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Old 05-12-2013, 05:27   #121
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
The law says it has to be verbal, not a sign. Why? Signs can be missed, not understood for example if I could not read English, or may not even be visible it it somehow got covered up. That's why states that do give force of law to no gun signs have strict requirements the sign must follow to be valid. Not my fault Washington avoids that by saying to exercise their right they have to verbally ask me to leave.
I once rented a store front to a business owner. He sold and repaired telephones. He was a great person, very successful businessman. He was mute. Signs were his method of communication. Since you ignore non-verbal communication, signs, explain how you would handle that.
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Old 05-12-2013, 05:59   #122
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I once rented a store front to a business owner. He sold and repaired telephones. He was a great person, very successful businessman. He was mute. Signs were his method of communication. Since you ignore non-verbal communication, signs, explain how you would handle that.
So being Deaf, I just stick my gun in the person's face and point to the door? Though you do bring up a good point that was also addressed in my CCW class. That is, if deadly force is justified, no warning, shots, verbal or otherwise is required. One reason that stupidity publicity stunt at a movie theater discussed here is so dangerous. If the guy walked into the actual dark theater and stood and the front of the theater and waived the gun around, assuming concealed carry was allowed or I misseed the no carry sign walking in, I would have been justified shooting the guy because to let him fire first is too late and I might be dead by then...
Everyone would do well on this board to remember that not everyone on ths board can speak or hear, or read and understand English etc. Yes there are also documented cases of Police shooting Deaf persons and non English speaking persons for failure to comply with verbal orders.

Last edited by soutthpaw; 05-12-2013 at 06:00..
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Old 05-12-2013, 09:36   #123
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If this were residential property, I would say everyone should honor the sign 100%, without question. However, this is commercially zoned property, entitled to all of the commerce benefits of state, local, and federal licensing. With that said, if the weapon is concealed legally, I do not see how one can put up a sign to remove that right. If that were the case, you could put up a sign to deny business or invoke your will on any range of topics.

For example, at my home, if I want to screen who can or cannot come in, that is up to me. At a commercially licensed business, I don't have that right. Discrimination laws prevent that. The key factor that is missing from this discussion is the fact that this location is permitted for business based on legal compliance with all laws.

Remember, your tax dollars are used to run the offices that issue the permits for these shops to conduct business. As fast as one can say, "If you don't like the sign, don't do business there, " one can also say, "If you don't want to respect the rights of CC permit holders, you don't have to sell anything." This is not a private property issue. This is a commercial business issue.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:01   #124
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This is mostly for those of us in states where these signs carry no force of law, but what do you do at private property that has a no guns allowed sign.

Personally, I have not encountered this, but my thought is to just go in with my concealed firearm anyway. The property owner can always ask me to leave, and I would if they asked. Curious who else does/would do this if its legal to in your state as it in in WA.

Do you leave your firearm in the car and go in?

Do you go somewhere else? If so do you write the business owner telling them you won;t shop there because of that?
For what it's worth here is my take on the issue. Firstly on your claim and I quote "This is mostly for those of us in states where these signs carry no force of law". If I am wrong I would like to see it written in the law books where any sign on private property prohibiting no firearm carry (in any State) is not enforceable by law. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% pro 2nd amendment, but private property is simply that - private property and they should be allowed to prohibit firearms.

As far as if I would comply - I would likely be hypocritical and go in armed anyway as long as I felt sure they could not see that I was carrying. Private property business has the same right you do in regards to your home. It is your choice who you let through the door and the same goes for private business. If I am wrong please show me with credible legal laws.

On a side issue, In my State open carry is legal, but even though I may ignore such sign if my pistol is thoroughly concealed, I would never carry open in such scenario. In fact I never carry open period except for when camping or hiking in the boonies.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:03   #125
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I am not doing anything wrong.
Voluntarily giving money to obvious antis is wrong in my book.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:07   #126
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Such nice people here. They believe they have the only rights in the world - businesses have none at all. Ever wonder if you're doing any good for the pro-gun movement?

You're not. All the people who're on the fence will see, is a bunch of egotistical clowns who have no respect for the wishes of others.

