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Old 05-12-2013, 10:07   #126
Louisville Glocker
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Such nice people here. They believe they have the only rights in the world - businesses have none at all. Ever wonder if you're doing any good for the pro-gun movement?

You're not. All the people who're on the fence will see, is a bunch of egotistical clowns who have no respect for the wishes of others.

Oh, and LG - add jails to your list. Unless you'd like to visit the inside, that is. Carrying is a no-no.
I believe in obeying the law. The signs carry no weight of law. Thus, I am in complete compliance by carrying into a business that has the sign. Sorry, can't please everyone. Concealed carry means the weapon is concealed. The person who doesn't like guns will never know...If something bad happens, sorry, I prefer to have a weapon more than my hands (although I train to be good with my hands, elbows, legs, feet, etc additionally). If protecting innocent life against serious bodily harm is necessary, then yeah, the business owner will find out I was carrying.

And yes, you are correct, no guns allowed in jails. But unless you're LE or locked up, it is a pretty unusual place to be visiting. Kind of a no-brainer that you can't carry there. Day care and schools are where I end up on a regular basis (three boys 1-10 in age).

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Old 05-12-2013, 13:41   #127
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
...

Simply put... I CANNOT violate a right they are not executing as prescribed by law.
Rights can be upheld by criminal sanctions when a violation occurs but there are also other, less severe ways that
rights can be protected. If the only protection of rights was by criminal sanction there would be no violations of the Fourth Amendment except those that result in criminal sanctions or potential criminal sanctions against the police when the police violate someone's Fourth Amendment rights.
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Old 05-12-2013, 13:58   #128
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Rights can be upheld by criminal sanctions when a violation occurs but there are also other, less severe ways that
rights can be protected. If the only protection of rights was by criminal sanction there would be no violations of the Fourth Amendment except those that result in criminal sanctions or potential criminal sanctions against the police when the police violate someone's Fourth Amendment rights.
And according to Ryan's logic the police haven't violated anyone's rights unless the "victim" is aware of the violation. If they don't get caught there was no violation.
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:10   #129
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And according to Ryan's logic the police haven't violated anyone's rights unless the "victim" is aware of the violation. If they don't get caught there was no violation.
If you give them permission to search without a warrant they are not violating your rights.

In the same way if the owner has granted the right for the general public to be on their property. If they don't ask me to leave I am not violating their rights.

NO RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED, i don't how how many other ways to explain this. I don't think you are willing to consider that I might actually be right though.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-12-2013 at 15:12..
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:23   #130
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If you give them permission to search without a warrant they are not violating your rights.

In the same way if the owner has granted the right for the general public to be on their property. If they don't ask me to leave I am not violating their rights.

NO RIGHTS ARE VIOLATED, i don't how how many other ways to explain this. I don't think you are willing to consider that I might actually be right though.
I understand you just fine; in fact, I understood you the first time. I just hold a very different view of the property owner's authority on his property.

Your position is that rights can only be invoked verbally. Mine is that any reasonable expression of the owner's wishes is to be honored. For another example, if I were to find you in his yard at 0200, your claim that "he didn't tell me to leave" would not impress me nearly as much as the fence with the "No Trespassing" signs.
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Old 05-12-2013, 15:37   #131
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I understand you just fine; in fact, I understood you the first time. I just hold a very different view of the property owner's authority on his property.

Your position is that rights can only be invoked verbally. Mine is that any reasonable expression of the owner's wishes is to be honored. For another example, if I were to find you in his yard at 0200, your claim that "he didn't tell me to leave" would not impress me nearly as much as the fence with the "No Trespassing" signs.
Whether or not is has to be verbal or if a sign will suffice has been determined by the state, the state says by law it HAS TO BE verbal...simple. Therefore no rights are violated.

Now what you could claim, is that common courtesy would dictate I just abide by the sign. My response to that however is common courtesy is a respect thing. But in my opinion (and this is just that an opinion, yours will likely differ) if they restrict guns on their property I find that disrespectful and I find it hard to respect a company (or person for that matter) that fails to show me respect. Not to mention my life is more important to me that giving a common courtesy in this case (again IMO). That's just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree, I imagine you will. But please don't tell me I am violating their rights, because I am not.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-12-2013 at 15:39..
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:51   #132
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I'd treat such a sign the same way I'd treat a "No Colored Allowed" sign (if such things as anti-discrimination laws did not exist.) Ignore it if they had something I needed or wanted and it was inconvenient to go someplace else and next time go someplace else with my money and spend it where it was appreciated the next opportunity.

