Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-09-2013, 10:01   #161
robhic
Platinum Membership
WOLVERINE!!!!
 
robhic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post
Well, I guess it's a good thing that I don't have to worry about shooting a 150# pig in the skull, while attending a dinner party with my .380 in my front pocket.
Hey, never say never! What if, at the dinner party, one gets obnoxious and drunk and rowdy and grabbin all over you?!

You might wanna shoot her!
__________________
-- Robert --
NRA Life Member

"Giving Money and Power to Government is Like Giving Whiskey and Car Keys to Teenage Boys" - PJ O'Rourke

Last edited by robhic; 05-09-2013 at 10:02..
robhic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 10:06   #162
Joshhtn
The eBay Guy
 
Joshhtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 8,074


Quote:
Originally Posted by robhic View Post
Hey, never say never! What if, at the dinner party, one gets obnoxious and drunk and rowdy and grabbin all over you?!

You might wanna shoot her!
__________________
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
***CHECK OUT MY EBAY STORE FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED-***

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Joshhtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 10:09   #163
robhic
Platinum Membership
WOLVERINE!!!!
 
robhic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,104
Quote:
Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Some people have pointed out that pinpoint accuracy is not possible in a fluid situation and I agree, but the same issues make me leery about having the time to compensate with volume. If I only have time for a couple of shots, I am going to go with "more power" rather than less.
As Fred said (above) that is a very good point! I never thought of it that way before. Makes a lot of sense. I generally carry a 9mm but may start moving more to carrying my G30sf in .45. Especially if my range performance yesterday is any indication of my 9mm accuracy skills!!!
__________________
-- Robert --
NRA Life Member

"Giving Money and Power to Government is Like Giving Whiskey and Car Keys to Teenage Boys" - PJ O'Rourke
robhic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 10:16   #164
Paul7
New Guy
 
Paul7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 13,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
Iwas present and watched as two .380 were bounced off the skull of a pig in a trap. I tried to explain that it was not a good idea with a .380. The shooter assured me he had confidence.

The shooter was using all the posts he had seen about the effectiveness of the .380 from the Internet.
I have never seen an internet post about the effectiveness of a .380 on pigs. I wouldn't hunt pigs with less than a .243, does that mean I need a .243 for self defense? I wouldn't want to shoot a pig with a 9mm either.

Quote:
Guess what....Do you have any idea of the thickness of a 150# pigs skull.

Let me enlighten you

Caliber Corner

In the video posted above the good guy scared the BGs off which is a little different.
Quote:
BGs do tend to run when shot at, without stopping to find out what caliber it is.

I understand why you would carry a .380 as back up. HERE is the question to answer........if you were going to a gun fight, would a .380 be your choice?
Of course not, if I knew I was going to a gunfight I'd bring my AR.

Quote:
BTW......don't even ever think of hunting 150# pig with a .380. I think a shot behind the ear might get to the brain with a .380, the .22 does a good job. The .22 does not have near the frontal area of the .355 (or what ever the .380 is)
Apples to oranges comparison.

For home defense, I use a big heavy bullet. For concealed carry, I use a lightweight gun I'm more likely to carry, with a spare mag. If 13 rounds of .380 won't help me, I've got big problems. I heard once the average self defense encounter is three shots, three feet, three seconds.
__________________
I dont believe that people should be able to own guns. Obama to John R. Lott Jr. in a private conversation at the University of Chicago.

Last edited by Paul7; 05-09-2013 at 10:20..
Paul7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 10:17   #165
1911ES
Senior Member
 
1911ES's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 460
I once thought I would never consider a .380 cartridge. But over the past few years, the technology advancements to the .380 have changed my thought process somewhat.

Some much, that I have a Colt Pocketlite currently on order.

With a quality brand firearm, and the proper ammunition, I believe, a go-anywhere, deep concealment .380 pistol is a plus.

Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner
1911ES is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 10:25   #166
Paul7
New Guy
 
Paul7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East of Eden
Posts: 13,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1911ES View Post
I once thought I would never consider a .380 cartridge. But over the past few years, the technology advancements to the .380 have changed my thought process somewhat.