Oh, and LG - add jails to your list. Unless you'd like to visit the inside, that is. Carrying is a no-no.
I believe in obeying the law. The signs carry no weight of law. Thus, I am in complete compliance by carrying into a business that has the sign. Sorry, can't please everyone. Concealed carry means the weapon is concealed. The person who doesn't like guns will never know...If something bad happens, sorry, I prefer to have a weapon more than my hands (although I train to be good with my hands, elbows, legs, feet, etc additionally). If protecting innocent life against serious bodily harm is necessary, then yeah, the business owner will find out I was carrying.

And yes, you are correct, no guns allowed in jails. But unless you're LE or locked up, it is a pretty unusual place to be visiting. Kind of a no-brainer that you can't carry there. Day care and schools are where I end up on a regular basis (three boys 1-10 in age).

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Old 05-12-2013, 13:41   #127
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
...

Simply put... I CANNOT violate a right they are not executing as prescribed by law.
Rights can be upheld by criminal sanctions when a violation occurs but there are also other, less severe ways that
rights can be protected. If the only protection of rights was by criminal sanction there would be no violations of the Fourth Amendment except those that result in criminal sanctions or potential criminal sanctions against the police when the police violate someone's Fourth Amendment rights.
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Old 05-12-2013, 13:58   #128
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Rights can be upheld by criminal sanctions when a violation occurs but there are also other, less severe ways that
rights can be protected. If the only protection of rights was by criminal sanction there would be no violations of the Fourth Amendment except those that result in criminal sanctions or potential criminal sanctions against the police when the police violate someone's Fourth Amendment rights.
And according to Ryan's logic the police haven't violated anyone's rights unless the "victim" is aware of the violation. If they don't get caught there was no violation.
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:10   #129
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And according to Ryan's logic the police haven't violated anyone's rights unless the "victim" is aware of the violation. If they don't get caught there was no violation.
If you give them permission to search without a warrant they are not violating your rights.

In the same way if the owner has granted the right for the general public to be on their property. If they don't ask me to leave I am not violating their rights.

NO RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED, i don't how how many other ways to explain this. I don't think you are willing to consider that I might actually be right though.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-12-2013 at 15:12..
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:23   #130
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If you give them permission to search without a warrant they are not violating your rights.

In the same way if the owner has granted the right for the general public to be on their property. If they don't ask me to leave I am not violating their rights.

NO RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED, i don't how how many other ways to explain this. I don't think you are willing to consider that I might actually be right though.
I understand you just fine; in fact, I understood you the first time. I just hold a very different view of the property owner's authority on his property.

Your position is that rights can only be invoked verbally. Mine is that any reasonable expression of the owner's wishes is to be honored. For another example, if I were to find you in his yard at 0200, your claim that "he didn't tell me to leave" would not impress me nearly as much as the fence with the "No Trespassing" signs.
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:37   #131
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
I understand you just fine; in fact, I understood you the first time. I just hold a very different view of the property owner's authority on his property.

Your position is that rights can only be invoked verbally. Mine is that any reasonable expression of the owner's wishes is to be honored. For another example, if I were to find you in his yard at 0200, your claim that "he didn't tell me to leave" would not impress me nearly as much as the fence with the "No Trespassing" signs.
Whether or not is has to be verbal or if a sign will suffice has been determined by the state, the state says by law it HAS TO BE verbal...simple. Therefore no rights are violated.

Now what you could claim, is that common courtesy would dictate I just abide by the sign. My response to that however is common courtesy is a respect thing. But in my opinion (and this is just that an opinion, yours will likely differ) if they restrict guns on their property I find that disrespectful and I find it hard to respect a company (or person for that matter) that fails to show me respect. Not to mention my life is more important to me that giving a common courtesy in this case (again IMO). That's just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree, I imagine you will. But please don't tell me I am violating their rights, because I am not.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-12-2013 at 15:39..
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:51   #132
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I'd treat such a sign the same way I'd treat a "No Colored Allowed" sign (if such things as anti-discrimination laws did not exist.) Ignore it if they had something I needed or wanted and it was inconvenient to go someplace else and next time go someplace else with my money and spend it where it was appreciated the next opportunity.

Can you imagine the _____storm that would erupt if someone put up a "No Democrats or Liberals" sign on their store's door?
"If you voted for Barack Obama your business is not welcome at Southwest Shooting Authority," the ad reads. "You have proven that you are not responsible enough to own a firearm."