Can you imagine the _____storm that would erupt if someone put up a "No Democrats or Liberals" sign on their store's door?
"If you voted for Barack Obama your business is not welcome at Southwest Shooting Authority," the ad reads. "You have proven that you are not responsible enough to own a firearm."

http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.co...voters-allowed
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Old 05-12-2013, 16:54   #133
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I don't have to make up the rules, that's already been done.

Our republic isn't much different than a democracy. The representatives are voted on by us to represent us. It's almost as good as just a direct vote but much easier to manage. Just look at how complicated voting for the representatives is. Could you imagine doing that for every proposed law?

Regardless of how you want to view rights either created by or restricted by the law. Fact is the law restricts (or sets) the rights of the property owner to only have the ability to ask me to leave once on the property, they can't just set a sign and forget it.
I'm glad I'm old so I don't have to suffer the full brunt of you self-serving new agers.
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:43   #134
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If this were residential property, I would say everyone should honor the sign 100%, without question. However, this is commercially zoned property, entitled to all of the commerce benefits of state, local, and federal licensing. With that said, if the weapon is concealed legally, I do not see how one can put up a sign to remove that right. If that were the case, you could put up a sign to deny business or invoke your will on any range of topics.

For example, at my home, if I want to screen who can or cannot come in, that is up to me. At a commercially licensed business, I don't have that right. Discrimination laws prevent that. The key factor that is missing from this discussion is the fact that this location is permitted for business based on legal compliance with all laws.

Remember, your tax dollars are used to run the offices that issue the permits for these shops to conduct business. As fast as one can say, "If you don't like the sign, don't do business there, " one can also say, "If you don't want to respect the rights of CC permit holders, you don't have to sell anything." This is not a private property issue. This is a commercial business issue.

Cite your source please.
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Old 05-12-2013, 17:46   #135
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
Whether or not is has to be verbal or if a sign will suffice has been determined by the state, the state says by law it HAS TO BE verbal...simple. Therefore no rights are violated.

Now what you could claim, is that common courtesy would dictate I just abide by the sign. My response to that however is common courtesy is a respect thing. But in my opinion (and this is just that an opinion, yours will likely differ) if they restrict guns on their property I find that disrespectful and I find it hard to respect a company (or person for that matter) that fails to show me respect. Not to mention my life is more important to me that giving a common courtesy in this case (again IMO). That's just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree, I imagine you will. But please don't tell me I am violating their rights, because I am not.
Please post this section of code. I can't find it.
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Old 05-12-2013, 18:46   #136
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I'd treat such a sign the same way I'd treat a "No Colored Allowed" sign (if such things as anti-discrimination laws did not exist.) Ignore it if they had something I needed or wanted and it was inconvenient to go someplace else and next time go someplace else with my money and spend it where it was appreciated the next opportunity.

Can you imagine the _____storm that would erupt if someone put up a "No Democrats or Liberals" sign on their store's door?
This.
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Old 05-12-2013, 19:02   #137
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Cite your source please.
Do you really need a source that tells you there are laws against discrimination? BTW, there are quite a few.
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Old 05-12-2013, 20:53   #138
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Do you really need a source that tells you there are laws against discrimination? BTW, there are quite a few.
There are many laws against discrimination.

Who those laws apply to and who they protect are often misunderstood.

I was seeking his opinion.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:33   #139
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Didn't read all 6 pages, but did anyone say "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" for this one?

I'll oblige the private property rights of the land/business owners, but I'll also choose to only patronize "gun friendly" places rather than those who prohibit guns on their property.

No gun policy = less money for your business. Period.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 05-13-2013 at 02:33..
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:10   #140
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A belief that their wants and desires are fundamentally more important than those of others. A belief that only their rights and property are sovereiqn, coupled with a lack of concern for the rights and property of others. Inability to differentiate between can and should. Are we talking about permit holders or career criminals? I wonder, does a lowlife who claims their theft or trespass was because they'd surely starve but for access to your possessions or property have any more of a valid point than a ccw'er who pretends that the threat of death is so imminent that they would surely perish should they not retain their pistol while visiting a posted home or business.
Luby's Cafeteria Massacre was why I chose to get my CCP (back in the early 90s). A woman who carried left her CCW in her car out of respect for the no carry signs. Her parents died in that massacre as well as many.

