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Old 05-09-2013, 12:39   #176
Roger1079
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Wow I'm glad I found this thread. I think I'm going to pitch my useless Ruger LCP in the trash now and start carrying my S&W 500. After all, I wouldn't want to trust my life to a glorified BB gun that leaves nothing more than welts on an assailant.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:51   #177
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Yes. It beats the hell out of my pocket knife.
I think that is the point then. everything else is just discussion.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:55   #178
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So this means you feel adequate armed with a .380?
This is a similar comment/question made by a close friend of mine while we were recently teaching at a range session. He's former military (doctor), still teaches for DoD/DHS, firearms instructor, etc. Longtime 1911 shooter. Taught at a prestigious private firearms training academy. Knows his stuff.

Anyway, for those times when he can't carry one of his excellent 1911's, he picked up a Bodyguard .380 and a 442. He mentioned that he felt a bit under-gunned when carrying his Bodyguard .380, and asked me how I felt when carrying my LCP upon occasion.

I told him that I felt under-gunned carrying only a handgun, regardless of size, caliber, etc.

The venerable .380 is a small caliber, personal defense pistol for which I personally see a narrow - but practical - role for some of my retirement CCW needs. It's all about situational context.

As far as accuracy and degradation of skillset under unexpected stress? Yep. It can happen. Proper training, done with sufficient frequency, has been found to help "inoculate" some folks against the adverse effects of stress during critical incidents. Better than relying on luck, I'd think. Or some supposed "superiority" of caliber, bullet design, etc.

I've listened to at least my fair share of cops who have been involved in shootings. Folks who have experienced and realized the value - and necessity - of being able to make aimed shots "under fire".

Yes, I have a passing familiarity with the historic HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS , having been given a copy of it as a firearms instructor when it was a new publication. I understand the theoretical potential advantages of even small advantages of expanded diameters, and penetration depths.

This subject is all about making reasonable and prudent risk assessment when selecting equipment (handguns & calibers). There's always going to be a wide range of how different folks define the terms reasonable and prudent in this context. Understandable.

The thing that can sometimes cause me some concern is how any particular person may seem to feel they may successfully offset the importance of training, practice & skillset by choosing a more powerful, and/or larger, handgun caliber.

Ever watch how some folks on a range will require "warm up" time and some practice time before they're "ready" for achieving their best accuracy? That concerns me.

Over the years I've worked as a firearms instructor I've come to look at an indicator of my current skillset as being what happens when I fired my first half dozen rounds "cold", for both known/expected and unknown (new) drills and courses-of-fire.

It's also that very first round of those first several rounds which interests me the most.

No warm ups. No alibi's. No "practice". No excuses that it's "new" ammunition, bullet weights, etc. It doesn't matter whether it's one of my guns, or one belonging to the agency or someone else.

The draw/presentation has to be GOOD the first time, and the initial shots have to be fast & accurate as intended (needed), for me to be satisfied with the currency of my basic skills.
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Old 05-09-2013, 12:57   #179
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Wow I'm glad I found this thread. I think I'm going to pitch my useless Ruger LCP in the trash now and start carrying my S&W 500. After all, I wouldn't want to trust my life to a glorified BB gun that leaves nothing more than welts on an assailant.
I think that 2700+ ftlb might be adequate carry round.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:07   #180
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I have read only a small proportion of the posts in this thread but think it is worth adding another.

For any individual and pistol size weight and configuration, there is a limit to how much recoil he or she can handle. The consequence of that is that as we consider smaller and lighter pistols the momentum of the bullet must be less and less.

No one going into a fire fight would choose a small light pistol but many, for a variety of reasons, are not always able to carry a "proper" pistol firing an adequate, good or excellent defensive cartridge, and have to settle for something less than adequate either as an intelligent compromise or because of ignorance or laziness.

I think that it is fair to say that the .380ACP, along with the Makarov 9mm and the .32ACP can be group below the adequate 9mm Luger, otherwise known as the 9x19mm or just 9mm. The .25ACP and .22LR are further still below them, but the important thing is that almost any handgun, even a .22LR, is better than no handgun at all. The majority of conflicts where the threat of violence is involved are resolved by no more than the appearance of a handgun in the hand of the innocent party. Most bad guys do not want to be shot with anything and are in the bad guy business only because it is usually an easy way of getting money. For ordinary amounts of money, it is not worth the real extra risk of getting shot by someone who has a gun in his or her hand.

