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Old 05-15-2013, 23:00   #181
wprebeck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
You could sue for anything. Doesn't mean you're right or will win. Bet you can't find a case where that happened.
You are clueless, aren't you?
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Old 05-15-2013, 23:42   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Yes but you follow his example. He was doing nothing wrong with Monica at all until he got caught.
That's a terrible analogy. I would call stepping out on your marital vows to be wrong. Maybe not legally, but it is definitely behavior I'd rather the CiC not involve himself in.

I'll be honest, I couldn't care less about property rights. If you ask me to leave I will happily comply. If you ask mr at the door if I am armed, I will reply truthfully and you can decide if you want to deny me access. If you do, that's fine...I'll leave without another word. I just don't consider a sign to be proper notification...and neither does state law.
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Old 05-15-2013, 23:55   #183
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Originally Posted by IndyGunFreak View Post
That's a terrible analogy. I would call stepping out on your marital vows to be wrong. Maybe not legally, but it is definitely behavior I'd rather the CiC not involve himself in.

I'll be honest, I couldn't care less about property rights. If you ask me to leave I will happily comply. If you ask mr at the door if I am armed, I will reply truthfully and you can decide if you want to deny me access. If you do, that's fine...I'll leave without another word. I just don't consider a sign to be proper notification...and neither does state law.
Let see beside being the POTUS and disrespecting the office he was also her boss and there are some issues there. And it was just plain sleazy, but morally OK for him until it was discovered.

But the point was, he set a moral tone of "it's not wrong unless you get caught, and then lie about it and finally quibble over the definition of "is".

BTW MY State considers a "No Trespassing" sign, properly posted, to be a legal notice. They don't care about what you "consider it"

If you have a CWP and you enter a posted business armed and the owner discovers you are armed he can call the Cops and have you cited. If your local sheriff doesn't like you doing that your permit goes away. You have proved you can't play by the rule like an adult.
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:31   #184
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
The law says it has to be verbal, not a sign. Why? Signs can be missed, not understood for example if I could not read English, or may not even be visible it it somehow got covered up. That's why states that do give force of law to no gun signs have strict requirements the sign must follow to be valid. Not my fault Washington avoids that by saying to exercise their right they have to verbally ask me to leave.
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I once rented a store front to a business owner. He sold and repaired telephones. He was a great person, very successful businessman. He was mute. Signs were his method of communication. Since you ignore non-verbal communication, signs, explain how you would handle that.
No response?
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Old 05-16-2013, 05:34   #185
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Let's try again...
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Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
The rights of the property owner. Interesting, Bruce. What rights have I violated if I enter a public business while carrying concealed? In my state (KY) and neighboring state (IN) I in full compliance with the law in doing so. So you're saying the way the law is written is violating his rights? Time to go to the state legislature and change some laws (good luck with that..ha).

He has opened his doors to the public, and he has the right to ask me to leave. If I carry a gun onto his premises, I haven't violated any of his rights. When you open your doors to the public, you need to go by the laws of the state.
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There is a store/business employee by the door. When you cross the threshold into the business, the employee asks, "Do you have any firearms on you, are you carrying a gun?"

How will you respond?
?
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Old 05-16-2013, 06:24   #186
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I have not gone to this issue as well. however if there was a place that had some signs up no firearms on premises or something like that I wouldn't go.

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Old 05-16-2013, 09:22   #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Louisville Glocker View Post
The rights of the property owner. Interesting, Bruce. What rights have I violated if I enter a public business while carrying concealed? In my state (KY) and neighboring state (IN) I in full compliance with the law in doing so. So you're saying the way the law is written is violating his rights? Time to go to the state legislature and change some laws (good luck with that..ha).

He has opened his doors to the public, and he has the right to ask me to leave. If I carry a gun onto his premises, I haven't violated any of his rights. When you open your doors to the public, you need to go by the laws of the state.
LG,

First, we agree in both principle and sentiment, and although I have no clue about Kentucky and or Indiana, here in Florida we have what are commonly referred to as private property rights. Pretend I sell widgets.......

