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Old 05-09-2013, 09:11   #201
HarlDane
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Originally Posted by 427 View Post
State reaching into another state to collect taxes on businesses without having a say in the taxing state is that not .gov overreach? That's taxation without representation.
There is no taxation without representation. You pay the taxes to your local State and municipalities. If you don't like your local sales tax, you need to take it up with them.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:14   #202
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Virtually every post regarding this subject is forgetting one simple fact: Taxes were instituted in order to pay for services provided by the government that people can't provide for themselves...roads, bridges, public safety etc. They were not implemented to "level the playing field" or any other such nonsense. So I ask the question, what service(s) is the government going to provide directly related to internet sales? As someone who has held a high elected office, I can't fathom voting for such crap, much less people saying that it is a good thing.
You can answer that question yourself by looking up the breakdown of sales tax for your locality. It shouldn't be any different.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:20   #203
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Originally Posted by BoomerMan View Post
Virtually every post regarding this subject is forgetting one simple fact: Taxes were instituted in order to pay for services provided by the government that people can't provide for themselves...roads, bridges, public safety etc. They were not implemented to "level the playing field" or any other such nonsense. So I ask the question, what service(s) is the government going to provide directly related to internet sales? As someone who has held a high elected office, I can't fathom voting for such crap, much less people saying that it is a good thing.
For me, this isn't about revenue collection, it's about government policies that create distinct advantages for certain groups while at the same time placing burdens on their competition.

Leveling the playing field is generally not the role of government, but in this case it's only leveling that which the government skewed to begin with.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:27   #204
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Originally Posted by HarlDane View Post
For me, this isn't about revenue collection, it's about government policies that create distinct advantages for certain groups while at the same time placing burdens on their competition.

Leveling the playing field is generally not the role of government, but in this case it's only leveling that which the government skewed to begin with.
Agreed. The .gov allowed a discontinuity giving some advantages over others.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:42   #205
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No, it balances regulations in a more equal manner. The only thing worse than government regulation is government regulation that unfairly burdens some while creating advantages for others.
That, sir, is a matter of perspective.

If a bill such as this passes, online-only entities will be burdened with far more requirements than brick and mortar entities. They will have to collect taxes for states that they do not actually have any kind of physical presence in.

A nationwide chain B&M has to deal w/ the multitude of tax regulations - but they are actually physically operating in all of those tax jurisdictions.

The guy who opens one B&M store only has to deal with the taxes of the *one* location he is operating.

Under this, the guy who opens an online store with *one* physical location (The physical places that they actually take orders and ship them) is going to have to deal with regulations as though he were actually running a B&M store with locations nationwide.

If the issue is really a matter of leveling the playing field - an actual solution would be to have the online operation collect state sales tax for the state or state(s) the online entity has physical operations in - just like a B&M store collects sales tax for the state their physical locations are operating in. In this case both the B&M stores and the online stores are collecting sales tax for the places they have actual physical operations in - which is apples-to-apples.

That would, however, result in online-only operations setting up their physical locations (distribution centers and warehouses and corporate headquarters and such) in states with no sales tax - and then the states that want to get all "their" money wouldn't get all "their" money.

Edited to add:
So let's not pretend it's about leveling the playing field. It isn't. It's about states wanting to get paid taxes that citizens of that state should be paying according to the tax law of that state.

So what's the online retailer in state X have to do with state Y or collecting state Y's taxes? Nothing, actually.

Bottom line, I think, is if a state that has sales tax has laws that require citizens of that state to pay sales tax on online purchases ... *that state* should bear the burden of enforcing those laws and collecting those taxes from those citizens that should be paying the tax. That burden should not be foisted upon businesses that really have nothing to do with that state other than they happen to ship orders there.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:45   #206
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If they start taxing e-sales, it will hurt internet businesses. The main reason I buy online is "NO TAX & FREE SHIPPING". Otherwise, whats the incentive?? If I gotta pay tax and shipping then I would rather go to my local brick and mortar store and have product in hand and not have to wait for it to arrive on the Big brown truck.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:55   #207
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You should take your own advice about reading comprehension as I asked a yes or no question.
Sorry about that. I also missed the part where you set rules for me to follow. See how that works.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:07   #208
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Does anyone know how they propose businesses will actually report and pay these collected taxes? Would there be a federal standard form for businesses to send the sales tax reports with? Or does the business have to register for a sales tax permit from every state? I have had businesses in two different states and can say that it is very difficult to learn how to comply with the laws of each state. Even the forms can be confusing. If we had to register with each state and comply with all their unique methods and forms, I think it could very well mean hiring several full time employees to set up websites, accounting software, etc. After that, I couldn't imagine being able to submit the taxes without another at least part time employee, possibly full time.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:07   #209
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The amount of people in this thread going to bat for the government, gleeful in the knowledge that their masters are becoming more efficient in relieving them of their money, is enough to make any sane man vomit.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:19   #210
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Why do we need to add more tax pages to already a 40k page of tax regulations? Why don't we kill all the tax system and to only tax all sales with 10%? It will force a tyrannical Gov't to collapse.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:23   #211
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The amount of people in this thread going to bat for the government, gleeful in the knowledge that their masters are becoming more efficient in relieving them of their money, is enough to make any sane man vomit.
What shocks me is the number of so called small government libertarians who are just fine with the government picking winners and losers in the market place, provided they are on the winning side. Pure hypocrisy.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:47   #212
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The amount of people in this thread going to bat for the government, gleeful in the knowledge that their masters are becoming more efficient in relieving them of their money, is enough to make any sane man vomit.
I don't think they are going to bat for the government. I think they are saying taxes are already supposed to be collected.

