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Old 05-07-2013, 22:47   #41
Nakanokalronin
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Originally Posted by HKLovingIT View Post
That is very interesting. So there is a definite reset point on this product improved version?
Very definite by feel and sound.
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Old 05-07-2013, 22:51   #42
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I think it was that stupid ass gen4 that turned alot of people away from glocks!







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Old 05-07-2013, 23:00   #43
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Originally Posted by G26S239 View Post
The only M&P I own is the M&P40c. It is a solid little gun, I like it. It will probably remain my only M&P but I understand why people like the series.
Fantastic pistols, I've got a 40c and 9c and love them, they fit in well with my 26, 33, and 36. Love em, nice and easy to shoot
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:10   #44
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Originally Posted by HKLovingIT View Post
I wonder if Glock and Smith, etc. actually make a ton of money from these department purchases or if its purpose is just for locking in marketing collateral.

They seem to sell them to the departments for peanuts so, just talking out my hole, I would imagine they would each like to get their product in as many departments as possible so they can say "carried by 65% of the nations officers."

I expect they know that that kind of marketing clout will directly influence civilian sales and locations where the officers have to purchase their own firearm.

Anyway, I like the M&P a lot. I have the 45c and 9c. Great pistols.

I'm also glad Smith & Wesson is giving them some solid competition. It's good for everyone when the manufacturers are more motivated.
I agree with you 100%! First time buyers "know" it's gotta be good cuz all the cops got em! Hello? the other half of the story is the trade in's-which are sold to large outlets like Bud's and everybody makes a buck. Ain't it great! As for me- I'd rather sit at home and want a Smith than own a ....
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:39   #45
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So, a Glock/M&P is MSRP at about $550? They could probably sell the various LEAs for half that and till make money.
I think you could have said one third the retail price and been a lot closer!It's been so long ago that I read about glocks, I'm not even sure if it is fact or fiction-a glock costs $37 to build (in early 90's dollars) I for one beleive it! It's their whole marketing plan that must be commended!! NO cut throat sales, push the prefection angle till "they" beleive it!! Do what ever it takes to put one in as many Big City cop holisters as posible. Change nothing. Set back and let the MONEY roll in.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:04   #46
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Unless you own stock in the company. Who cares? Buy what you like. Shoot it. Enjoy it.
That's kind of my outlook on all of the numerous polymer pistols on the market. Buy what you like.

I really couldn't care less which is more popular.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:38   #47
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S&W owned the police market for decades with the model 10 and model 15 revolvers. Then when depts switched over to .357 mag it was the model 19, 586 and 686 that dominated.
Glock has only had it's leadership position for ten to fifteen years.

I had a S&W M&P 9. I just could not get past the crappy trigger on it. The ergos are superior to Glock in my opinion. But no mater how much I shot it I just could not get the accuracy that I felt was acceptable. During dry fire you could literally see the front end jump when the trigger broke. I was not going to spend a minimum of $85.00 on Apex parts to get the thing running right so I traded it off. I just bought a G19 Gen 4. I guess I will stick with Glock when it comes to combat Tupperware. You will never get me to give up my S&W revolvers though.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:02   #48
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
And we all know how many "product improvements" that Glock had gone through too, huh?
Glock doesn't chase trends. They are the rock.

Besides that, there's always going to be the "gotta be different" crowd- which there is no point in chasing anyway, because their goal is to differentiate themselves from the crowd.

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I think the biggest reason is the Steyr actually feels better in my hand and the Glock feels like holding a brick sideways in my hand
The Steyr has an improper grip angle better suited for anti-aircraft use.

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Originally Posted by WayneJessie View Post
Dude, you obviously don't own a Steyr.
I've shot them. I agree that they are well made, but their numerous flaws have prevented them from being picked up by any serious user.

If you were in the market a few years back, you could have picked one up for peanuts from CDNN on closeout. They feature "straight up ejection" and have bad mags with weak springs though.

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Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
The Steyr line is outstanding, in my opinion.
In addition to the grip angle issue, there is the freaky-deaky stock sights (easily replaced) and a general awkwardness to the balance and ergos... which was made even worse with the addition of a rail.

