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Old 05-10-2013, 07:07   #51
dugo
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Originally Posted by AngelDeville View Post
I would inform the manager/owner that they no longer have my business, or my protection.

Easy as that....
Yep.

If the business decides to deprive me of my own personal protection, should the business be providing at least the degree of protection from potential criminals that it has asked me to give up?

Since most businesses let anyone on to the property without screening, there is no reduced risk on their property. Matter of fact, there is enhanced risk to me if the business is known to have anything worth stealing on site.

Businesses know all this, too. They know (or should know) they are asking that we give up personal protection just as we are stepping into enhanced personal risk that they allow.

Last edited by dugo; 05-11-2013 at 09:08..
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:15   #52
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Originally Posted by vafish View Post
Don't know where you are getting this.

Many states list a penalty for failing to obey no guns signs.

Here in va our law says your permit is not valid if the property owner prohibits concealed carry. Ignore a sign and you could be charged with a misdemeanor for your first offense.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
Simple. It has to be proven, that you saw, read and understood the sign. I just say I did not see the sign. Now if you are stupid enough to say yes I saw and understood the sign then guess its on you.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:16   #53
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Old 05-10-2013, 15:20   #54
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Originally Posted by soutthpaw View Post
Simple. It has to be proven, that you saw, read and understood the sign. I just say I did not see the sign. Now if you are stupid enough to say yes I saw and understood the sign then guess its on you.

I wonder if that applies to, for instance, speeding, or running a stop sign also? Does it have to be proven that one saw, read, and understood the speed limit sign, or is proving that the sign was posted, was proper and was official is sufficient? Or maybe it varies depending on the location and statute?
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Old 05-10-2013, 15:28   #55
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Originally Posted by vafish View Post
Don't know where you are getting this.

Many states list a penalty for failing to obey no guns signs.

Here in va our law says your permit is not valid if the property owner prohibits concealed carry. Ignore a sign and you could be charged with a misdemeanor for your first offense.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
I've heard it the other way, the the majority of states those signs have no force of law. Regardless in Washington and Idaho (because I sometimes travel there) those signs have no force of law. I am just as within my rights to ignore the sign as they are to put it up in the first place.

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So you believe your rights matter and their rights don't. Winning. If death is so imminent should you stow your weapon while you're at Chuck-E-Cheese, however did you survive before you got a permit and started carrying everywhere?
See above, since state laws says those signs have no force of law I am as within my rights to ignore it as they are to put it up in the first place. I respect their right to put up any sign they want. I also respect their right to ask me to leave if they want. But I carry concealed, so they don't see it and they don't hear it.

Just because I have never needed to defend myself before doesn't mean I might not in the future. And any place that tries to make their business a gun free zone is where I feel most vulnerable because that sign basically tells criminals that everyone inside is defenseless, I choose not to be defenseless.

I like the idea. I'm going to Chuck-E-Cheese and I will be carrying.

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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
Ricky,
It is their right to request I not bring a gun on their premises. However, it is my right to bear arms. In my state, all they can do is ask me to leave. If I then refused to leave, I'd be trespassing.
^ THIS.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-10-2013 at 15:32..
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Old 05-10-2013, 16:08   #56
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Ricky,
It is their right to request I not bring a gun on their premises. However, it is my right to bear arms. In my state, all they can do is ask me to leave. If I then refused to leave, I'd be trespassing.
It is indeed your right to bear arms just as it is my right as well. However, they still have the right to tell you to leave their property and to take your gun with you. And if they do ask you to leave I think you're a reasonable man and you will leave since you are aware of the consequences of not doing so.

Regards,

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Old 05-10-2013, 16:17   #57
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Originally Posted by soutthpaw View Post
Simple. It has to be proven, that you saw, read and understood the sign. I just say I did not see the sign. Now if you are stupid enough to say yes I saw and understood the sign then guess its on you.
Wrong.

If a sign is legally posted there is no burden of proof on the poster with regards to your reading it. Just as it does not have to be proven that you read a "No Parking" sign in order for you to be ticketed.