So what remains to discuss is how much you loose with a mouse gun in terms of accuracy and terminal ballistics. Amongst other things, I have a KelTec P32 and it has improved sights which cost about half as much as the pistol. I am by no means a good shot - my hands are not steady enough and I get very little practice - but I can put the very great majority of shots in a life size head and shoulders target at 55 yards and I can do quite well on an advancing man target in poor light conditions. At 11 yards it produces head shots without much difficulty. In short, the pistol is accurate enough for most things that it might be asked to do. It has also been completely reliable in the shooting I have done with it. The 3AT is a little harder to shoot but mine does not have the improved sights so it is hard to compare.

Terminal ballistics are less easy to define but if we consider that most of the times a civilian might need to use a pistol in self defense is likely to be at close quarters where he or she needs to stop the fight quickly. .380s make holes but they don't damage a large amount of tissue. That means that someone shot with a .380 will take longer to become incapacitated and will be less hindered by his wound than with 9mm and upwards. It tips the fight less to the good guy's advantage than 9mm and up. That means that you need to be aiming for head shots. At close range that isn't all that difficult with a static target or even an advancing target but with a real man it is more difficult because the head bounces around as the BG rushes you.

The simple fact is that with a determined adversary at close range you need to think of head shots anyway because shots to the chest just don't work fast enough to stop you being cut up or shot up very badly. The right .44Magnum, 10mm or 357SIG will do a good job with chest shots but they are still likely to leave the BG enough time to do you a lot of damage.

So how do they compare for head shots? To be reliable with a 9mm, you need to hit the ocular cavity. That is the roughly 3 inch by 2 inch rectangle beneath the brow ridge. A.380 will work just as well in that 6 square inches, but how easy is that? Not easy! What happens with a hit outside that zone? Roughly speaking, the more kinetic energy the bullet has the more likely it is still to produce an immediate cessation of activity because it is more able to penetrate heavy bone and do enough damage after doing so. An ordinary 9mm will penetrate most foreheads, but if it is much less than square on it can slide off to the side. This is much more likely with a .380 and less likely with a 357SIG or 10mm. It is more likely still with a .32ACP and worse again with a .25ACP or .22 which in some cases, will lodge in the skull without penetrating it. Below that 3x2 zone you will produce a nasty wound with a good chance of stopping the fight but it is a matter of more chance. At a guess, and it is all guess and estimate, in a head shot a .380 would be half as good as a 9mm, a quarter as good as a 357SIG, and a fifth as good as a 10mm. But it is still a lot better than no gun at all.

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Old 05-09-2013, 13:08   #181
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I think that 2700+ ftlb might be adequate carry round.
And if not, as long as I am within 5 feet, the muzzle flash will cause second degree burns and blindless. Worst case scenario, it can also second as a pretty useful club if I can't stop my threat in the measly 5 rounds it holds. Can't beat that any way you look at it.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:33   #182
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And if not, as long as I am within 5 feet, the muzzle flash will cause second degree burns and blindless. Worst case scenario, it can also second as a pretty useful club if I can't stop my threat in the measly 5 rounds it holds. Can't beat that any way you look at it.
I have a S&W 329 PD that I shoot BB Heavy 44 special 255 gr Keith style rounds at 1000 fps. I don't use it for carry much. I shoot it double action (had S&W work the double action over).

I have not shoot any full bore 44 mag out of it. I think it might not be a lot of fun. I have shoot a 2" 500 s&w. one time was plenty
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:56   #183
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I have a S&W 329 PD that I shoot BB Heavy 44 special 255 gr Keith style rounds at 1000 fps. I don't use it for carry much. I shoot it double action (had S&W work the double action over).

I have not shoot any full bore 44 mag out of it. I think it might not be a lot of fun. I have shoot a 2" 500 s&w. one time was plenty
The one I have is the 4" ported barrel version. After 10 rounds or so my hand is numb. It is 5 years old and has maybe 100 rounds through it. I picked it up at a bargain from a buddy that shot it twice and wanted nothing to do with it after that. I normally now only take it out at the range if I have someone irritating in a lane next to me. Normally after the first trigger pull they ask to be moved.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:56   #184
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I own an LCP for the very few times when I cannot get away with anything else. I pocket carry it in suit pants when I wear a 3 piece. I tend to take the jacket off after a while and that would negate carrying most anything else. The 642 prints in the pocket of those suit pants.

