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Old 05-11-2013, 19:30   #101
Ryan WA
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
I'm not attacking anyone. You are far from the only person in this thread displaying a "But my opinion is the ONLY one that matters - I'm special" attitude.

Its simple. If a business posts a "No guns" or similar sign, then it should be fairly obvious they don't want guns on the property. Its a sad commentary on society that people feel a LAW should be in place before one must respect the wishes of others.
I am simply explaining my position. You are the one accusing my of violating the property owner's rights, and inferring that I am somehow a horrible person because I would ignore the sign.

Legally speaking they have no right until I am asked to leave that simple. Law and rights aside if they refuse to acknowledge my right to keep and bear arms why should I acknowledge their right to control who is on their property? Who says their right to control who is on their property is more important than my right to carry a firearm?

The answer I still acknowledge their right anyway when I leave upon their request.

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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
You continue to display your ignorance of what rights truly are.

I'll briefly explain it to you.

"Rights" are given to us by our creator, not by any other man.

The Constitution acknowledges some of those rights and protects those specific rights from government oppression.

The Constitution does not protect your rights from other individuals.

Your rights do not trump anyone else's rights...no matter how much you would like to think they do.

If a property owner expresses his wishes to you by an "informational" sign, you violate his rights to regulate what happens on his property when you don't respect his written wishes.

Laws don't protect "rights".

Laws are based on Judeo-Christian teaching and societal mores...not rights.

Just because something is illegal, doesn't mean it's immoral.

Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's moral.

Morality and the law are not neccessarily the same.

Hope this clears things up for you.
That makes an assumption of a creator, which is an assumption most people, and science disagree with. Rights are merely intrinsic, and relative to each person. The role of law is to create an absolute enforceable legal rights around a general consensus of the people.

morality is relative to each person, and who is to say your morality is any more right or wrong than mine? That's what we have the law for.

The law says they have no recourse until I am in the store and they ask me to leave. A sign is insufficient under state law in my state.

Therefore the property owner has no RIGHT to keep me off the property until the ask me to lave as confirmed (or restricted) by law, however you want to look at it. Thus I am not violating their rights.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-11-2013 at 19:36..
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Old 05-11-2013, 19:52   #102
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Hard to see a distinction between some gun owners and most criminals.

Pity.
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:07   #103
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Hard to see a distinction between some gun owners and most criminals.

Pity.
You mean the "It's only wrong if I get caught" mentality?
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:15   #104
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Hard to see a distinction between some gun owners and most criminals.

Pity.

Ditto with some cops.
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:26   #105
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Ditto with some cops.
Start your own thread in the appropriate forum, sir, if you really want to go down that path.
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:27   #106
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You mean the "It's only wrong if I get caught" mentality?
It's not wrong at all. It is in complete compliance with the law.
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:42   #107
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I encountered this yesterday. In Georgia, these signs do not carry the weight of law. I took my car to a nearby business for routine maintenance, (and was certainly not leaving my pistol in the car). The sign was posted on the least used entrance to the business (not the main door), and easily missed though I happened to see it. Due to a relative time crunch, I opted not to follow my typical position of taking my car to a less discriminatory location. I carried concealed on their premises briefly to drop off and later pick up my car. While I agree that common courtesy might normally dictate I have gone elsewhere, the recent string of armed robberies nearby has left me feeling just fine about my decisions.
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Old 05-11-2013, 21:04   #108
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
That makes an assumption of a creator, which is an assumption most people, and science disagree with. Rights are merely intrinsic, and relative to each person. The role of law is to create an absolute enforceable legal rights around a general consensus of the people.

morality is relative to each person, and who is to say your morality is any more right or wrong than mine? That's what we have the law for.

.
That has to be the most jumbled up line of reasoning I have seen in a long time and typical "moral relativism" of liberal though (even though some so-called "conservatives" have found it convenient to hide behind it)

If your "rights" were not believed to have been endowed by a creator then they exist only because of laws, in which case any law that takes them away is just as valid as the law that gave them to you.

Your sense of your "rights" exists because of the society that was created long before you were born, by people who believed the rights were inviolate because of their endowment by a creator. Sorry to break this to you but America is a Christian based society. Tough luck.

"General consensus of the people"? you have got to be kidding me. The Founders were afraid of that as a guiding principle and built a Republic, not a Democracy, to guard against tyranny by "general consensus".

Morality being relative with no right or wrong? Yah, so suicide bombings and honor killings aren't wrong because the people committing them don't think they are?


You are truly of the "make up the rules to suit myself" generation.
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Old 05-11-2013, 21:19   #109
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That has to be the most jumbled up line of reasoning I have seen in a long time and typical "moral relativism" of liberal though (even though some so-called "conservatives" have found it convenient to hide behind it)

If your "rights" were not believed to have been endowed by a creator then they exist only because of laws, in which case any law that takes them away is just as valid as the law that gave them to you.

