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Old 05-10-2013, 10:13   #101
Bill Lumberg
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The gun this thread was started to discuss definitely isn't comparable to glock in quality at this point. Others, like XD, really seem to be. To be fair, the croatian gun has been around a lot longer. I wouldn't expect it to take long to work out the bugs with M&P.

Disclaimer- I don't shoot guns on the internet. My only frame of reference is just under two decades of serving in LE and as an LE firearms instructor, and the actual malfunctions (or in some cases, the lack thereof) observed with my agency, and with the agencies and academies we communicate, train, or train with. If my direct experience has shown that a gun you read was horrible was actually excellent, my apologies. If my direct experience has shown that a gun you saw reviewed on youtube as flawless tends toward an unacceptable rate of failure or parts breakage, that in no way should threaten your view or position- if you saw it on the internet, after all, it's probably true. If you saw multiple people post the same assertion, it's gospel.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:24   #102
KalashniKEV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
Until you start shooting and the Glock produces shotgun patterns.
Hmmm... I know about the mechanical accuracy issues of the M&P line, which lead to the change in twist rate in search of something that would perform... haven't heard too many complaints about Glock other than the ejection angle.

This is the reason why the entire S&W shooting team is running a non-OEM, aftermarket Storm Lake Barrel in their M&Ps. The factory barrels are not acceptable.

This is unrelated to the poor trigger design in the M&P and the accuracy issues created by that.

Grip being a matter of personal preference, I do believe there might be some small handed folks out there who would experience better accuracy from the tiny guns.

I don't think that's the majority of shooters though...

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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
Of which started by the HK VP70, and not by Glock.
True, and it was a ferocious struggle for Glock to overcome the tremendous commercial success of the HK VP70 back in the early days of polymer framed guns...

Oh, wait... no it wasn't... because they barely sold any.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:27   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
True, and it was a ferocious struggle for Glock to overcome the tremendous commercial success of the HK VP70 back in the early days of polymer framed guns...

Oh, wait... no it wasn't... because they barely sold any.

Without the HK VP70 with its plastic frame and striker fire mechanism and high capacity mags, chances are Glock wouldn't know where to get the idea from.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:31   #104
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
Without the HK VP70 with its plastic frame and striker fire mechanism and high capacity mags, chances are Glock wouldn't know where to get the idea from.
I agree. No VP-70, no Glock.

At least not the Glock we know today. Glock had nothing to do with guns when the VP-70 was introduced.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:59   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Lumberg View Post
The gun this thread was started to discuss definitely isn't comparable to glock in quality at this point. Others, like XD, really seem to be. To be fair, the croatian gun has been around a lot longer. I wouldn't expect it to take long to work out the bugs with M&P.
?? XD is of better quality then the M&P. Not sure about that. Maybe when the M&Ps came out, but now, they are just as good as any modern firearm. On the other hand, i would never trust my life to an XD in my duty holster.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:10   #106
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I wouldn't have an issue carrying XD if glock were no longer available. I do think M&P has fixed some of their issues though. I'd carry an M&P over a Sigma.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:54   #107
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Maaan. There's some strong ignora...errr...umm...nonsense being spouted in this thread. Liking many varieties of firearms...I'll just stay out of the Kool Aid flavor war.

From a successfull business perspective...product innovation and marketing often makes a decent product successfull. Add top notch customer service and a willingness to improve the product as necessary...the item/s can become legendary...

For just so long.

While Glock is resting on it's worldwide market laurels and sales...they had better wake up if they want to be a dominant player in the market share. Even if a legend banks on a name and refuse to innovate or offer changes for a fickle market..."the legend" may remain but sales will fade.

Just ask Colt...
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Old 05-10-2013, 19:12   #108
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don't get to worried about the switch, S&W is given x amount of pistols to depts. with the purchase of there AR's. I was told by a NC State Trooper. He likes it okay, but misses his Sig. It is hard to pas up on a deal like that.
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:31   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Hmmm... I know about the mechanical accuracy issues of the M&P line, which lead to the change in twist rate in search of something that would perform... haven't heard too many complaints about Glock other than the ejection angle.

This is the reason why the entire S&W shooting team is running a non-OEM, aftermarket Storm Lake Barrel in their M&Ps. The factory barrels are not acceptable.

This is unrelated to the poor trigger design in the M&P and the accuracy issues created by that.

Grip being a matter of personal preference, I do believe there might be some small handed folks out there who would experience better accuracy from the tiny guns.

I don't think that's the majority of shooters though...



True, and it was a ferocious struggle for Glock to overcome the tremendous commercial success of the HK VP70 back in the early days of polymer framed guns...

Oh, wait... no it wasn't... because they barely sold any.