On those days I can have an LCP in the pocket and a mag in the other pocket. This gives me 13 round load out and I can empty the thing into the a zone out of the pocket in a real hurry.

I carry hornady Critical Defense and honestly it shows favorably in gel tests.
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Old 05-09-2013, 13:56   #185
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I have a rather simple yardstick for a general EDC caliber. I have hunted with a handgun off and on since the first year it was legal in my State. Simply put If I wouldn't trust a round to kill a deer with one shot. in the heart area, at 50 yards why would I trust it to stop an armed attacker before he stopped me?

And no, I do not mean a .44 magnum. I have used the .357 for instance and under good circumstances, and serious need, would trust even the 9mm or a .38 special with a good bullet at 50 yards (our deer are not big, hence they make a good yardstick)

No I wouldn't use anything less than a 9mm/.38



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Old 05-09-2013, 13:59   #186
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well now we are getting somewhere. the 243 has 2000 ftlb of muzzle energy is ok to use on a 150# pig but all you need is 238 ftlb from a .380 for self defense on 150# bad guy?

I don't get it?
A wild pig and a man are two different things. I was on a hog hunt last fall and saw a really big pig that took two rounds to the head with a .308 and still lived. Know any men no matter how big that can do that?
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Old 05-09-2013, 14:26   #187
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I think that 2700+ ftlb might be adequate carry round.
That sounds like a big centerfire cartridge/firearm.
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Old 05-09-2013, 14:39   #188
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So along the same thought lines:
22mag & 223, same thing right, close enough right?
Or how about 30 carbine, 30-30 & 30-06, same same right?
It's obviously a carry what you want, but really, the 380 is marginal at best, really, not adequate but marginal. I try to avoid marginal in any piece of equip, but one used to protect my life or the life of my family, marginal just doesn't seem appropriate.
I remember when people like you were saying that adopting the 5.56 was a disaster. Then they said the same thing when we went form the 45 ACP to the 9mm Luger. Those people were wrong on both counts because people aren't that hard to kill. Their skin and skulls are somewhat thinner than a hog's.

Civilians normally don't need the kind of firepower law enforcement does because law enforcement walks the line between defensive shooting and offensive shooting. Civilians seldom need to shoot through barricades or car doors. They seldom need to shoot great distances.

A .380 may not penetrate shoulder to shoulder, and it would not be choice for long range hand gunning. However, it should work fine in most confrontations at at distances that could be considered self defense. It wouldn't be adequate taking on an SKS across a shopping mall, but then most handguns wouldn't be either.
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Old 05-09-2013, 14:51   #189
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I remember when people like you were saying that adopting the 5.56 was a disaster. Then they said the same thing when we went form the 45 ACP to the 9mm Luger. Those people were wrong on both counts because people aren't that hard to kill. Their skin and skulls are somewhat thinner than a hog's.

Civilians normally don't need the kind of firepower law enforcement does because law enforcement walks the line between defensive shooting and offensive shooting. Civilians seldom need to shoot through barricades or car doors. They seldom need to shoot great distances.

A .380 may not penetrate shoulder to shoulder, and it would not be choice for long range hand gunning. However, it should work fine in most confrontations at at distances that could be considered self defense. It wouldn't be adequate taking on an SKS across a shopping mall, but then most handguns wouldn't be either.
It isn't about killing.

The majority of ammo available in 5.56 is not used in combat by the military due to lack of consistent effectiveness. And, oh, it's still a RIFLE round out of a rifle. Rifles are rifles. Pistols are pistols.

Skull thickness? Most of us aren't elite operators who count on getting headshots when our lives are on the line.

Just some things to consider.
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Old 05-09-2013, 14:57   #190
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It isn't about killing.

The majority of ammo available in 5.56 is not used in combat by the military due to lack of consistent effectiveness. And, oh, it's still a RIFLE round out of a rifle. Rifles are rifles. Pistols are pistols.

Skull thickness? Most of us aren't elite operators who count on getting headshots when our lives are on the line.