At least here in Florida, even if my retail widget business' doors are open to the general public, I still maintain the "private property" RIGHT(S) to refuse to service or do business with anyone on my property providing I refuse such service without discrimination or segregation on the grounds of either race, religion, color or national origin.

Simply put, if you come in drunk I can tell you to leave. If you come in smelling like you've crawled out of a sewer I can tell you to leave. These rights extend to also preclude from entering my store drunk and or smelly. I can also preclude you from coming in armed if I as the owner decide to do so.

I do not give up the right to refuse to service or do business with someone simply because I am open to the public. Well, at least not here in Florida.


ETA: Even though we are 100% on the same side of this issue, I still believe we have to understand BOTH SIDES of it as well.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 05-16-2013 at 09:24..
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:44   #188
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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
Still waiting for you to post this statute...
I'm still waiting for him to explain why his State discriminates against mutes and gives them no property rights.
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Old 05-16-2013, 17:16   #189
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I'm still waiting for him to explain why his State discriminates against mutes and gives them no property rights.
Why are you asking me? Call Olympia and ask the state senators.

When I walk into Costco, Walmart, my local grocery store, wherever chances are I walk by numerous employees who are not mute and can say something.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:14   #190
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The lack of clue is strong with this one...
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:29   #191
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Originally Posted by Ryan WA View Post
Why are you asking me? Call Olympia and ask the state senators.

When I walk into Costco, Walmart, my local grocery store, wherever chances are I walk by numerous employees who are not mute and can say something.
So you would ignore a mute person's sign and wait for someone who speaks to verbally order you out. Am I misinterpreting your response?
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:07   #192
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Oh I see gun owners/carriers want their rights respected, but when it comes to the rights of property owners they don't really count. We should just carry inside anyway because it's what's best for "them."

To me this is the pot calling the kettle black analogy.

Respect their rights just as you want yours respected. Otherwise continue to leave a crap taste in their mouths when it comes to gun carriers (i.e. law breakers and attention nuts).

Fortunately the gun buster sign in my state carries criminal weight. That way people who don't respect the rights of others have the likelihood of losing their right to carry.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:30   #193
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Even in places at where violating the sign by itself needs other elements to sustain a criminal charge, the fact that there are places at where violating the sign by itself is a crime, ought to be a strong clue as to whether or not violating the sign is inappropriate and violating the buisness owner's rights.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:57   #194
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The lack of clue is strong with this one...
Yep - hence my comment about his age. He's likely around 20-22 years old, and a newly minted permit holder. Bets?
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:59   #195
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Even in places at where violating the sign by itself needs other elements to sustain a criminal charge, the fact that there are places at where violating the sign by itself is a crime, ought to be a strong clue as to whether or not violating the sign is inappropriate and violating the buisness owner's rights.
Well, hell...Bruce - you have been educated by Ryan, right? Unless there are specific criminal sanctions for a perceived offense, there CAN NOT be a violation of rights. After all, Ryan's the expert.
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Old 05-17-2013, 14:37   #196
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Oh I see gun owners/carriers want their rights respected, but when it comes to the rights of property owners they don't really count. We should just carry inside anyway because it's what's best for "them."

To me this is the pot calling the kettle black analogy.

Respect their rights just as you want yours respected. Otherwise continue to leave a crap taste in their mouths when it comes to gun carriers (i.e. law breakers and attention nuts).

Fortunately the gun buster sign in my state carries criminal weight. That way people who don't respect the rights of others have the likelihood of losing their right to carry.
I would never violate anyone's rights and if you would read you would see that I am not. If they don't exercise their right by asking me to leave VERBALLY as required by state law to exercise their right then I am not violating their right, because they are not exercising it. If they ask me to leave, I comply tthus again not violating their rights because once they exercise their right of control I comply.

