GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-07-2013, 16:24   #26
oldnoob
Senior Member
 
oldnoob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: City of Angel, California
Posts: 4,263
IMO Glock's biggest accomplishment (as far as production goes) is their QC. They got that thing down and make their name for it. Steyr and Caracal will have hard time meeting that. I do have a Steyr M40A1 and if you have one, you can tell someone had "improve my Glock" in mind when designing that pistol.

As to OP, I like M&P alright. But it's trigger sucks, even more so than Glock. Feel great in my hand though.
__________________
Taiwan born, Chinese descent, red white and freaking blue America citizen.

http://oldnoobloveguns.blogspot.com/

http://oldnoob.maxforum.org My mini forum.
oldnoob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 16:46   #27
FLglockdude
Senior Member
 
FLglockdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: East Central Florida
Posts: 1,750
The Glocks I used to own were sold and replaced with M&Ps. I much prefer it over a Glock. The stock trigger out of the box does suck but smooths out with use. Even with a crappy new gun trigger I had no problems being accurate with them.

Sent from my Obama phone.
FLglockdude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 16:54   #28
Bruce M
Senior Member
 
Bruce M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: S FL
Posts: 20,031
I doubt Glock is especially worried, especially considering their backorder status. Likewise S&W seems to have some models that need a waiting period.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HKLovingIT View Post
I wonder if Glock and Smith, etc. actually make a ton of money from these department purchases or if its purpose is just for locking in marketing collateral.

They seem to sell them to the departments for peanuts so, just talking out my hole, I would imagine they would each like to get their product in as many departments as possible so they can say "carried by 65% of the nations officers."

I expect they know that that kind of marketing clout will directly influence civilian sales and locations where the officers have to purchase their own firearm.

Anyway, I like the M&P a lot. I have the 45c and 9c. Great pistols.

I'm also glad Smith & Wesson is giving them some solid competition. It's good for everyone when the manufacturers are more motivated.

I understand what you are saying, but consider that some of the stuff for a sale of 2600 pistols really isn't different than the sale of one or ten. "Hi I want to order a M&P. We have an account and I have a purchase order here." "Hi I want to order 2600 M&PS under our account. Here is the purchase order." Likewise handling a few guns with problems might be a touch easier when the customer bought a couple hundred extra. "Yes I have heard of a couple with that issue. When you get half a dozen, let me know and I will send you a label. Ship 'em to us and we will fix or replace them." That guy just handled the customer service for fixing six guns in less time than it takes another guy to handle one with an irate customer. (I realize I am simplifying some of this, but I am guessing you get the idea.) My guess is that even with guns personnel costs are at least as much as the materials for the guns themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightstalker865 View Post
I just wish S&W would do the same Mil/LE pricing as glock. It's great be able to pick up any glock in the line up on the blue label program. I have only seen the M&P full size and compacts on the Mil pricing list through S&W. I would be very interested in picking up a shield and pro series, but can't justify the crazy high prices when blue label glocks are reasonable and easy to find.
S&W had a fairly aggressive program for more than a few of their guns not that long ago. If I remember the law enforcement price for the Shield is very competetive compared to the $ 398 Glock 26.
__________________
Bruce
I never talked to anyone who had to fire their gun who said "I wished I had the smaller gun and fewer rounds with me" Just because you find a hundred people who agree with you on the internet does not mean you're right.

Last edited by Bruce M; 05-07-2013 at 16:58..
Bruce M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 16:54   #29
Beretta92guy
Senior Member
 
Beretta92guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by 03scgt View Post
When they decide to make a stock trigger that doesn't feel like its going to snap in half or have a pull similar to the feel of a bag of broken potato chips I'll buy another.they are pretty comfortable in the hand
agreed....and when glock decides to fix their damn extractors and the BTF issue, ill buy one of those too
Beretta92guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 17:02   #30
RHVEtte
Senior Member
 
RHVEtte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,847
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKLovingIT View Post
I wonder if Glock and Smith, etc. actually make a ton of money from these department purchases or if its purpose is just for locking in marketing collateral.

They seem to sell them to the departments for peanuts so, just talking out my hole, I would imagine they would each like to get their product in as many departments as possible so they can say "carried by 65% of the nations officers."

I expect they know that that kind of marketing clout will directly influence civilian sales and locations where the officers have to purchase their own firearm.

