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Old 05-09-2013, 17:08   #201
fg17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtull7 View Post
My EDC is a Wilson Combat Professional .45. Is that manly enough for you .380 haters?

Every now and then I carry my Walther German PPK/S with Hydro-Shoks in it. I do not feel undergunned. Shot placement is all.

I also carry sometimes my S&W Model 60. I still do not feel undergunned. If you cannot take care of the situation with five rounds, you are going to lose anyway.

I also think that the posters in this thread that call the .380 a sissy gun and a girly gun most likely have manhood problems. There is no call for that kind of hate. It's just one of many calibers.

And, lastly, I just love the posters who talk of getting in a gunfight. If one is not a cop, the chances of getting a gunfight are so slim as to be laughable.
Exactly, Same thing I have been saying for years. Check out the web site "no nonsense self defense" Click the link on knife fighting and then Fantasy. As a martial artist I don't agree with every thing Marc Macyoung says but he makes some good points.http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/

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Old 05-09-2013, 17:17   #202
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
I see it opposite. A LEO wears a uniform,
And that makes him a target. He does not have have the option of being inconspicuous. He does not have the option of running away or hiding. He has to deal with a shooter. I don't. I just have to survive until the police get there.
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:24   #203
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I get a chuckle out of people who think that just because they can do a Mozambique drill at 3 yds. in broad daylight on a stationary piece of paper with what is basically a "muff" gun that they have somehow "arrived" and are a real operator to be reckoned with.

There is enough stupid in this thread to fill an Obama White House Cabinet position. It's a fact that some people may find out the hard way that they are undergunned. Unfortunately, most won't be able to come back & share.

There comes a point in some mens' lives that they simply cannot be "dewussified" no matter what measures are undertaken.
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:33   #204
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:41   #205
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
In the right hands, ANY caliber can be lethal.
Nobody cares if it's lethal.

Seriously.

That isn't the point of a defensive arm.

At all.
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:42   #206
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
And that makes him a target. He does not have have the option of being inconspicuous. He does not have the option of running away or hiding. He has to deal with a shooter. I don't. I just have to survive until the police get there.
Deterrence.

It's a pretty big thing.
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:42   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
I get a chuckle out of people who think that just because they can do a Mozambique drill at 3 yds. in broad daylight on a stationary piece of paper with what is basically a "muff" gun that they have somehow "arrived" and are a real operator to be reckoned with.

There is enough stupid in this thread to fill an Obama White House Cabinet position. It's a fact that some people may find out the hard way that they are undergunned. Unfortunately, most won't be able to come back & share.

There comes a point in some mens' lives that they simply cannot be "dewussified" no matter what measures are undertaken.
Go ahead and add your post to the "stupid" in this thread.
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:44   #208
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Nobody cares if it's lethal.

Seriously.

That isn't the point of a defensive arm.

At all.
I respect your posts thus far, but I must say, you're contradicting yourself. If lethality is not the point, then why not a .380?
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:49   #209
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I respect your posts thus far, but I must say, you're contradicting yourself. If lethality is not the point, then why not a .380?
Because .380 is marginal, at best, in the department of stopping an attacker/ending the threat.

It is not contradictory at all.

Self defense, or defense of others, isn't about killing. At all.

It is about stopping the attacker(s). It is about ending the threat.

Two different things.

PS: Statistics show that, big picture, 80% of people shot by handguns survive.
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Old 05-09-2013, 17:57   #210
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Because .380 is marginal, at best, in the department of stopping an attacker/ending the threat.

It is not contradictory at all.

Self defense, or defense of others, isn't about killing. At all.

It is about stopping the attacker(s). It is about ending the threat.

Two different things.

PS: Statistics show that, big picture, 80% of people shot by handguns survive.
I respect your opinion.
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Old 05-09-2013, 18:02   #211
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I respect your opinion.
In that case...because the terminal ballistics of .380 are significantly less than the "service cartridges", that being with .38spl +P and 9mm Luger.
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Old 05-09-2013, 18:04   #212
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
In that case...because the terminal ballistics of .380 are significantly less than the "service cartridges", that being with .38spl +P and 9mm Luger.
Terminal ballistics mean nothing in real life... Again, I respect your opinion.
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Old 05-09-2013, 18:12   #213
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Up close I doubt I am going to even take a split second to farge around with a laser. Up close firing groups, on a moving target, is a moot point.

Using a .380 "up close" is sort of like using a .38 for bear protection. It may well kill the attacker......eventually...but neither one gives me a great deal of confidence that I will be around to see that result, which is pretty much my goal in the first place.
380 is just as good as a 9mm show me at 25 35 feet any difference. putting a lazer between the eyes better guess again.
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Old 05-09-2013, 18:20   #214
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Terminal ballistics mean nothing in real life...
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Old 05-09-2013, 18:31   #215
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Ok let me rephrase that... Terminal ballistics mean nothing in a real life situation.
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Old 05-09-2013, 18:31   #216
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380 is just as good as a 9mm show me at 25 35 feet any difference. putting a lazer between the eyes better guess again.
If I get the gist of your post you are saying that the ballistics of the .380 and the 9mm are the same at 25-35 feet and that you think you can zap someone with a headshot because you have a laser on the pistol, and further you think a headshot is the best choice

All really that simple in your mind, isn't it?
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Old 05-09-2013, 18:35   #217
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Ok let me rephrase that... Terminal ballistics mean nothing in a real life situation.
That must be why everybody carries .22lr. It's definitely the easiest to shoot, highest capacity for a given size, fastest shooting, and every bit as effective as a service cartridge.