Your sense of your "rights" exists because of the society that was created long before you were born, by people who believed the rights were inviolate because of their endowment by a creator. Sorry to break this to you but America is a Christian based society. Tough luck.

"General consensus of the people"? you have got to be kidding me. The Founders were afraid of that as a guiding principle and built a Republic, not a Democracy, to guard against tyranny by "general consensus".

Morality being relative with no right or wrong? Yah, so suicide bombings and honor killings aren't wrong because the people committing them don't think they are?


You are truly of the "make up the rules to suit myself" generation.
I don't have to make up the rules, that's already been done.

Our republic isn't much different than a democracy. The representatives are voted on by us to represent us. It's almost as good as just a direct vote but much easier to manage. Just look at how complicated voting for the representatives is. Could you imagine doing that for every proposed law?

Regardless of how you want to view rights either created by or restricted by the law. Fact is the law restricts (or sets) the rights of the property owner to only have the ability to ask me to leave once on the property, they can't just set a sign and forget it.
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Old 05-11-2013, 21:52   #110
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Never mind, too much. It was an anecdote.

Last edited by brokenprism; 05-11-2013 at 22:18..
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Old 05-11-2013, 22:06   #111
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I don't have to make up the rules, that's already been done.

Our republic isn't much different than a democracy. The representatives are voted on by us to represent us. It's almost as good as just a direct vote but much easier to manage. Just look at how complicated voting for the representatives is. Could you imagine doing that for every proposed law?

Regardless of how you want to view rights either created by or restricted by the law. Fact is the law restricts (or sets) the rights of the property owner to only have the ability to ask me to leave once on the property, they can't just set a sign and forget it.

Besides you being wrong I am getting rather tired of you moving the goalposts to try to get your point to count. (Yet another symptom of the corruption in this society)

If you see a sign on private property and ignore it, you are not respecting the rights of the property owner, you are just a child trying to have your own way.
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Old 05-11-2013, 22:23   #112
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Besides you being wrong I am getting rather tired of you moving the goalposts to try to get your point to count. (Yet another symptom of the corruption in this society)

If you see a sign on private property and ignore it, you are not respecting the rights of the property owner, you are just a child trying to have your own way.
I don't know how many different ways I can say this so let me try the direct approach...

IT IS NOT VIOLATING THEIR RIGHTS FOR ME TO WALK INTO THE STORE ARMED REGARDLESS OF THE EXISTENCE OF A SIGN!

I've tried to explain this calmly, and professionally, and courteously. You are too dense to see anyone else's point of view that is contrary to yours though. You are incapable of admitting your wrong because somehow in your mind you are always right no matter what. Learn to have a constructive intelligent discussion.

Their rights are clearly DEFINED, CONFIRMED, RESTRICTED (how ever you want to word it) by the law. Their rights aren't violated until they ask me to leave and I refuse, which as I already said I would not refuse, thus their rights would NEVER be violated.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-11-2013 at 22:25..
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Old 05-11-2013, 22:45   #113
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
I don't know how many different ways I can say this so let me try the direct approach...

IT IS NOT VIOLATING THEIR RIGHTS FOR ME TO WALK INTO THE STORE ARMED REGARDLESS OF THE EXISTENCE OF A SIGN!

I've tried to explain this calmly, and professionally, and courteously. You are too dense to see anyone else's point of view that is contrary to yours though. You are incapable of admitting your wrong because somehow in your mind you are always right no matter what. Learn to have a constructive intelligent discussion.

Their rights are clearly DEFINED, CONFIRMED, RESTRICTED (how ever you want to word it) by the law. Their rights aren't violated until they ask me to leave and I refuse, which as I already said I would not refuse, thus their rights would NEVER be violated.
The fact that the owner chooses to print out his disapproval of your presence instead of voicing it is a meaningless distinction. In either case, you've ignored his desire for how his property is to be run, placing your preference above his. The fact that you won't honor a property owner's wishes unless there's some threat of a legal penalty is not a position to be proud of.
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Old 05-11-2013, 23:37   #114
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
I don't know how many different ways I can say this so let me try the direct approach...

IT IS NOT VIOLATING THEIR RIGHTS FOR ME TO WALK INTO THE STORE ARMED REGARDLESS OF THE EXISTENCE OF A SIGN!

I've tried to explain this calmly, and professionally, and courteously. You are too dense to see anyone else's point of view that is contrary to yours though. You are incapable of admitting your wrong because somehow in your mind you are always right no matter what. Learn to have a constructive intelligent discussion.