Some much, that I have a Colt Pocketlite currently on order.

With a quality brand firearm, and the proper ammunition, I believe, a go-anywhere, deep concealment .380 pistol is a plus.

Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner
That is an awesome pistol, exactly what I carry. Reliable, accurate, and comfortable to shoot. If you like the 1911 platform, you'll love it. Do not confuse this with the old Colt Mustangs, which were not made nearly as well as the new one.

BTW, I tried the Ruger and Kel-Tec .380s, neither worked well. The new Mustang is like the high-end 1911 of the .380 world.
__________________
I dont believe that people should be able to own guns. Obama to John R. Lott Jr. in a private conversation at the University of Chicago.

Last edited by Paul7; 05-09-2013 at 10:28..
Paul7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 11:14   #167
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 22,126
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Why is the 9mm a better round? Why would a 9mm have less recoil?
Most 380 are blowback designs, more recoil. Most 380 are small, lt.wt. w/ small grip, more recoil. The 380 maxed out on a mouse size gun is a 100gr bullet about 900fps, right at the expansion vel window for most bullet designs.
Most any 9mm from a micro size gun will break 1000fps w/ a heavier bullet, better performance.
For the guys missing the point of a 380 not penetrating the skull of a pig, it means it has limited terminal potential, man or beast. I don't know many that would knowingly go into harms way w/ barely adequate equip, be it a gunfight, parachute jump, mountain climb or whatever. Knowingly choosing marginal vs adequate vs good equip just seems to go against the point of carrying a gun in the first place, to survive a violent attack.
WHile we all know a long gun is better, it's not appropriate or even legal to tote around most places. So we choose handguns. Since all handguns are less than ideal, why further the problem choosing less than adequate? Most carrying such guns can't shoot them well past contact distance. Try running your fav mousegun @ the next IDPA match, get back to me. If you can't do it there, you certainly won't do it on the street.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 05-09-2013 at 11:21..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 11:49   #168
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.B.Cooper View Post
9mm=9x19
9mm Makarov=9x18
.380=9x17

Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
True. It's amazing how hung up people get over minuscule differences.
Approximate muzzle energy comparison:

9x19=450+ ft-lb
9x18=232 ft-lb
9x17=203 ft-lb

Even the Buffalo Bore .380 "+P" is less than 300 ft-lbs.

Minuscule differences...
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 05-09-2013 at 11:51..
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 11:52   #169
Illini_Glock
USAF Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Arizona
Posts: 229
I've got a Bersa .380 that is pretty golden.
Illini_Glock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 11:52   #170
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul7 View Post
I have never seen an internet post about the effectiveness of a .380 on pigs. I wouldn't hunt pigs with less than a .243, does that mean I need a .243 for self defense? I wouldn't want to shoot a pig with a 9mm either.



.
well now we are getting somewhere. the 243 has 2000 ftlb of muzzle energy is ok to use on a 150# pig but all you need is 238 ftlb from a .380 for self defense on 150# bad guy?

I don't get it?
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u

Last edited by rustytxrx; 05-09-2013 at 11:54..
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 11:59   #171
Joshhtn
The eBay Guy
 
Joshhtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 8,074


Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
well now we are getting somewhere. the 243 has 2000 ftlb of muzzle energy is ok to use on a 150# pig but all you need is 238 ftlb from a .380 for self defense on 150# bad guy?

I don't get it?
Yes. Check out your picture from above. The last I checked, a bad guy doesn't have a skull that thick.
__________________
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
***CHECK OUT MY EBAY STORE FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED-***

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Joshhtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:10   #172
Joshhtn
The eBay Guy
 
Joshhtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 8,074



As long as we're talking about hogs

It didn't bounce off?
__________________
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
***CHECK OUT MY EBAY STORE FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED-***

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



Last edited by Joshhtn; 05-09-2013 at 12:12..
Joshhtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:24   #173
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post
Hog's Head Ballistics - Speer Gold Dot 90gr .380 ACP - YouTube

As long as we're talking about hogs

It didn't bounce off?
So this means you feel adequate armed with a .380?
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:29   #174
Joshhtn
The eBay Guy
 
Joshhtn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 8,074


Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
So this means you feel adequate armed with a .380?
Yes. It beats the hell out of my pocket knife.
__________________
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
***CHECK OUT MY EBAY STORE FOR EVERYTHING YOU NEED-***

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.