Just some things to consider.
I'll aim for the head for my third shot.
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Old 05-09-2013, 15:06   #191
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Civilians normally don't need the kind of firepower law enforcement does because law enforcement walks the line between defensive shooting and offensive shooting. Civilians seldom need to shoot through barricades or car doors. They seldom need to shoot great distances.
.
I see it opposite. A LEO wears a uniform, has access to a long gun, has a duty size gun, BUG, lots of spare ammo, vest, radio, backup, pretty good shape if they get in over their head. Now CCW, exactly the opp. No vest, no likely BUG, less spare ammo, no radio or backup. If you are a CCW & need a handgun you probably need it worse than the LEO at that exact moment. Ending the fight as soon as possible may be the only way you survive. A single LEO may be able to hold out for his 3-4min backup, the CCW will be dead as soon as he runs out of his pocket gun ammo.
Again, free country, but there are so few reasons to carry a 380 in todays market of micro 9mm & not much bigger 40s & 357sigs. Even in a suit, proper tuckable IWB holster, something like a P239 is easily hidden w/ just a tucked shirt, spare mag in a pocket holster. You are more likely to shoot such a rig better than a mousegun. Again, try it out at your local IDPA & you'll quickly learn the deficiencies of your choice. Use an IWB holster & load form your pocket, let me know how you do.
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Old 05-09-2013, 15:19   #192
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I see it opposite. A LEO wears a uniform, has access to a long gun, has a duty size gun, BUG, lots of spare ammo, vest, radio, backup, pretty good shape if they get in over their head. Now CCW, exactly the opp. No vest, no likely BUG, less spare ammo, no radio or backup. If you are a CCW & need a handgun you probably need it worse than the LEO at that exact moment. Ending the fight as soon as possible may be the only way you survive. A single LEO may be able to hold out for his 3-4min backup, the CCW will be dead as soon as he runs out of his pocket gun ammo.
Again, free country, but there are so few reasons to carry a 380 in todays market of micro 9mm & not much bigger 40s & 357sigs. Even in a suit, proper tuckable IWB holster, something like a P239 is easily hidden w/ just a tucked shirt, spare mag in a pocket holster. You are more likely to shoot such a rig better than a mousegun. Again, try it out at your local IDPA & you'll quickly learn the deficiencies of your choice. Use an IWB holster & load form your pocket, let me know how you do.
I agree.

I never understand it when the gun grabbers say that we don't 'need' standard capacity magazines, spare magazines, more than one gun, etc etc, but the police do. Wait, what? Often the police are involved because the criminals victimized private citizens, and the police will have all those things you listed...how does the private citizen with none of those things, and a much more complex and difficult method of calling for help, need so much less?

It makes no sense
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Old 05-09-2013, 15:46   #193
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I bought a P3AT for carry when (and if) I couldn't carry anything bigger., and also for possible back-up duty. It's a neat little pistol, especially with an Arma Laser. But as far as stopping power goes... I'm not comfortable with anything less than a 9mm.

At this point I still haven't carried the .380 and don't know if I ever will, but it's there just in case.
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Old 05-09-2013, 16:04   #194
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I remember when people like you were saying that adopting the 5.56 was a disaster. Then they said the same thing when we went form the 45 ACP to the 9mm Luger. Those people were wrong on both counts because people aren't that hard to kill. Their skin and skulls are somewhat thinner than a hog's.

Civilians normally don't need the kind of firepower law enforcement does because law enforcement walks the line between defensive shooting and offensive shooting. Civilians seldom need to shoot through barricades or car doors. They seldom need to shoot great distances.

A .380 may not penetrate shoulder to shoulder, and it would not be choice for long range hand gunning. However, it should work fine in most confrontations at at distances that could be considered self defense. It wouldn't be adequate taking on an SKS across a shopping mall, but then most handguns wouldn't be either.
So much wrong and only so much bandwidth.

The 5.56 vs 7.62 debate has absolutely no bearing on this topic.

"People like you" is a derogatory broad brush.

"Killing" isn't the purpose of a self defense handgun. You are comparing a fight to slaughtering/executing and animal. different circumstances and purpose.

It is not terribly intelligent to take the tact of telling people that they don't NEED some type of firearm, no, not bright at all.

If they want it and they know they don't have any backup and that concerns them they have a right to carry what meets their concerns.