I know that grip angle is a matter of personal preference, and truly if you drive the front sight on target the angle *should* be irrelevant... but you shouldn't have to fight the gun either, IMO.

I will say that the trigger is Glock-like, and far better than any M&P I've felt.

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Originally Posted by mrsurfboard View Post
To say the M&P is not ready for primetime is a statement from someone who doesn't own and has probably never shot one. You are also more then likely a rabid Glock fan boy.
Back to the M&P- Trusted people are still saying "Apex parts are a must" with these. I would tend to agree.

If they can solve their barrel issues (I've heard they did and I've heard they didn't) and somehow get Randy Lee to sign over his patents ($$,$$$,$$$) then I think they'd certainly have a shot at challenging Glock on performance, without modification.

Until then they will compete on price to get professional users and sell parts kits to the gotta-be-different crowd.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:44   #49
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Glock doesn't chase trends. They are the rock.

The Steyr has an improper grip angle better suited for anti-aircraft use.
Says who? You?
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:49   #50
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you mean the Glock gen4 RSA recalls, Brass to Face issues , and all of GG blaming them on weak 115g ammo or limpwristing? that QC?
Not to mention the older generations that came apart during the Frisbee test. Trigger group got all jacked up when left in the half-cock position over prolonged period which resulted in "product improvement" that switched out the old copper color trigger mechanism for the black color one.

And the kaBoom thing...

But other than that, Glock is ready for prime time.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:48   #51
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Says who? You?
Yes.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:30   #52
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Yes.
John Wayne...is that you?
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:32   #53
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I thought it was kind of interesting that Glock is starting to be out Glocked with PD's here in the states by S&W, and in Europe many PDs and Gov'ts seem to like the CZ's. I believe Glock is loosing ground, world wide because they are not progressing with the times. You simply cannot keep making the same basic product year after year and expect to remain on top. It's never worked in the past and won't work today. Many Glock fans have dared to think outside the Glock box and have moved on to other brands.
I personally could care less as I have no dog in the fight, but it is still interesting to hear and see how thoughts and opinions change through the years.
I'm not a Glock hater but I do think Glock better get some fresh thinkers with new ideas who are willing to listen to what there customers want in the company very soon.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:45   #54
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Yes, S&W has quietly been amassing quite a growing list of LE customers. They're once again becoming a strong presence in the LE/Gov firearms field.

They've not only created a substantial agency customer base in the US, but last I heard, their M&P pistol & rifle lines have been purchased by agencies in something like 16 foreign countries.

They're still many months out when it comes to being able to fill existing orders, even though they've continually expanded factory space for production and are running shifts round the clock.

My former agency is preparing to implement a transition over to M&P's (from still fairly new TSW's), but they've also implemented a policy to allow folks to buy and carry their own pistols from an approved list which includes Glock.

I expect some folks who have always favored Glocks to take advantage of the new policy and buy Glocks (or carry an existing Glock they've carried for off-duty), and others to take whatever is being issued. Many seem quite anxious to get the M&P's, and a growing number have been buying them for off-duty weapons.

As long as they're able to perform basic maintenance of their weapons in an approved & optimal manner, and demonstrate good handling & shooting skills, I couldn't care less what they choose to use. It's a handgun being employed as a dedicated duty weapon. That's all.

I own both Glocks & M&P's. I've been to the armorer classes for each (incl recerts). I like and will continue to own & use both. I think both are fine for their intended roles, and each has their advantages & disadvantages.

I do think, however, that the M&P offers some interesting, practical refinements and features when it comes to the plastic pistol genre.

Oh, yeah, S&W also has a huge advantage when it comes to the offering other support to LE agencies. In addition to the duty pistol line of M&P's (full-size & compact), they can offer smaller & slimmer (single stack) 9./.40 & .380 pistols for secondary/backup weapons (Shield & Bodyguard .380), and they can also offer their wide variety of DAO J-frame snub revolvers (which are still very popular among LE).

Then, there's the ability to sell Patrol Rifles & Carbines in any of a variety of configurations and popular LE calibers.

They can offer a complete package deal, backed up by armorer training and factory support that is pretty fast and consistent. They're going to be a dominant force in the market again.

This is good for us, as competition makes for increasingly better choices for us.