Their rights are clearly DEFINED, CONFIRMED, RESTRICTED (how ever you want to word it) by the law. Their rights aren't violated until they ask me to leave and I refuse, which as I already said I would not refuse, thus their rights would NEVER be violated.
YES IT IS A VIOLATION OF THEIR RIGHTS.

The fact that you don't recognize a property owners rights (unless you get caught) is a sad indictment of our value system.

One more time, go back and read the Constitution and then the Bill of Rights. See which document came first and see what rights the Second Amendment protects. Then discover which came first in the minds of the Founders.

If someone violates one of the primary rights (that of controlling one's property) while claiming to be exercising a later enumerated right needed for that control of property, (the right to bear arms) then that person is well short of understanding the words or the meaning of the Constitution. They are merely a quibbler trying to weasel around the facts to have their way, refusing to admit to the property owner's rights.

Your rights are protected from encroachment by the Government, but they stop at someone else's property line, where his rights begin. Not "Until I get caught"
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Old 05-11-2013, 23:49   #115
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Any sign is meaningless, They have to actually ask me to leave. It's not about getting "caught" as you said. There's nothing to get caught doing. I am not doing anything wrong. If they disapprove to secure their rights to keep me off their property they have to SAY something. A sign is not sufficient thus there is no violation of rights. Why is it so hard to wrap your tiny brain around that FACT...oh wait I just answered my own question.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-12-2013 at 00:33..
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Old 05-11-2013, 23:54   #116
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
The fact that the owner chooses to print out his disapproval of your presence instead of voicing it is a meaningless distinction. In either case, you've ignored his desire for how his property is to be run, placing your preference above his. The fact that you won't honor a property owner's wishes unless there's some threat of a legal penalty is not a position to be proud of.
I live in Michigan and I have NO legal requirement to stand at the door of a business for five minutes before entering to read through a multitude of signage... If I know that they are anti second amendment then I will most certainly take my business elsewhere. On occasion, I have taken the time before entering to see if they have any restrictions. To my surprise I have not ever seen ANY? If the business owner is adamant about no weapons then the no guns placard needs to be where I grab the handle to the door so that it is obvious...if not, too bad for them! And, by the way, your opinion of what I should and should not be proud of means nothing to me...
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Old 05-12-2013, 00:27   #117
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Any sign is meaningless, They have to actually ask me to leave. It's not about getting "caught" as you said. There's nothing to get caught doing. I am not doing anything wrong. If they disapprove to secure their rights to keep me off their property they have to SAY something. A sign is not sufficient thus there is no violation of rights. Why is it so hard to wrap your tiny brain around that FACT...oh wait I just answered my own question.
You answer your own questions the way you like so you only get the answers you want.

That is rather obvious.

In my State if you ignore the sign the business owner can have you cited PERIOD. and if you get cited, you lose your CWP.

That has withstood challenges in Court, so I have reason to believe it is Constitutional.

That leaves the conclusion that it IS a violation of the property owners rights, just that different States may have different laws and standards of enforcement.


NO, you aren't "special". If I post my property "No Trespassing" I am under no obligation to prove you read the sign, only that the sign was up before I had you arrested.

You are trying to make a case for parking on a businesses lawn and saying "I didn't see a sign that said I couldn't, but if they ask me nice, I'll move it"
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Old 05-12-2013, 00:34   #118
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You answer your own questions the way you like so you only get the answers you want.

That is rather obvious.

In my State if you ignore the sign the business owner can have you cited PERIOD. and if you get cited, you lose your CWP.

That has withstood challenges in Court, so I have reason to believe it is Constitutional.

That leaves the conclusion that it IS a violation of the property owners rights, just that different States may have different laws and standards of enforcement.


NO, you aren't "special". If I post my property "No Trespassing" I am under no obligation to prove you read the sign, only that the sign was up before I had you arrested.

You are trying to make a case for parking on a businesses lawn and saying "I didn't see a sign that said I couldn't, but if they ask me nice, I'll move it"
It passed in court meaning the law giving force to the sign is constitutional, doesn't mean every state needs to have such a law.

I am not violating their rights if they have no executed their rights as required by state law. State law here says to execute their property owner rights to keep me off their property that have to ask me to leave, a sign in no asking me to leave no matter what is says. If they put the sign up but don't enforce it and I go onto their property with a firearm how am I violating their rights if I am not exercising them?

That's like saying since the state is violating my 2nd amendment right by restricting me from conceal carrying when I have no attempted to exercise my right to the extent required by law by applying for the permit.

The ball is in their court to exercise their right, if they exercise it then I will abide by their wishes thus avoiding violating their rights.