And why all long guns are chambered in .22lr, and not a centerfire round or a shotgun round.

Or not.
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Old 05-09-2013, 20:07   #218
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Realistically , you can argue calibers/ballistics all month long- but when it comes right down to it- its all about "situational awareness" and shooting your carry weapon like second nature- meaning in a stressful situation you pull that shirt and draw that weapon to the ready- and put rounds where they count. I would hope that most prior military here would know exactly what I'm talking about. Practice, practice, practice -drawing that weapon in street clothes, under your jacket ect... Own it like.... gee- your life depended on it. "Well gee I carry a 357 and it can shoot through a car engine and I have 15 rounds in my mag"- well those rounds can go through houses or buildings if you miss- and I hope you have a damn good excuse in front of a judge and jury why those rounds went somewhere they should'nt have. God forbid I ever have to draw on someone, but I will draw and own each round, I'm not Clint in a Spaghetti Western, but I have practiced enough over the years and will not just fire randomly and hope my rounds make it on target whether I carry my pocket 380 or my G27 or any of my pistolas- Im gonna shoot em like a boss. That's a nice shiny 1911 you just bought from Gander Mountain- Oh you you just got your concealed carry too? Have you practiced till its second nature to draw and fire that weapon safely and can hit center mass almost with your eyes closed, drop and replace a mag like second nature on the move? Well If you haven't- PLEASE leave your new toy at home locked away- for the safety of the rest of us! Don't be an Internet Commando- practice safely till its second nature, and put those rounds on target and make em count- no matter what you may carry.
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Old 05-09-2013, 20:21   #219
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yep a 380 is better than nada. My smallest CC pistol is a SIG P-230 all stainless. My smallest CC revolver is a S&W 632 327 Federal. Which would ya all carry if ya needed a small handgun? I also have a S&W 6906, but it seems like a way bigger handgun than the ones I mentioned...kinda clunkly...like most Rugers. I also have a old Colt LW commander in 38 super which I think is the best in power, small size and light weight. fits my hand right and points right.
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Old 05-09-2013, 22:22   #220
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Hi Guys!

What's going on in this thread?

Oh.
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Old 05-09-2013, 22:39   #221
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I respect your posts thus far, but I must say, you're contradicting yourself. If lethality is not the point, then why not a .380?
The point of the defensive weapon is to stop the threat. Lethality doesn't matter. A 22lr is very lethal, especially if the BG doesn't get immediate medical. Unfortunately, COM hits w/ small calibers may end up with the defender dead, beaten to death with his now empty mousegun. If I have to shoot, it is to stop the threat. Whether the attacker lives or dies is immaterial.

Your best bet for stopping a determined attack is have good tactics, use enough gun, have enough ammo & shoot better than your attacker. Throw in a bit of luck, that is pretty much going to determine the outcome of the fight. Since we have a 0 chance of being able to determine the type of attack, planning for the best case scenario is kinda stupid. If you really feel the need to be armed, can legally CCW, then not carrying a suitable fighting handgun seems to be setting yourself up for failure.

That is how I see it, many of course see it diff. Just make an honest assesment of your ability. If you are a marginal shooter, you will really suck when th SHTF. If you are a terrific shooter, you may actually be able to win the fight w/ a good mindset & better than adequate equip.
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Old 05-09-2013, 22:46   #222
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380 is just as good as a 9mm show me at 25 35 feet any difference. putting a lazer between the eyes better guess again.
Oh I am sure your attacker is going to stand still while you place your cute little laser on his forehead. Some of you watch too many movies.
As Delmonte notes, unless you have rung out your rig in some serious training & practice, you have no fricking idea what yo ucan or can not do under some stress. Flat range practice just isn't cutting it. Strap it up, head to the local IDPA or USPSA match & see just how lacking you really are. Then contemplate the mousegun again.
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Old 05-10-2013, 00:31   #223
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Hi Guys!

What's going on in this thread?

Oh.
A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing.
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Old 05-10-2013, 00:42   #224
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According to Fackler, the only reliable way to stop an attack with a handgun is to punch holes in the attacker and wait for him to bleed out. Therefore, according to Fackler, the most important thing a handgun round needs is the ability to completely penetrate the human body from any angle. A FMJ 380 will do that. The size of the wound channel is secondary. A hole with a .454 diameter will not let out much more blood than one that is .354. As has been pointed out, in a gunfight for your life you will not be able to hit your target with pinpoint accuracy so you shoot for COM and hope for the best.
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:47   #225
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According to Fackler, the only reliable way to stop an attack with a handgun is to punch holes in the attacker and wait for him to bleed out. Therefore, according to Fackler, the most important thing a handgun round needs is the ability to completely penetrate the human body from any angle. A FMJ 380 will do that. The size of the wound channel is secondary. A hole with a .454 diameter will not let out much more blood than one that is .354. As has been pointed out, in a gunfight for your life you will not be able to hit your target with pinpoint accuracy so you shoot for COM and hope for the best.
The very simple alternative conclusion is that Fackler was wrong. The evidence for that is that hits from a 9mm, 38 super or 357SIG (all 9mm caliber) do actually stop someone shooting at you with fewer hits than from a .380 (also 9mm caliber).

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