Anyway, I like the M&P a lot. I have the 45c and 9c. Great pistols.

I'm also glad Smith & Wesson is giving them some solid competition. It's good for everyone when the manufacturers are more motivated.
A little of Column A and a little of Column B, I'd reckon. If they're moving that volume of product and not making a profit on it, they're idiots. That said, they probably run LE sales on reduced margin to 1, get the sale, and 2, get the market share for advertising. E.G., if they sell civilian GLOCKs as 25% margin, they might move LE GLOCKs at 10-15% margin.
__________________
Liberty is a candle in a tempest. It is a rare and beautiful thing that must be jealously guarded, lest it be snuffed out. And like the candle, Liberty under tyranny is difficult to reignite. -- undoubtedly said by someone smarter than I.
RHVEtte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 17:04   #31
eb07
Sharkin'
 
eb07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Third Rock From the Sun
Posts: 2,038
Unless you own stock in the company. Who cares? Buy what you like. Shoot it. Enjoy it.
eb07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 17:19   #32
bac1023
Senior Member
 
bac1023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 87,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
...and turned out another polymer framed pistol that is inferior to Glock?

He did that before too- and we all know what a great success those freaky Steyr pistols were.

The Steyr line is outstanding, in my opinion.
__________________
.

1911 Buyer's Guide
bac1023 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 17:20   #33
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,158
I sold my first FS 9mm M&P last year due to horrible accuracy (8-10" groups at 15 yards) even after 2 trips back to S&W with one trip back with a new barrel. Didn't matter what weight, pressure or brand of ammo, the accuracy sucked. I even did the Apex sear, polished the striker block myself and wasted 500+ rounds on it since people where claiming it was me getting used to the trigger even though every other gun I've owned shot better.

I was hoping they would improve them at some point and once I heard about the new triggers and barrels being put in the M&Ps I waited until I found one because other than the FS 9mm accuracy, everything on the M&P series is perfect. Well I found one recently with the Shield like trigger and different barrel twist so I took a chance. First outing had me shooting sub 2.5" groups right off the bat with any ammo weight. Now I'm happy.

General Firearms Forum


You can see the new stock sear is VERY close to the Apex hard sear. Below is the Apex sear on the left and my new stock sear on the right.
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum

Last edited by Nakanokalronin; 05-07-2013 at 17:29..
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 17:20   #34
bac1023
Senior Member
 
bac1023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 87,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Hafler View Post
I've been noticing quite a few smaller PD's in my area switching from Glocks. Looks like they lost another pretty good size account in Texas.

http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/texas...)&utm_content=
Good to here...

M&Ps are great pistols.
__________________
.

1911 Buyer's Guide

Last edited by bac1023; 05-07-2013 at 17:21..
bac1023 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 17:27   #35
mrsurfboard
The Anti-Glock
 
mrsurfboard's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
This.

Supposedly this has been fixed with the newer models. My disappointing journey into the world of M&P left a bad taste in my mouth though- crap triggers, and after you rebuild the whole FCG with aftermarket Apex parts the barrel itself is incapable of producing acceptable accuracy.

People seem to have limitless patience for these guns though, even among some serious folks, which amazes me.

I put them right next to XD. Not ready for Prime Time.
You might say the same thing for late model gen 3 and certain gen 4 model Glocks. I read endless post in GG about brass to the face, extrator replacements, RSA replacements and such. To say the M&P is not ready for primetime is a statement from someone who doesn't own and has probably never shot one. You are also more then likely a rabid Glock fan boy.
__________________
Sig P225/S&W 60, 66, M&P 45, M&P 9c, 1911SC/Glock G22 Gen4, G23 Gen4 & G36/Kimber Pro Tactical II/Ruger Mk II/H&K P30, 45c/Colt Defender
mrsurfboard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 17:35   #36
vettely
Senior Member
 
vettely's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: TX
Posts: 1,242
Below are the Glocks I have carried on duty for my first 17 years. On top what I've been carrying the past 3 years. Trigger is smooth, nice.