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...voters-allowed
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:54   #133
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I don't have to make up the rules, that's already been done.

Our republic isn't much different than a democracy. The representatives are voted on by us to represent us. It's almost as good as just a direct vote but much easier to manage. Just look at how complicated voting for the representatives is. Could you imagine doing that for every proposed law?

Regardless of how you want to view rights either created by or restricted by the law. Fact is the law restricts (or sets) the rights of the property owner to only have the ability to ask me to leave once on the property, they can't just set a sign and forget it.
I'm glad I'm old so I don't have to suffer the full brunt of you self-serving new agers.
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:43   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newgene View Post
If this were residential property, I would say everyone should honor the sign 100%, without question. However, this is commercially zoned property, entitled to all of the commerce benefits of state, local, and federal licensing. With that said, if the weapon is concealed legally, I do not see how one can put up a sign to remove that right. If that were the case, you could put up a sign to deny business or invoke your will on any range of topics.

For example, at my home, if I want to screen who can or cannot come in, that is up to me. At a commercially licensed business, I don't have that right. Discrimination laws prevent that. The key factor that is missing from this discussion is the fact that this location is permitted for business based on legal compliance with all laws.

Remember, your tax dollars are used to run the offices that issue the permits for these shops to conduct business. As fast as one can say, "If you don't like the sign, don't do business there, " one can also say, "If you don't want to respect the rights of CC permit holders, you don't have to sell anything." This is not a private property issue. This is a commercial business issue.

Cite your source please.
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:46   #135
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
Whether or not is has to be verbal or if a sign will suffice has been determined by the state, the state says by law it HAS TO BE verbal...simple. Therefore no rights are violated.

Now what you could claim, is that common courtesy would dictate I just abide by the sign. My response to that however is common courtesy is a respect thing. But in my opinion (and this is just that an opinion, yours will likely differ) if they restrict guns on their property I find that disrespectful and I find it hard to respect a company (or person for that matter) that fails to show me respect. Not to mention my life is more important to me that giving a common courtesy in this case (again IMO). That's just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree, I imagine you will. But please don't tell me I am violating their rights, because I am not.
Please post this section of code. I can't find it.
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:46   #136
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I'd treat such a sign the same way I'd treat a "No Colored Allowed" sign (if such things as anti-discrimination laws did not exist.) Ignore it if they had something I needed or wanted and it was inconvenient to go someplace else and next time go someplace else with my money and spend it where it was appreciated the next opportunity.

Can you imagine the _____storm that would erupt if someone put up a "No Democrats or Liberals" sign on their store's door?
This.
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Old 05-12-2013, 19:02   #137
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Cite your source please.
Do you really need a source that tells you there are laws against discrimination? BTW, there are quite a few.
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Old 05-12-2013, 20:53   #138
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Do you really need a source that tells you there are laws against discrimination? BTW, there are quite a few.
There are many laws against discrimination.

Who those laws apply to and who they protect are often misunderstood.

I was seeking his opinion.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:33   #139
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Didn't read all 6 pages, but did anyone say "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" for this one?

I'll oblige the private property rights of the land/business owners, but I'll also choose to only patronize "gun friendly" places rather than those who prohibit guns on their property.

No gun policy = less money for your business. Period.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:10   #140
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A belief that their wants and desires are fundamentally more important than those of others. A belief that only their rights and property are sovereiqn, coupled with a lack of concern for the rights and property of others. Inability to differentiate between can and should. Are we talking about permit holders or career criminals? I wonder, does a lowlife who claims their theft or trespass was because they'd surely starve but for access to your possessions or property have any more of a valid point than a ccw'er who pretends that the threat of death is so imminent that they would surely perish should they not retain their pistol while visiting a posted home or business.
Luby's Cafeteria Massacre was why I chose to get my CCP (back in the early 90s). A woman who carried left her CCW in her car out of respect for the no carry signs. Her parents died in that massacre as well as many.

And I usually never read what is posted on the window/door of an establishment unless it is in bold letters and very large. IF they do that, they are going to lose my business. So posting a policy that is not readable unless you stop and read it is not going to get my attention.
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Last edited by Glockworks; 05-13-2013 at 04:15..
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