Joshhtn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:36   #175
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 22,126
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
True. It's amazing how hung up people get over minuscule differences.
So along the same thought lines:
22mag & 223, same thing right, close enough right?
Or how about 30 carbine, 30-30 & 30-06, same same right?
It's obviously a carry what you want, but really, the 380 is marginal at best, really, not adequate but marginal. I try to avoid marginal in any piece of equip, but one used to protect my life or the life of my family, marginal just doesn't seem appropriate.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 05-09-2013 at 12:39..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:39   #176
Roger1079
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: South FL
Posts: 2,250
Wow I'm glad I found this thread. I think I'm going to pitch my useless Ruger LCP in the trash now and start carrying my S&W 500. After all, I wouldn't want to trust my life to a glorified BB gun that leaves nothing more than welts on an assailant.
Roger1079 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:51   #177
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post
Yes. It beats the hell out of my pocket knife.
I think that is the point then. everything else is just discussion.
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:55   #178
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 10,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by rustytxrx View Post
So this means you feel adequate armed with a .380?
This is a similar comment/question made by a close friend of mine while we were recently teaching at a range session. He's former military (doctor), still teaches for DoD/DHS, firearms instructor, etc. Longtime 1911 shooter. Taught at a prestigious private firearms training academy. Knows his stuff.

Anyway, for those times when he can't carry one of his excellent 1911's, he picked up a Bodyguard .380 and a 442. He mentioned that he felt a bit under-gunned when carrying his Bodyguard .380, and asked me how I felt when carrying my LCP upon occasion.

I told him that I felt under-gunned carrying only a handgun, regardless of size, caliber, etc.

The venerable .380 is a small caliber, personal defense pistol for which I personally see a narrow - but practical - role for some of my retirement CCW needs. It's all about situational context.

As far as accuracy and degradation of skillset under unexpected stress? Yep. It can happen. Proper training, done with sufficient frequency, has been found to help "inoculate" some folks against the adverse effects of stress during critical incidents. Better than relying on luck, I'd think. Or some supposed "superiority" of caliber, bullet design, etc.

I've listened to at least my fair share of cops who have been involved in shootings. Folks who have experienced and realized the value - and necessity - of being able to make aimed shots "under fire".

Yes, I have a passing familiarity with the historic HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS , having been given a copy of it as a firearms instructor when it was a new publication. I understand the theoretical potential advantages of even small advantages of expanded diameters, and penetration depths.

This subject is all about making reasonable and prudent risk assessment when selecting equipment (handguns & calibers). There's always going to be a wide range of how different folks define the terms reasonable and prudent in this context. Understandable.

The thing that can sometimes cause me some concern is how any particular person may seem to feel they may successfully offset the importance of training, practice & skillset by choosing a more powerful, and/or larger, handgun caliber.

Ever watch how some folks on a range will require "warm up" time and some practice time before they're "ready" for achieving their best accuracy? That concerns me.

Over the years I've worked as a firearms instructor I've come to look at an indicator of my current skillset as being what happens when I fired my first half dozen rounds "cold", for both known/expected and unknown (new) drills and courses-of-fire.

It's also that very first round of those first several rounds which interests me the most.

No warm ups. No alibi's. No "practice". No excuses that it's "new" ammunition, bullet weights, etc. It doesn't matter whether it's one of my guns, or one belonging to the agency or someone else.