Different State laws apply as to penalty or none at all, but "I didn't see the sign" is not an excuse. In fact, in my State, it is part and parcel of the permit rues that you read and obey such postings to retain your permit.

The onus is on the bearer.
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:22   #58
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Such nice people here. They believe they have the only rights in the world - businesses have none at all. Ever wonder if you're doing any good for the pro-gun movement?

You're not. All the people who're on the fence will see, is a bunch of egotistical clowns who have no respect for the wishes of others.

Oh, and LG - add jails to your list. Unless you'd like to visit the inside, that is. Carrying is a no-no.
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:32   #59
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Such nice people here. They believe they have the only rights in the world - businesses have none at all. Ever wonder if you're doing any good for the pro-gun movement?

You're not. All the people who're on the fence will see, is a bunch of egotistical clowns who have no respect for the wishes of others.

Oh, and LG - add jails to your list. Unless you'd like to visit the inside, that is. Carrying is a no-no.
I don't see anywhere where we said businesses don't have rights. You might want to reread there before making baseless accusations.

I myself have said they have the right to put up the sign. Under state law I may lawfully ignore it.

But ultimately they have the right to ask me to leave at any time for any reason including for carrying a gun sign or not.

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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Amazing how many of them will get their fur up and throw the words "socialist" or "collectivist" around, and yet they think nothing of setting aside a property owners rights because the business is "open to the public" as if that made it "public property".

I will bet, that if a business owner tossed someone out for trying to exercise their First Amendment right by passing out socialist or communist literature in the business, they would cheer that as "the owners right". In fact it is generally accepted that the property owner has the right to limit the First Amendment on their property.

Why do people think the Second is unlimited ?
Same as above, they have the right to put up a sign. They have the right to ask me to leave. Nobody is saying they don't have rights.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-10-2013 at 20:36..
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:33   #60
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Such nice people here. They believe they have the only rights in the world - businesses have none at all. Ever wonder if you're doing any good for the pro-gun movement?

You're not. All the people who're on the fence will see, is a bunch of egotistical clowns who have no respect for the wishes of others.

Oh, and LG - add jails to your list. Unless you'd like to visit the inside, that is. Carrying is a no-no.
Amazing how many of them will get their fur up and throw the words "socialist" or "collectivist" around, and yet they think nothing of setting aside a property owners rights because the business is "open to the public" as if that made it "public property".

I will bet, that if a business owner tossed someone out for trying to exercise their First Amendment right by passing out socialist or communist literature in the business, they would cheer that as "the owners right". In fact it is generally accepted that the property owner has the right to limit the First Amendment on their property.

Why do people think the Second is unlimited ?
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:47   #61
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My question for the hypothetical business owner: Does he or she agree to be responsible for my safety, civilly, criminally, morally, and spiritually, while I am disarmed at his or her place of business?
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:49   #62
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As I read this I think people are confused as to who has what right.

I have the right to keep and bear arms (2nd amendment) obvious right. This is TRUE.

Business owner has to right to keep me off of their property because I have a gun. This is FALSE. Their right, they have the right to ask me to leave their business at any time for any reason whether I have a gun or not, whether a sign is posted or not. If I refuse, then I am guilty of trespass.

Me simply entering their store regardless of the presence of a sign is NOT infringing anyhow on their actual right, they can still ask me to leave, which is what they have the right to do.

If that store has a sign that says "no shoes no shirt no service" and I walk in there without a short and without shoes, am I violating the property owner's rights? No. That sign set's the expectation that I will most likely be denied service by them, which IS their right.

In the same way a no guns sign sets the expectation that if they see it or somehow ascertain that I have a firearm the will likely ask me to leave, as is their right.

Me simple walking into the store with my concealed firearm is NOT violating anyone's rights. I fully accept the fact that I may be asked to leave and I will if I am asked.