Yeah, it sucks the way they are doing it, but it's not a new tax by any means.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:44   #213
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Its an "over reach" to close a loop hole?


Of course little business's oppose it, they're hiding behind it to make an extra buck.


Its going to pass, it might take a while, but it will. And then you'll have to pay the taxes you've been dodging.
Yeah, small businesses really rake it in.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:50   #214
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There is no taxation without representation. You pay the taxes to your local State and municipalities. If you don't like your local sales tax, you need to take it up with them.
You're actually forcing businesses in other states do local and state sales tax collection without compensation - no brick and mortar business has to be set up to deal with more than one set of sales taxes per individual location. A small internet business must now be able to do what large and multinational businesses have whole accounting departments to do and that couldn't possibly hurt their bottomm line and profitability now, could it?
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:55   #215
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I don't think they are going to bat for the government. I think they are saying taxes are already supposed to be collected.

Yeah, it sucks the way they are doing it, but it's not a new tax by any means.
Let's not think of it as a new tax, because pretty much everyone agrees that it isn't, at least by statute (de jure). It is, however, de facto, in that it was almost unenforceable previously. What it definitely is is a new set of regulatory burdens that disproportionately affect small businesses. In no way does it equalize the playing field like some fools here have been saying, other than, maybe, to distribute misery more equally (remind you of the failed ideology that is Socialism?).
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:59   #216
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You're actually forcing businesses in other states do local and state sales tax collection without compensation - no brick and mortar business has to be set up to deal with more than one set of sales taxes per individual location. A small internet business must now be able to do what large and multinational businesses have whole accounting departments to do and that couldn't possibly hurt their bottomm line and profitability now, could it?
There are plenty of B&M businesses that operate in multiple locations. If the internet businesses can't compete they need to limit the scope of their business to what they can handle, not have special rules made for them.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:02   #217
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I sell those exact same products through my ebay store, as do many fellow sellers I know. We buy these items "used". Taxes have already been paid once on these items... How is it fair that they be paid again? I know you said that this is a seperate issue, but I'm not understanding how?
Ask the auto industry how this is fair. They have been operating like that for as far back as I can remember.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:02   #218
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Does anyone know how they propose businesses will actually report and pay these collected taxes? Would there be a federal standard form for businesses to send the sales tax reports with? Or does the business have to register for a sales tax permit from every state? I have had businesses in two different states and can say that it is very difficult to learn how to comply with the laws of each state. Even the forms can be confusing. If we had to register with each state and comply with all their unique methods and forms, I think it could very well mean hiring several full time employees to set up websites, accounting software, etc. After that, I couldn't imagine being able to submit the taxes without another at least part time employee, possibly full time.
The federal law specifies that it will be paid to each state, then distributed down to the local level and that states will need to provide the software to calculate the sales taxes. This possibly means that the 46 states that do collect sales tax would come up with 46 different and incompatible programs (or pick a winner, what those who are pro-tax are complaining about here, by choosing a single firm to create a universal program funded by govt.). It likely also means that every small business will need to be able to disburse 184 checks a year, on a quarterly basis, along with appropriate tax forms every quarter, to the state tax collection entities.

You can really tell who has experience in business and who just works for a check and doesn't even get it by their viewpoints in this thread.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:03   #219
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There is no taxation without representation.
You're quite the comedian.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:07   #220
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There are plenty of B&M businesses that operate in multiple locations. If the internet businesses can't compete they need to limit the scope of their business to what they can handle, not have special rules made for them.
Plenty operate in multiple locations, but no single location has to have staff to deal with thousands of different tax jurisdictions.

What about the special rules used to aid large businesses, like TIFs and low-interest loans?

Like I said before, it is no surprise you live in Kalifornia with your fuzzy thinking - equalize one of the few aspects small businesses have a competetive advantage on while leaving all the inequalities that large businesses enjoy intact and call it "fair."

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Old 05-09-2013, 13:09   #221
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:10   #222
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What shocks me is the number of so called small government libertarians who are just fine with the government picking winners and losers in the market place, provided they are on the winning side. Pure hypocrisy.
And when you choose to pick only a single aspect to make fair, you have only created more disadvantages for a large segment of businesses. Pure hypocrisy.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:12   #223
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Plenty operate in multiple locations, but no single location has to have staff to deal with thousands of different tax jurisdictions.
B&M businesses don't keep staff at each location to deal with sales tax issues, it's generally handled at a corporate office.

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What about the special rules used to aid large businesses, like TIFs and low-interest loans?
Where have I ever defended those things? Are you suggesting that because some unfair regulations exist it means more are just fine?

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Like I said before, it is no surprise you live in Kalifornia with your fuzzy thinking - equalize one of the few aspects small businesses have a competetive advantage on while leaving all the inequalities that large businesses enjoy intact and call it "fair."
You keep bringing up small businesses being hurt by this when in reality they are being crushed by internet competition who are given a significant advantage by being exempt from collecting sales tax.

Why not apply all regulations evenly across the board and let them compete in the market place?
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:14   #224
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And when you choose to pick only a single aspect to make fair, you have only created more disadvantages for a large segment of businesses. Pure hypocrisy.
Where have I chosen to pick a single government regulation to make fair? I've stated many times in this and other threads that all government regulation should be applied evenly.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:20   #225
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You're quite the comedian.
If you buy something online and pay local and State sales taxes for the area in which you live, there is no taxation without representation issue. Why is that so hard to grasp?
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