General Firearms Forum
__________________
N.R.A. Life Member
vettely is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 19:54   #37
raven11
Senior Member
 
raven11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,580
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldnoob View Post
IMO Glock's biggest accomplishment (as far as production goes) is their QC. They got that thing down and make their name for it.
you mean the Glock gen4 RSA recalls, Brass to Face issues , and all of GG blaming them on weak 115g ammo or limpwristing? that QC?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by oISHUTupNrocKIo View Post
He's actually wrong, after 8-9 shots with a 9mm bullet, you actually get a text on your phone saying "You are being shot at by a 9mm, don't worry, just ignore him and walk away."
raven11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 20:15   #38
HKLovingIT
Resident Evil
 
HKLovingIT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Out On The Tiles
Posts: 4,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanokalronin View Post
I sold my first FS 9mm M&P last year due to horrible accuracy (8-10" groups at 15 yards) even after 2 trips back to S&W with one trip back with a new barrel. Didn't matter what weight, pressure or brand of ammo, the accuracy sucked. I even did the Apex sear, polished the striker block myself and wasted 500+ rounds on it since people where claiming it was me getting used to the trigger even though every other gun I've owned shot better.

I was hoping they would improve them at some point and once I heard about the new triggers and barrels being put in the M&Ps I waited until I found one because other than the FS 9mm accuracy, everything on the M&P series is perfect. Well I found one recently with the Shield like trigger and different barrel twist so I took a chance. First outing had me shooting sub 2.5" groups right off the bat with any ammo weight. Now I'm happy.

General Firearms Forum


You can see the new stock sear is VERY close to the Apex hard sear. Below is the Apex sear on the left and my new stock sear on the right.
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum
General Firearms Forum


That is very interesting. So there is a definite reset point on this product improved version?
__________________
Jesus didn't have a stunt double, and neither do you...

кто пукнул здесь?
Nescio, sed foetet.
HKLovingIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 21:10   #39
mixflip
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,673
My dept recently made the switch to the M&P40. I know 2 other depots that also made the switch. I love my Glocks but I also love the M&P. S&W fixed the vague trigger reset on all M&PS made after October 2012 so there is no more trigger reset complaints from me.

Ergos. Great adjustable back strap. Nice grip angle. Dovetail steel sights front and rear. Nice slide serrations. Steel guide rod. No dry fire field strip. American made! S&W hit a home run with this one.

posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
mixflip is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 21:24   #40
Shockem841
Member
 
Shockem841's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: IA
Posts: 95
I think it was that stupid ass gen4 that turned alot of people away from glocks!
__________________
Uncertified Glock Armorer
Shockem841 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 22:47   #41
Nakanokalronin
JMB & MTK
 
Nakanokalronin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKLovingIT View Post
That is very interesting. So there is a definite reset point on this product improved version?
Very definite by feel and sound.
Nakanokalronin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 22:51   #42
Glock 23 Nutter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shockem841 View Post
I think it was that stupid ass gen4 that turned alot of people away from glocks!







Nutter
Glock 23 Nutter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2013, 23:00   #43
PIMking
Im weird
 
PIMking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Alabama
Posts: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by G26S239 View Post
The only M&P I own is the M&P40c. It is a solid little gun, I like it. It will probably remain my only M&P but I understand why people like the series.
Fantastic pistols, I've got a 40c and 9c and love them, they fit in well with my 26, 33, and 36. Love em, nice and easy to shoot
PIMking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 02:10   #44
just for fun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: south Ga.
Posts: 1,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKLovingIT View Post
I wonder if Glock and Smith, etc. actually make a ton of money from these department purchases or if its purpose is just for locking in marketing collateral.

They seem to sell them to the departments for peanuts so, just talking out my hole, I would imagine they would each like to get their product in as many departments as possible so they can say "carried by 65% of the nations officers."

I expect they know that that kind of marketing clout will directly influence civilian sales and locations where the officers have to purchase their own firearm.

Anyway, I like the M&P a lot. I have the 45c and 9c. Great pistols.

I'm also glad Smith & Wesson is giving them some solid competition. It's good for everyone when the manufacturers are more motivated.
I agree with you 100%! First time buyers "know" it's gotta be good cuz all the cops got em! Hello? the other half of the story is the trade in's-which are sold to large outlets like Bud's and everybody makes a buck. Ain't it great! As for me- I'd rather sit at home and want a Smith than own a ....
just for fun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 02:39   #45
just for fun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: south Ga.
Posts: 1,405
Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
So, a Glock/M&P is MSRP at about $550? They could probably sell the various LEAs for half that and till make money.
I think you could have said one third the retail price and been a lot closer!It's been so long ago that I read about glocks, I'm not even sure if it is fact or fiction-a glock costs $37 to build (in early 90's dollars) I for one beleive it! It's their whole marketing plan that must be commended!! NO cut throat sales, push the prefection angle till "they" beleive it!! Do what ever it takes to put one in as many Big City cop holisters as posible. Change nothing. Set back and let the MONEY roll in.
just for fun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 03:04   #46
bac1023
Senior Member
 
bac1023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 87,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
Unless you own stock in the company. Who cares? Buy what you like. Shoot it. Enjoy it.
That's kind of my outlook on all of the numerous polymer pistols on the market. Buy what you like.