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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Yep - hence my comment about his age. He's likely around 20-22 years old, and a newly minted permit holder. Bets?
And this is based on....

I wish I was that young still.
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Old 05-17-2013, 17:48   #197
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Wow. Just, wow.


So, you're essentially saying that a property owner has no right to ban guns, unless they express this verbally to a person? Further, you're saying this is the case, because that's what the law says.

I guess that means you believe the government is granting the property owner the right to ban guns - and that the owner has no authority or rights other than what is given to him by the government? Right?

The point WE are all trying to make, and that YOU are not getting is simple -

The right to ban guns on one's property exists, whether this is expressed verbally or via a sign. Your legislature has determined that a criminal offense has not occurred UNLESS the owner's wish is expressed verbally, true. That does not mean the owner does not have the right to ban guns - only that a criminal offense has not occurred.

See the difference?

Of course, there's always the fact that being polite and having manners is something that no longer exists in America, except in isolated pockets. The fact that you, and many other posters, conduct business at a place VOLUNTARILY, without being forced to go there, choose to not follow the wishers of the property owner. That's crass, rude, and generally boorish behavior. No one is forcing you to go to that business - thus, you can carry your gun elsewhere. Further, why would you want to do business with a company that doesn't respect your Constitutional right to carry a firearm? That would seem to be counterproductive to your beliefs.


You will likely disagree - but that's fine. You obviously don't get the fact that property rights exist, no matter WHAT the government says. Isn't that the big debacle nationally about guns right now? That WE have the right to carry guns, with very few restrictions?
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Old 05-17-2013, 18:25   #198
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Wow. Just, wow.


So, you're essentially saying that a property owner has no right to ban guns, unless they express this verbally to a person? Further, you're saying this is the case, because that's what the law says.

I guess that means you believe the government is granting the property owner the right to ban guns - and that the owner has no authority or rights other than what is given to him by the government? Right?

The point WE are all trying to make, and that YOU are not getting is simple -

The right to ban guns on one's property exists, whether this is expressed verbally or via a sign. Your legislature has determined that a criminal offense has not occurred UNLESS the owner's wish is expressed verbally, true. That does not mean the owner does not have the right to ban guns - only that a criminal offense has not occurred.

See the difference?

Of course, there's always the fact that being polite and having manners is something that no longer exists in America, except in isolated pockets. The fact that you, and many other posters, conduct business at a place VOLUNTARILY, without being forced to go there, choose to not follow the wishers of the property owner. That's crass, rude, and generally boorish behavior. No one is forcing you to go to that business - thus, you can carry your gun elsewhere. Further, why would you want to do business with a company that doesn't respect your Constitutional right to carry a firearm? That would seem to be counterproductive to your beliefs.


You will likely disagree - but that's fine. You obviously don't get the fact that property rights exist, no matter WHAT the government says. Isn't that the big debacle nationally about guns right now? That WE have the right to carry guns, with very few restrictions?
Do you not understand the relation of rights and laws? I guess not.

As far as where i spend my money, I spend my money where I can get the best value for what I am buying. Some of us have kids and don't have the luxury of lots of money to spend wherever regardless of how much it costs.

Last edited by Ryan WA; 05-17-2013 at 18:27..
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Old 05-17-2013, 19:44   #199
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I have four kids - next?

Further, I have rights that exist, no matter WHAT the law says. Care to debate THAT point?

Secondly, I deal with legal issues on a daily basis. It kinda goes with the turf when you're an officer.
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Old 05-17-2013, 20:32   #200
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I have four kids - next?

Further, I have rights that exist, no matter WHAT the law says. Care to debate THAT point?

Secondly, I deal with legal issues on a daily basis. It kinda goes with the turf when you're an officer.
I can say I have the right to speed, doesn't mean I do. It has to come form somewhere.
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