Are these thinly veiled cries for help? Hicock45 seemed to doing quite well in the video in which he is shooting a M&P. Better than any other gun I have seen him shoot.
I have two G19s and carrying them never made me feel >Godlike". I never knew a pistol could do that for a fellow.
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Old 05-10-2013, 23:36   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
This.

Supposedly this has been fixed with the newer models. My disappointing journey into the world of M&P left a bad taste in my mouth though- crap triggers, and after you rebuild the whole FCG with aftermarket Apex parts the barrel itself is incapable of producing acceptable accuracy.

People seem to have limitless patience for these guns though, even among some serious folks, which amazes me.

I put them right next to XD. Not ready for Prime Time.
M&P triggers used to be "spongy and gritty" Not anymore. They listen to their customers. Very happy with all four of mine. Stock outta the box.
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Old 05-11-2013, 00:23   #111
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I can only attest to what I am seeing the LE field. I see more and more officers carrying the M&P pistols. I think the current production M&Ps are on the same playing field as Glocks. M&P's have had some growing pains, nothing earth shattering about that. Glock did as well, there were broken frame rails on some early third gens, ( a manufacturing defect) and again problems when the 4th gens were released. It is the nature of the beast when you produce something new.

I love Glocks and have carried them for over 16 years. I also like my current production M&P, I have had three others. I also like my PPQ. Glock isn't the only game in town anymore, there are some excellent polymer weapon platforms available in today's market. The general consumer knows this and so do LE officers.

It is typically money issue when your talking about department issued weapons. S&W knows this and they are being very aggressive about it, San Antonio PD just switched from Glock to the M&P. S&W also steps up when a problem develops with the M&P. They address it, work out a fix, and implement it. I give them credit for not trying to blame any of those problems on weak ammo or the shooter.

S&W has worked out all the issues with the M&P, as far as accuracy, crappy trigger etc etc. Here is what my brand new out of the box M&P 9 did. Blazer Brass 115 gr, 20 yards supported.

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Old 05-11-2013, 05:48   #112
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Originally Posted by Beretta92guy View Post
agreed....and when glock decides to fix their damn extractors and the BTF issue, ill buy one of those too
I have never experienced any of those issues even with my newer Glocks. Maybe I have just been lucky or have not bought the correct model to have it happen. That being said, I absolutely hate the way the trigger feels with the design of the trigger safety. It does not feel like a crushed bag of potato chips as in the post you quoted, but it does feel like I am going to break the trigger in half on the first pull. My subsequent shots just ride it back until it resets so the first shot is the only time I notice this so it isn't that difficult to forgive. I will never give up my Glocks, but I also have to admit that the pistols feel much better in my hand with the smallest backstrap on them. My pistols from S&W right now are a M&P22 and a M&P9C. I am waiting on my LGS to get a 9mm Shield in as well.
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:01   #113
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I'm pretty happy with my new M&P CORE. Nice improvements over the early pros. Also like my Sigs and Walthers. It would be hard for me to pick one platform if I was limited to just owning a couple guns. Be kind of boring too.
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:02   #114
Ryobi
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Did you shoot them on the Internet? That's where the problems happen.
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
I have never experienced any of those issues even with my newer Glocks. Maybe I have just been lucky or have not bought the correct model .
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:51   #115
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I suspect that the cost/price equation changes very rapidly. Glock has had some really large orders (UK, AK for example) and are just now increasing production in US plant. They have reported a really large back order. When they can not make guns as fast as demand, then the price discounts are smaller. Apparently, S&W has more guns available and therefore are offering better deals. I feel that the Glock and S&W M&P are both top grade guns. XD not so much. If Ruger would go after the LEO business you would probably see them do well also.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:43   #116
KalashniKEV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneJessie View Post
I have two G19s and carrying them never made me feel >Godlike".
Maybe god-like is a bit too strong... it's a feeling perhaps somewhat akin to the way a young American officer might feel on the eve of the Normandy invasion... when briefing his British counterparts on the plan... like having a Garand slung over your shoulder and looking at an Enfield rifle like, "Oh.... hmmmm... sucks to be you."



BTW: Anyone on the ball could have scooped up some Gen3 G19 Goodness for $500 shipped last night from AIM.

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Old 05-11-2013, 11:15   #117
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I think M&P and Glock are at the same level, and a number of cop buddies either want to switch or have switched. My brother still loves his G22 for duty though.

Like others here I just flat disbelieve that XD is as good. I've had plenty of shooting time with all 3. While the XD isn't a bad gun, the quality deficit versus Glock/M&P is clear.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:59   #118
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I have both Glocks & S&W Pistols, shoot them all fairly good and love em all .
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Old 05-12-2013, 14:14   #119
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I so agree !!!!
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Old 05-12-2013, 14:40   #120
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I think it would be best that you stay in General Glocking. You'll find many more brainwashed folk over there.

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