The law says it has to be verbal, not a sign. Why? Signs can be missed, not understood for example if I could not read English, or may not even be visible it it somehow got covered up. That's why states that do give force of law to no gun signs have strict requirements the sign must follow to be valid. Not my fault Washington avoids that by saying to exercise their right they have to verbally ask me to leave.

Simply put... I CANNOT violate a right they are not executing as prescribed by law.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-12-2013 at 00:35..
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Old 05-12-2013, 05:10   #119
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Quote:
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Any sign is meaningless, They have to actually ask me to leave. It's not about getting "caught" as you said. There's nothing to get caught doing. I am not doing anything wrong. If they disapprove to secure their rights to keep me off their property they have to SAY something. A sign is not sufficient thus there is no violation of rights. Why is it so hard to wrap your tiny brain around that FACT...oh wait I just answered my own question.
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Old 05-12-2013, 05:12   #120
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Two opposing views, more than likely in most cases separated by the width of a Cross

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Old 05-12-2013, 05:27   #121
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The law says it has to be verbal, not a sign. Why? Signs can be missed, not understood for example if I could not read English, or may not even be visible it it somehow got covered up. That's why states that do give force of law to no gun signs have strict requirements the sign must follow to be valid. Not my fault Washington avoids that by saying to exercise their right they have to verbally ask me to leave.
I once rented a store front to a business owner. He sold and repaired telephones. He was a great person, very successful businessman. He was mute. Signs were his method of communication. Since you ignore non-verbal communication, signs, explain how you would handle that.
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Old 05-12-2013, 05:59   #122
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I once rented a store front to a business owner. He sold and repaired telephones. He was a great person, very successful businessman. He was mute. Signs were his method of communication. Since you ignore non-verbal communication, signs, explain how you would handle that.
So being Deaf, I just stick my gun in the person's face and point to the door? Though you do bring up a good point that was also addressed in my CCW class. That is, if deadly force is justified, no warning, shots, verbal or otherwise is required. One reason that stupidity publicity stunt at a movie theater discussed here is so dangerous. If the guy walked into the actual dark theater and stood and the front of the theater and waived the gun around, assuming concealed carry was allowed or I misseed the no carry sign walking in, I would have been justified shooting the guy because to let him fire first is too late and I might be dead by then...
Everyone would do well on this board to remember that not everyone on ths board can speak or hear, or read and understand English etc. Yes there are also documented cases of Police shooting Deaf persons and non English speaking persons for failure to comply with verbal orders.

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Old 05-12-2013, 09:36   #123
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If this were residential property, I would say everyone should honor the sign 100%, without question. However, this is commercially zoned property, entitled to all of the commerce benefits of state, local, and federal licensing. With that said, if the weapon is concealed legally, I do not see how one can put up a sign to remove that right. If that were the case, you could put up a sign to deny business or invoke your will on any range of topics.

For example, at my home, if I want to screen who can or cannot come in, that is up to me. At a commercially licensed business, I don't have that right. Discrimination laws prevent that. The key factor that is missing from this discussion is the fact that this location is permitted for business based on legal compliance with all laws.

Remember, your tax dollars are used to run the offices that issue the permits for these shops to conduct business. As fast as one can say, "If you don't like the sign, don't do business there, " one can also say, "If you don't want to respect the rights of CC permit holders, you don't have to sell anything." This is not a private property issue. This is a commercial business issue.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:01   #124
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This is mostly for those of us in states where these signs carry no force of law, but what do you do at private property that has a no guns allowed sign.

Personally, I have not encountered this, but my thought is to just go in with my concealed firearm anyway. The property owner can always ask me to leave, and I would if they asked. Curious who else does/would do this if its legal to in your state as it in in WA.

Do you leave your firearm in the car and go in?

Do you go somewhere else? If so do you write the business owner telling them you won;t shop there because of that?
For what it's worth here is my take on the issue. Firstly on your claim and I quote "This is mostly for those of us in states where these signs carry no force of law". If I am wrong I would like to see it written in the law books where any sign on private property prohibiting no firearm carry (in any State) is not enforceable by law. Don't get me wrong, I am 100% pro 2nd amendment, but private property is simply that - private property and they should be allowed to prohibit firearms.

As far as if I would comply - I would likely be hypocritical and go in armed anyway as long as I felt sure they could not see that I was carrying. Private property business has the same right you do in regards to your home. It is your choice who you let through the door and the same goes for private business. If I am wrong please show me with credible legal laws.

On a side issue, In my State open carry is legal, but even though I may ignore such sign if my pistol is thoroughly concealed, I would never carry open in such scenario. In fact I never carry open period except for when camping or hiking in the boonies.
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Old 05-12-2013, 10:03   #125
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I am not doing anything wrong.
Voluntarily giving money to obvious antis is wrong in my book.
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