Will I go to the store in the future, probably not if I can help it. But, I am not going to not go in and drive across town to get what I want/need whatever the case is somewhere else. I will go in and get what I need. As long as they don't see my gun there would be no reason for them to ask me to leave.

And I won't just disarm myself because in my opinion they are more likely a target than a store that does not have such a sign therefore I believe it to be more likely I may need my firearm to defend myself or others. After all what that sign really says, is "Rob this store, our customer's have been disarmed for your convenience." My safety is too important for me to just disarm myself.

And ultimately this is all legal...in my state at least. Truth be told I live in the gun friendly part of Washington, I have yet to run across a no guns sign, besides where its actually unlawful (ie schools). On the same note if I was visiting a school for some reason and I properly secured my gun in my car in the parking lot (as state law permits me to do, I just can't carry into the building) and someone starts shooting up the place I would not hesitate to run out to my car, retrieve my Glock and run into the school with my gun (thus violating state and federal law) to defend those inside. You have to make choices. I have made mine.

But please don't treat me like I am a horrible person for ignoring the sign or accuse me of violating anyone's rights because as I have mentioned I am not!)

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-10-2013 at 21:10..
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:53   #63
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My question for the hypothetical business owner: Does he or she agree to be responsible for my safety, civilly, criminally, morally, and spiritually, while I am disarmed at his or her place of business?
Just because you are armed is still no guarantee of your safety. would a gun have helped you if you had been standing next to one of the bombs in Boston?
and you have to decide if the risk is acceptable
Nobody and nothing "guarantees" anyone's safety. It is a free choice you make if you decided to abide by the business owner's rules. You are free to do business else where if not.

This idea that there is such a thing as "safety", and that someone else can be responsible for it, has led us to this era of stupid lawsuits.
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Old 05-10-2013, 21:51   #64
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
As I read this I think people are confused as to who has what right.

I have the right to keep and bear arms (2nd amendment) obvious right. This is TRUE.

Business owner has to right to keep me off of their property because I have a gun. This is FALSE. Their right, they have the right to ask me to leave their business at any time for any reason whether I have a gun or not, whether a sign is posted or not. If I refuse, then I am guilty of trespass.

Me simply entering their store regardless of the presence of a sign is NOT infringing anyhow on their actual right, they can still ask me to leave, which is what they have the right to do.

If that store has a sign that says "no shoes no shirt no service" and I walk in there without a short and without shoes, am I violating the property owner's rights? No. That sign set's the expectation that I will most likely be denied service by them, which IS their right.

In the same way a no guns sign sets the expectation that if they see it or somehow ascertain that I have a firearm the will likely ask me to leave, as is their right.

Me simple walking into the store with my concealed firearm is NOT violating anyone's rights. I fully accept the fact that I may be asked to leave and I will if I am asked.

Will I go to the store in the future, probably not if I can help it. But, I am not going to not go in and drive across town to get what I want/need whatever the case is somewhere else. I will go in and get what I need. As long as they don't see my gun there would be no reason for them to ask me to leave.

And I won't just disarm myself because in my opinion they are more likely a target than a store that does not have such a sign therefore I believe it to be more likely I may need my firearm to defend myself or others. After all what that sign really says, is "Rob this store, our customer's have been disarmed for your convenience." My safety is too important for me to just disarm myself.

And ultimately this is all legal...in my state at least. Truth be told I live in the gun friendly part of Washington, I have yet to run across a no guns sign, besides where its actually unlawful (ie schools). On the same note if I was visiting a school for some reason and I properly secured my gun in my car in the parking lot (as state law permits me to do, I just can't carry into the building) and someone starts shooting up the place I would not hesitate to run out to my car, retrieve my Glock and run into the school with my gun (thus violating state and federal law) to defend those inside. You have to make choices. I have made mine.

But please don't treat me like I am a horrible person for ignoring the sign or accuse me of violating anyone's rights because as I have mentioned I am not!)

Texas Penal Code

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.(b) For purposes of this section:(1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.(2) "Notice" means:(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

This basic logic is found in many other states as well.

