   #164
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Not a bad way to operate.
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I respect the wishes of others as I expect them to have decency to do for me.


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Old 05-15-2013, 06:14   #165
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My CCW 2nd Amendment rights are more important.
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:42   #166
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
State law restricts their right to keep me off their property to only occur ONCE they have verbally notified me to leave. Simple.

I didn't make it up, the state legislature did. Your sir are wrong, how about instead of continuing to spout the same lies to Grow up, get over and move on.

YOU ARE WRONG! Simple as that, why cant you admit it.

....

Again that is only if the only way to protect rights is through criminal sanctions. That is also only if the only way to control human behavior is through criminal sanctions.

Suppose the business found out you were carrying in the business against their wishes/rules and instead of seeking remedy in criminal court, they elected to file a civil suit against you? Would they have to ask you to leave and then have you refuse to leave, or would there be a lower threshold in civil court? Is it possible that the mere presence of the sign coupled with the business owner's desire to keep armed folks out of business enough to sustain a civil case?

There is no criminal law that prohibits breaking wind loudly at a wedding dinner. Does that mean that it is acceptable behavior because there are no criminal sanctions?
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Old 05-15-2013, 06:44   #167
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
My CCW 2nd Amendment rights are more important.

More important to you certainly. More important to the business owner?
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:01   #168
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
My CCW 2nd Amendment rights are more important.
No, they are not. If you don't understand this simple concept, I question your ability to have sound judgement while carrying a gun. Other people have rights, as well. The proper course of action is to simply not patronize the business.

But, since we live in a "Me - me - me" society, as evidenced by a number of posters in this thread, I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

And Ryan - demanding that YOUR rights trump the ability of a business owner to ban guns is more indicative of the type of voter you accuse others of being. The whole "What I want is more important than your rights" thing.

Honestly, were I an antigun group reading these posts, I'd copy them, and use them in an attempt to legislate more gun laws. Because it's obvious that a number of gun owners don't have ANY respect for the rights of others. And, Ryan - maybe your perspective will change when you grow up. Obstinacy such as yours is typically only found in the young.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:14   #169
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I always interpret the "Gun Free Zone" signs as a public notice that the owners and management of the establishment you are entering are idiots.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:43   #170
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More important to you certainly. More important to the business owner?
My rights are far more important than the wishes of the store owner.
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Old 05-15-2013, 08:39   #171
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My rights are far more important than the wishes of the store owner.
He has rights that are every bit as inalienable as your own. Who forced you to go to that store in the first place?

Selfish...that's all this is.
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Old 05-15-2013, 13:02   #172
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My rights are far more important than the wishes of the store owner.
If you parse it down fine enough, as the law is wont to do, you will find that a firearm is merely a piece of portable personal property with unique qualities and capabilities.

The person carrying it has the option of taking it or not. the owner of a piece of real property cannot pick it up and take it or not. The firearm carrier has the option to not enter that business or to leave his firearm behind, otherwise he would be forcing his will on the property owner.
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Old 05-15-2013, 14:33   #173
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More important to you certainly. More important to the business owner?
I carry fully concealed. How does the business owner know that his "rights are being violated?"
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Old 05-15-2013, 14:44   #174
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I carry fully concealed. How does the business owner know that his "rights are being violated?"
That is merely a poor excuse for not respecting his rights.

You know the owners wishes and you ignore them to please yourself. "You can do anything until you are caught" seems to be a disease in this Country today.

Thank you Bill Clinton.
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Old 05-15-2013, 14:48   #175
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That is merely a poor excuse for not respecting his rights.

You know the owners wishes and you ignore them to please yourself. "You can do anything until you are caught" seems to be a disease in this Country today.

Thank you Bill Clinton.
I never voted for Clinton. GOP all the way.
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