And I usually never read what is posted on the window/door of an establishment unless it is in bold letters and very large. IF they do that, they are going to lose my business. So posting a policy that is not readable unless you stop and read it is not going to get my attention.
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Last edited by Glockworks; 05-13-2013 at 04:15..
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:33   #141
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And I usually never read what is posted on the window/door of an establishment unless it is in bold letters and very large. IF they do that, they are going to lose my business. So posting a policy that is not readable unless you stop and read it is not going to get my attention.
Good point. With as many signs as there out there, if you managed to read half of them, it would be amazing. Sometimes, people tuck these signs off in obscure locations because they feel it gives them CYA, while not offending customers who may have a CCW. They are trying to have their cake and eat it too. My thought is that if you want to flash a sign, put it out there for the world to see. If you lose customers, that's the consequence. It's only money.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:25   #142
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I OCed into my local VT convenience store and the manager objected strongly. So now I CCW into the store.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:08   #143
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This is mostly for those of us in states where these signs carry no force of law
What, precisely, is meant by no force of law? No law making it a crime in and of itself?

To me, if a property owner puts up such a sign, even if there's no law making it directly a crime to ignore the sign, the sign itself is an indication that they'd be more likely to bounce me out using trespassing law if they had knowledge that the sign was being ignored.

So why bother? If you just ignore the sign you dampen the negative effect on their business of posting the sign.
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Last edited by void *; 05-13-2013 at 09:09..
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Old 05-13-2013, 15:58   #144
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Didn't read all 6 pages, but did anyone say "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" for this one?
I'll oblige the private property rights of the land/business owners, but I'll also choose to only patronize "gun friendly" places rather than those who prohibit guns on their property.

No gun policy = less money for your business. Period.
Nope.

I would've at least respected the honesty of that answer rather than moving the yard line and attempting to twist facts.

Completely agree with your post.
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Old 05-13-2013, 16:06   #145
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Luby's Cafeteria Massacre was why I chose to get my CCP (back in the early 90s). A woman who carried left her CCW in her car out of respect for the no carry signs. Her parents died in that massacre as well as many.

And I usually never read what is posted on the window/door of an establishment unless it is in bold letters and very large. IF they do that, they are going to lose my business. So posting a policy that is not readable unless you stop and read it is not going to get my attention.
I'm glad you carry but a sign wasn't the reason she wasn't carrying.

She wasn't carrying because Texas didn't have a CHL law yet and she, being a law abiding citizen, left it in her vehicle.

The woman you're referring too, Suzanna Hupp, went on to lead the charge push through Texas's CHL law and become the U.S. congressional representative for that area from 1996-2006 handily beating all challengers until she chose not to run in 2006.
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Old 05-13-2013, 16:15   #146
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With all due respect, my safety is more important than some corporate policy.
Then you need to go elsewhere. Your concerns do not trump the rights of the property owner.
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Old 05-13-2013, 16:19   #147
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I'm glad you carry but a sign wasn't the reason she wasn't carrying.

She wasn't carrying because Texas didn't have a CHL law yet and she, being a law abiding citizen, left it in her vehicle.

The woman you're referring too, Suzanna Hupp, went on to lead the charge push through Texas's CHL law and become the U.S. congressional representative for that area from 1996-2006 handily beating all challengers until she chose not to run in 2006.

Carry Issues

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Old 05-13-2013, 16:25   #148
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If you give them permission to search without a warrant they are not violating your rights.

.
So did the business owner give you permission to violate his rights? Or did you do it without his knowledge?

If a police officer violates someone's rights, and that person is ignorant as to their rights and don't know the right has been violated, I guess there is no harm.

If they wire tap without a warrant and the subject never knows they were wire tapped, it's "OK".

If they search a car without the owner present and he never knows his car was searched, then his rights weren't violated?
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:00   #149
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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
I'm glad you carry but a sign wasn't the reason she wasn't carrying.

She wasn't carrying because Texas didn't have a CHL law yet and she, being a law abiding citizen, left it in her vehicle.

The woman you're referring too, Suzanna Hupp, went on to lead the charge push through Texas's CHL law and become the U.S. congressional representative for that area from 1996-2006 handily beating all challengers until she chose not to run in 2006.
Thanks for correction. Her following the then law assisted in more lives lost most likely as the law left her defenseless along with her parents.

I wonder if there could be a case when an establishment prohibits otherwise CCW folks and a madman like what happened in the Colorado theater (or VT) goes on a rampage. Could the establishment be sued (and win) when they did not provide any additional security while making it easier for the killer to continue shooting unarmed people due to THEIR no CCW policy?
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:06   #150
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I reckon that I can fairly simple view of it all. If it's private property and the owner doesn't want firearms on their establishment, then that's their right. As a consumer/customer, I have the option whether to comply or shop elsewhere.
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