"Seldom need" is not a basis for not having a capability.

"should be" ???? You are kidding me. Use the minimum is not really a viable strategy and you will be in real trouble if your opponent doesn't agree with your conclusion.



A post heavily burdened by the weight of its own fail.
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Old 05-09-2013, 16:12   #195
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In the right hands even a .22 can be a very effective weapon. http://www.tactical-life.com/tactica...mossad-22-lrs/

My first handgun instructor was an Israeli who carried a Beretta 70. He would have taken first place at many of the IDPA matches I have shot.

I carry a G19 or 26 most of the time. I wonder if my old instructor would be disappointed?
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Old 05-09-2013, 16:22   #196
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That sounds like a big centerfire cartridge/firearm.
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It is the S&W 500 Magnum. This is it next to a full size 1911. The round next to it is a .45ACP. Just to put the size into a bit more perspective, the revolver weighs 3.5 pounds empty.

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Old 05-09-2013, 16:41   #197
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In the right hands even a .22 can be a very effective weapon. http://www.tactical-life.com/tactica...mossad-22-lrs/

My first handgun instructor was an Israeli who carried a Beretta 70. He would have taken first place at many of the IDPA matches I have shot.

I carry a G19 or 26 most of the time. I wonder if my old instructor would be disappointed?
If you shoot Master level you too can get by with a 22lr or mousegun, maybe. It's a choice. if carrying & mousegun as primary, you better be practicing, a lot. If you can't deliver exactly the same level of shooting as your normal ccw, then it will likely fail you, just facts man. I think any gun gives some comfort, but if you knew you were likely to get into a gunfight, only had a handgun available to you, would you choose the mousegun? SOme how I doubt it.
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Old 05-09-2013, 16:51   #198
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In the right hands even a .22 can be a very effective weapon. http://www.tactical-life.com/tactica...mossad-22-lrs/

My first handgun instructor was an Israeli who carried a Beretta 70. He would have taken first place at many of the IDPA matches I have shot.

I carry a G19 or 26 most of the time. I wonder if my old instructor would be disappointed?
In the right hands, ANY caliber can be lethal. I understand the argument of the people here posting that the .380 is just not good enough for a primary carry pistol. Factor in that most people are not capable of winning competitions however I gaurantee almost all can hit a target from a normal distance that would be used in a self defense situation. With stress, your aim will likely be pretty piss poor and you will likely also not be aiming down the sights depending on the scenario. Taking these things into consideration, a larger and more powerful caliber is much more likely to stop the threat than a .380.

Take for instance the officers on video that killed the guy on a NYC street after he shot someone a while back. Under duress, even the ones trained among us to deal with these situations have diminished capacities. That is not a bash against officers in any way either, just the first example that came to mind when trying to demonstrate diminshed aiming ability in a stressful and adrenaline filled situation.

On a side note, my LCP is my only choice for concealment with some of my attire and I doubt anyone here can argue that something is better than nothing. Would I be carrying my G19? Absolutely. Will I carry my LCP if it is my only viable option? Again, absolutely.

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Old 05-09-2013, 16:56   #199
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My EDC is a Wilson Combat Professional .45. Is that manly enough for you .380 haters?

Every now and then I carry my Walther German PPK/S with Hydro-Shoks in it. I do not feel undergunned. Shot placement is all.

I also carry sometimes my S&W Model 60. I still do not feel undergunned. If you cannot take care of the situation with five rounds, you are going to lose anyway.

I also think that the posters in this thread that call the .380 a sissy gun and a girly gun most likely have manhood problems. There is no call for that kind of hate. It's just one of many calibers.

And, lastly, I just love the posters who talk of getting in a gunfight. If one is not a cop, the chances of getting a gunfight are so slim as to be laughable.
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Old 05-09-2013, 16:59   #200
fg17
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
In the right hands even a .22 can be a very effective weapon. http://www.tactical-life.com/tactica...mossad-22-lrs/

My first handgun instructor was an Israeli who carried a Beretta 70. He would have taken first place at many of the IDPA matches I have shot.

I carry a G19 or 26 most of the time. I wonder if my old instructor would be disappointed?
Thanks for the link. interesting history. I always new the mossad used .22s for assasinations but did not now they actually used them in full on gun battles
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42