I really couldn't care less which is more popular.
__________________
.

1911 Buyer's Guide
bac1023 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 03:38   #47
sarge1967
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 87
S&W owned the police market for decades with the model 10 and model 15 revolvers. Then when depts switched over to .357 mag it was the model 19, 586 and 686 that dominated.
Glock has only had it's leadership position for ten to fifteen years.

I had a S&W M&P 9. I just could not get past the crappy trigger on it. The ergos are superior to Glock in my opinion. But no mater how much I shot it I just could not get the accuracy that I felt was acceptable. During dry fire you could literally see the front end jump when the trigger broke. I was not going to spend a minimum of $85.00 on Apex parts to get the thing running right so I traded it off. I just bought a G19 Gen 4. I guess I will stick with Glock when it comes to combat Tupperware. You will never get me to give up my S&W revolvers though.
sarge1967 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 07:02   #48
KalashniKEV
Senior Member
 
KalashniKEV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NoVA
Posts: 4,954
Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
And we all know how many "product improvements" that Glock had gone through too, huh?
Glock doesn't chase trends. They are the rock.

Besides that, there's always going to be the "gotta be different" crowd- which there is no point in chasing anyway, because their goal is to differentiate themselves from the crowd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBennett View Post
I think the biggest reason is the Steyr actually feels better in my hand and the Glock feels like holding a brick sideways in my hand
The Steyr has an improper grip angle better suited for anti-aircraft use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WayneJessie View Post
Dude, you obviously don't own a Steyr.
I've shot them. I agree that they are well made, but their numerous flaws have prevented them from being picked up by any serious user.

If you were in the market a few years back, you could have picked one up for peanuts from CDNN on closeout. They feature "straight up ejection" and have bad mags with weak springs though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bac1023 View Post
The Steyr line is outstanding, in my opinion.
In addition to the grip angle issue, there is the freaky-deaky stock sights (easily replaced) and a general awkwardness to the balance and ergos... which was made even worse with the addition of a rail.

I know that grip angle is a matter of personal preference, and truly if you drive the front sight on target the angle *should* be irrelevant... but you shouldn't have to fight the gun either, IMO.

I will say that the trigger is Glock-like, and far better than any M&P I've felt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsurfboard View Post
To say the M&P is not ready for primetime is a statement from someone who doesn't own and has probably never shot one. You are also more then likely a rabid Glock fan boy.
Back to the M&P- Trusted people are still saying "Apex parts are a must" with these. I would tend to agree.

If they can solve their barrel issues (I've heard they did and I've heard they didn't) and somehow get Randy Lee to sign over his patents ($$,$$$,$$$) then I think they'd certainly have a shot at challenging Glock on performance, without modification.

Until then they will compete on price to get professional users and sell parts kits to the gotta-be-different crowd.
KalashniKEV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 07:44   #49
bac1023
Senior Member
 
bac1023's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: PA
Posts: 87,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Glock doesn't chase trends. They are the rock.

The Steyr has an improper grip angle better suited for anti-aircraft use.
Says who? You?
__________________
.

1911 Buyer's Guide
bac1023 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 07:49   #50
fnfalman
Chicks Dig It
 
fnfalman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: California & New Mexico, US
Posts: 54,772


Quote:
Originally Posted by raven11 View Post
you mean the Glock gen4 RSA recalls, Brass to Face issues , and all of GG blaming them on weak 115g ammo or limpwristing? that QC?
Not to mention the older generations that came apart during the Frisbee test. Trigger group got all jacked up when left in the half-cock position over prolonged period which resulted in "product improvement" that switched out the old copper color trigger mechanism for the black color one.

And the kaBoom thing...

But other than that, Glock is ready for prime time.
__________________
Can you dig it?
fnfalman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:30.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 864
231 Members
633 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42