The draw/presentation has to be GOOD the first time, and the initial shots have to be fast & accurate as intended (needed), for me to be satisfied with the currency of my basic skills.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 05-09-2013 at 12:57..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:57   #179
rustytxrx
Senior Member
 
rustytxrx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
Wow I'm glad I found this thread. I think I'm going to pitch my useless Ruger LCP in the trash now and start carrying my S&W 500. After all, I wouldn't want to trust my life to a glorified BB gun that leaves nothing more than welts on an assailant.
I think that 2700+ ftlb might be adequate carry round.
__________________
Rusty
Texas, I luv u
rustytxrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 13:07   #180
English
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: London
Posts: 5,765
I have read only a small proportion of the posts in this thread but think it is worth adding another.

For any individual and pistol size weight and configuration, there is a limit to how much recoil he or she can handle. The consequence of that is that as we consider smaller and lighter pistols the momentum of the bullet must be less and less.

No one going into a fire fight would choose a small light pistol but many, for a variety of reasons, are not always able to carry a "proper" pistol firing an adequate, good or excellent defensive cartridge, and have to settle for something less than adequate either as an intelligent compromise or because of ignorance or laziness.

I think that it is fair to say that the .380ACP, along with the Makarov 9mm and the .32ACP can be group below the adequate 9mm Luger, otherwise known as the 9x19mm or just 9mm. The .25ACP and .22LR are further still below them, but the important thing is that almost any handgun, even a .22LR, is better than no handgun at all. The majority of conflicts where the threat of violence is involved are resolved by no more than the appearance of a handgun in the hand of the innocent party. Most bad guys do not want to be shot with anything and are in the bad guy business only because it is usually an easy way of getting money. For ordinary amounts of money, it is not worth the real extra risk of getting shot by someone who has a gun in his or her hand.

So what remains to discuss is how much you loose with a mouse gun in terms of accuracy and terminal ballistics. Amongst other things, I have a KelTec P32 and it has improved sights which cost about half as much as the pistol. I am by no means a good shot - my hands are not steady enough and I get very little practice - but I can put the very great majority of shots in a life size head and shoulders target at 55 yards and I can do quite well on an advancing man target in poor light conditions. At 11 yards it produces head shots without much difficulty. In short, the pistol is accurate enough for most things that it might be asked to do. It has also been completely reliable in the shooting I have done with it. The 3AT is a little harder to shoot but mine does not have the improved sights so it is hard to compare.

Terminal ballistics are less easy to define but if we consider that most of the times a civilian might need to use a pistol in self defense is likely to be at close quarters where he or she needs to stop the fight quickly. .380s make holes but they don't damage a large amount of tissue. That means that someone shot with a .380 will take longer to become incapacitated and will be less hindered by his wound than with 9mm and upwards. It tips the fight less to the good guy's advantage than 9mm and up. That means that you need to be aiming for head shots. At close range that isn't all that difficult with a static target or even an advancing target but with a real man it is more difficult because the head bounces around as the BG rushes you.

The simple fact is that with a determined adversary at close range you need to think of head shots anyway because shots to the chest just don't work fast enough to stop you being cut up or shot up very badly. The right .44Magnum, 10mm or 357SIG will do a good job with chest shots but they are still likely to leave the BG enough time to do you a lot of damage.

So how do they compare for head shots? To be reliable with a 9mm, you need to hit the ocular cavity. That is the roughly 3 inch by 2 inch rectangle beneath the brow ridge. A.380 will work just as well in that 6 square inches, but how easy is that? Not easy! What happens with a hit outside that zone? Roughly speaking, the more kinetic energy the bullet has the more likely it is still to produce an immediate cessation of activity because it is more able to penetrate heavy bone and do enough damage after doing so. An ordinary 9mm will penetrate most foreheads, but if it is much less than square on it can slide off to the side. This is much more likely with a .380 and less likely with a 357SIG or 10mm. It is more likely still with a .32ACP and worse again with a .25ACP or .22 which in some cases, will lodge in the skull without penetrating it. Below that 3x2 zone you will produce a nasty wound with a good chance of stopping the fight but it is a matter of more chance. At a guess, and it is all guess and estimate, in a head shot a .380 would be half as good as a 9mm, a quarter as good as a 357SIG, and a fifth as good as a 10mm. But it is still a lot better than no gun at all.

English
English is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 22:12.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,225
341 Members
884 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31