Now, if only Walther will take advantage of becoming their own importer for the first time, and consider sticking their toes into the LE/Gov market in the US.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:00   #55
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Since I'm in SA, I just wanna know where I can pick up a police trade-in G22.
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Old 05-08-2013, 13:10   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hafler View Post
I've been noticing quite a few smaller PD's in my area switching from Glocks. Looks like they lost another pretty good size account in Texas.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/texas...)&utm_content=
I saw a video on the Military Arms Channel where Mac was talking about Glock and resting on their laurels.

Glock really perfected the polymer frame pistol, but "what have they done for us lately" other than change texturing and being able to change backstraps? They haven't brought anyting truly new to the marketplace other than tweaks.

THey need some thing new...like a single-stack 9mm!
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Old 05-08-2013, 13:27   #57
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They need to make a pistol caliber carbine to compliment their fantastic magazines and extend the range and accuracy of their handguns. If Beretta and KelTec can do it for their handguns...Glock could do it better.

Now if S&W beats them to the punch and makes a pistol caliber carbine that takes M&P mags...then Glock will have missed another great opportunity again.

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Old 05-08-2013, 14:00   #58
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Glock doesn't chase trends. They are the rock.

Besides that, there's always going to be the "gotta be different" crowd- which there is no point in chasing anyway, because their goal is to differentiate themselves from the crowd.



The Steyr has an improper grip angle better suited for anti-aircraft use.



I've shot them. I agree that they are well made, but their numerous flaws have prevented them from being picked up by any serious user.

If you were in the market a few years back, you could have picked one up for peanuts from CDNN on closeout. They feature "straight up ejection" and have bad mags with weak springs though.



In addition to the grip angle issue, there is the freaky-deaky stock sights (easily replaced) and a general awkwardness to the balance and ergos... which was made even worse with the addition of a rail.

I know that grip angle is a matter of personal preference, and truly if you drive the front sight on target the angle *should* be irrelevant... but you shouldn't have to fight the gun either, IMO.

I will say that the trigger is Glock-like, and far better than any M&P I've felt.



Back to the M&P- Trusted people are still saying "Apex parts are a must" with these. I would tend to agree.

If they can solve their barrel issues (I've heard they did and I've heard they didn't) and somehow get Randy Lee to sign over his patents ($$,$$$,$$$) then I think they'd certainly have a shot at challenging Glock on performance, without modification.

Until then they will compete on price to get professional users and sell parts kits to the gotta-be-different crowd.
No numerous flaws on a Steyr. They did have irratic ejection problems when they first went to MIM extractors. Unlike Glock; Styer updated the extractor and replaced them all free of charge to the customer and the issue was solved. Glock on the other hand, tells everyone to shoot hotter ammo. Thre "bad mag" issue as you call also was fixed for free to the customer many, many moons ago. If you don't care for the Steyr that's cool but please limit the misinformation.
I have a Gen4 and if I had it to do over I would not have a Gen4.
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Old 05-08-2013, 14:08   #59
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Originally Posted by WayneJessie View Post

1) They did have irratic ejection problems...
2) Thre "bad mag" issue as you call also was fixed...
Which leaves the goofy sights and goofy grip angle.

Everything is a matter of personal preference. Maybe if you are transitioning over from the Nintendo Light Gun, the grip is absolutely perfect for you, maybe if you can read the LCD numbers on the Predator's arm, the sights work great.

The fact is that if you came by one of the CDNN closeout guns, you will be dealing with a few different customer service issues before you have a working gun.
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Old 05-08-2013, 14:31   #60
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Which leaves the goofy sights and goofy grip angle.

Everything is a matter of personal preference. Maybe if you are transitioning over from the Nintendo Light Gun, the grip is absolutely perfect for you, maybe if you can read the LCD numbers on the Predator's arm, the sights work great.

The fact is that if you came by one of the CDNN closeout guns, you will be dealing with a few different customer service issues before you have a working gun.
I have a new Gen4 and am dealing with customer service issues so what's your point? My point is Steyr fixed their problems but Glock has not. I never heard anyone who owned a Glock be critical of the grip angle of another gun until you. You certainly are a card
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