I don't think you're a horrible person but you are violating their rights by entering their business after being notified that they didn't want you there.
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Old 05-10-2013, 22:02   #65
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Just because you are armed is still no guarantee of your safety. would a gun have helped you if you had been standing next to one of the bombs in Boston?
and you have to decide if the risk is acceptable
Nobody and nothing "guarantees" anyone's safety. It is a free choice you make if you decided to abide by the business owner's rules. You are free to do business else where if not.

This idea that there is such a thing as "safety", and that someone else can be responsible for it, has led us to this era of stupid lawsuits.
I bear responsibility for my own safety, and take reasonable steps to secure the same. When another denies me same protections he or she assumes responsibility for the protections I abdicated unwillingly.

Frivolous or not, it does open doors for litigation if one could show a jury that removing said protections exacerbated an already bad situation.

Regarding my first point, this is what I think when I see a "no guns" sign: Is this party going to keep me safe?

No? Guess I am keeping my pistol exactly where it is, then.
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Old 05-10-2013, 22:20   #66
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I bear responsibility for my own safety, and take reasonable steps to secure the same. When another denies me same protections he or she assumes responsibility for the protections I abdicated unwillingly.

Frivolous or not, it does open doors for litigation if one could show a jury that removing said protections exacerbated an already bad situation.

Regarding my first point, this is what I think when I see a "no guns" sign: Is this party going to keep me safe?

No? Guess I am keeping my pistol exactly where it is, then.
If it was an already bad situation why did you enter?

You cannot prove that your firearm would have changed any outcome. Now if you were wearing body armor and there was a "no body armor" sign, you removed your armor, and were subsequently hit in a place the armor might have covered, then you might, maybe have some legs there.

You were incomplete control over your choice to enter or not. You decided that the risk was acceptable.

There is no assumption that going into a business is inherently dangerous. There are far too many examples of people doing so without being harmed, everyday, to prove that there is an abnormal risk.

Show some case law that proves a successful claim to support this position. I think you will find it very difficult to hold a business owner responsible, for the sudden,random act of an unstable person. You will also find that the Courts tend to side with business owners in such cases and do not consider the "no firearms" rule to be unreasonable.
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Old 05-10-2013, 22:53   #67
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Texas Penal Code

Sec. 30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person enters or remains on or in property of another, including residential land, agricultural land, a recreational vehicle park, a building, or an aircraft or other vehicle, without effective consent and the person:(1) had notice that the entry was forbidden; or(2) received notice to depart but failed to do so.(b) For purposes of this section:(1) "Entry" means the intrusion of the entire body.(2) "Notice" means:(A) oral or written communication by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;(B) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders or to contain livestock;(C) a sign or signs posted on the property or at the entrance to the building, reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, indicating that entry is forbidden;

This basic logic is found in many other states as well.

I don't think you're a horrible person but you are violating their rights by entering their business after being notified that they didn't want you there.
Under Texas law, the problem is I'm not in Texas. And even if your state law does give force to those signs, entering is NOT violating the property owners right. Laws don't give rights., you personally would just simply be breaking the law, that simple.
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Old 05-11-2013, 00:28   #68
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Under Texas law, the problem is I'm not in Texas. And even if your state law does give force to those signs, entering is NOT violating the property owners right. Laws don't give rights., you personally would just simply be breaking the law, that simple.
Do you own property?

Do you have the right to keep people off of your property that you don't want there?

So do they.

Your rights end where theirs begin...and their rights end where yours begin.

You have the right to carry your firearm for your protection.

You have the right not to disarm and not to enter their property.

You do not have the right to carry that firearm on private property where the owner lets you know that you're not welcome.

You may not be violating the law in your state but you are violating the property owners right to control who is allowed on the property.

I understand you don't like this but your previous posts show you understand it.
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Old 05-11-2013, 00:47   #69
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Do you own property?

Do you have the right to keep people off of your property that you don't want there?

So do they.

Your rights end where theirs begin...and their rights end where yours begin.

You have the right to carry your firearm for your protection.

You have the right not to disarm and not to enter their property.

You do not have the right to carry that firearm on private property where the owner lets you know that you're not welcome.

You may not be violating the law in your state but you are violating the property owners right to control who is allowed on the property.

I understand you don't like this but your previous posts show you understand it.
Its not about liking or disliking anything. Please read my previous posts. Its about the fact they are a business and have opened up their property to the public, at that point I have the right to enter with or without a gun. If they don't like it then THEN have the right to ask me to leave.

The no gun sign, that sets the expectation that I may be asked to leave. Now in your state it doesn't just set the expectation it is actually prohibitive under the law, that's different than the property owner's rights.

If I have not been asked to leave then I am welcomed in regardless of any sign posted. That's what having a business is, your property is open to the public unless you ask them to leave and/or not come back.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-11-2013 at 01:06..
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:13   #70
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In Virginia, that would be an act of criminal trespass (not a violation of any firearms regulation) that could get you twelve months in jail and a $2500 fine. I just keep out - I don't need to be with people like that, and when stores are posted, I vote with my dollars.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:11   #71
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In Virginia, that would be an act of criminal trespass (not a violation of any firearms regulation) that could get you twelve months in jail and a $2500 fine. I just keep out - I don't need to be with people like that, and when stores are posted, I vote with my dollars.
Yes.

Question user. Suppose you have a neighbor who owns a jewelry store and his store has a prominently displayed No Guns sign. You enter armed, he sees you, you point to the sign, and he says, "That's okay, don't worry about it. I know you". Doesn't he have the right to waive the sign and allow you to stay in his place of business while perhaps demanding others to leave?
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:21   #72
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Wrong.

If a sign is legally posted there is no burden of proof on the poster with regards to your reading it. Just as it does not have to be proven that you read a "No Parking" sign in order for you to be ticketed.

Different State laws apply as to penalty or none at all, but "I didn't see the sign" is not an excuse. In fact, in my State, it is part and parcel of the permit rues that you read and obey such postings to retain your permit.

The onus is on the bearer.
The status of such signs seems to vary a good deal from state to state. In the states where I have looked, as long as the sign was posted properly (prescribed in the statute), then it doesn't matter whether the carrier saw it or not. It still counts.

Other places, maybe they must actually see it, and still others maybe the signs are only advisory and someone has to ask you to leave before you are trespassing. (BUT: I would think that if you see the sign, and transgress, that you could be guilty of trespassing almost anywhere, since "trespassing after notice"-type theories would apply.)

Last edited by dugo; 05-11-2013 at 06:22..
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:26   #73
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Yes.

Question user. Suppose you have a neighbor who owns a jewelry store and his store has a prominently displayed No Guns sign. You enter armed, he sees you, you point to the sign, and he says, "That's okay, don't worry about it. I know you". Doesn't he have the right to waive the sign and allow you to stay in his place of business while perhaps demanding others to leave?

I would think the answer is "yes", since the sign is a function of the owner's intention, and not required by law. The only problem would be if the owner doesn't own up to it later.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:50   #74
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If it is my house, and I see a weapon on you. I'm not asking you to leave, you are going to leave but you are going to have earned some extra holes in you. Maybe those will help you listen.


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Old 05-11-2013, 06:51   #75
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All I see here is what is Legal, legal this and legal that. Where is the personally held morality and integrity anymore, does it exist in this world anymore?

Do we not hold ourselves to the same accountability as we hold others?

We are to judge others by their actions but judge ourselves by our intentions? This breeds only disrespect for others and their property. It’sOK if not caught attitude is why we require lawyers. Can we not internally police ourselves and do what is right only because it is the right thing to do?

You people keep doing what you can get away with and argue how to perceive the law in your best interest and I’ll choose to do the right thing just because I try to hold my personal integrity above the law.

Last edited by AXaxiom; 05-11-2013 at 07:59..
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