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Old 05-07-2013, 10:04   #121
PhotoFeller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
That probably doesn't follow.

Hope this helps.
Why have police departments and federal agencies abandoned 9mm in favor of .40 and bigger?

When preparing for self defense in a life/death situation, why would citizens accept anything less powerful than the weapon LEOs carry?

I realize the Army and other US military units still use 9mm, but the choice of 9mm has not been without controversy. I understand some special units are issued 1911s in .45.

I understand that .380 is a weak round for SD; it is the least effective caliber on the list of SD weapons. Is 9mm effective to the extent that it is in the same class as .357, .45, etc.?

I accept .380 is a poor choice for SD. Why should I be comfortable with 9mm when professionals have rejected it?
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:40   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Why have police departments and federal agencies abandoned 9mm in favor of .40 and bigger?
They haven't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
When preparing for self defense in a life/death situation, why would citizens accept anything less powerful than the weapon LEOs carry?
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I realize the Army and other US military units still use 9mm
They sure do!


Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I understand that .380 is a weak round for SD
Agreed.


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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
Is 9mm effective to the extent that it is in the same class as .357, .45, etc.?
Yup.

Legitimate service cartridge, it is.

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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I accept .380 is a poor choice for SD.
Good deal.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:48   #123
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Originally Posted by Warp View Post
They haven't.



See above.



They sure do!




Agreed.




Yup.

Legitimate service cartridge, it is.



Good deal.
Thanks.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:03   #124
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Why have police departments and federal agencies abandoned 9mm in favor of .40 and bigger?
Not uncommon for LE agencies to switch calibers several times over the years.

I do not know of any department issuing .357mag, .38 super and .44spec/.44mag handguns however that sure does not mean either are inferior man stoppers. The .357mag has quite the history some years ago in LE, which help lead to my favorite pistol cartridge.

Last edited by dkf; 05-07-2013 at 12:04..
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:51   #125
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I carry an 88 magnum

Caliber Corner
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Old 05-07-2013, 13:49   #126
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One man's experience. My friend was in his store when a BG came in to rob him, got the drop on him and as he was headed toward the door, my friend got his .380 and yelled at BG who turned and as he was bringing up his gun to line up on this storekeeper, my friend got off three quick shots. BG runs outside and gets away. No blood trail, no dents in door frame, no broken glass. Days later Mr. BG goes to local hospital with three abdominal wounds. Do you still want to carry a .380? If you do aim higher for the chest or head or use a larger caliber.
How was that an unsatisfactory outcome for your friend?

In circa 2006 my friend's brother in Utah was confronted by an armed angry ex con. He shot the criminal in the neck. It dropped him and killed him. I don't know what ammunition he had in the gun, the shoot was ruled justifiable.

380 is hardly ideal but is not doomed to fail either.

Edit: I personally do know someone else who was shot with a 380. I met him a few years later when he was clean. He was selling dope at the time (crank) and was hugely fat. He was shot a few times with I believe a Lorcin 380 and his response was to get up and kick one of the two would be robbers ass, the other robber ran away. Scott died a few years ago so I am relying on what he related to me some years back. Other people verified to me that after he had been shot he fought his shooter.

Sorry for the unverifiable anecdotes.
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Last edited by G26S239; 05-07-2013 at 14:09.. Reason: recalled Scott's account after initial post.
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Old 05-07-2013, 14:12   #127
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As I get older and realize that I am no longer 10 feet tall and bullet proof, my G30 is more and more comforting.
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Old 05-07-2013, 14:21   #128
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As I get older and realize that I am no longer 10 feet tall and bullet proof, my G30 is more and more comforting.
That is understandable. I no longer have my G30 but I have a 36 and USP45 compact. Even out of a 3.8" barrel a 230 grain bullet is pretty good.
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Old 05-07-2013, 14:43   #129
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caliber is not a good substitute for shot placement.

ive seen men take large caliber rounds (9mm or bigger) to the chest and walk to the ambulance. ive seen men take a single small caliber round (.32acp and .25acp) to the neck area and die in seconds.

in fact there is the Tpr. Coats murder to consider....he died from a single .22lr fired from a mini gun while his murderer lived after taking five .38spl +p from a 4" bbl to the abdomin.

nobody can intelligently argue that the .380acp is good for defense, but it is better than nothing.

if you can carry bigger you should do so.
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Old 05-07-2013, 14:58   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
caliber is not a good substitute for shot placement.

ive seen men take large caliber rounds (9mm or bigger) to the chest and walk to the ambulance. ive seen men take a single small caliber round (.32acp and .25acp) to the neck area and die in seconds.

in fact there is the Tpr. Coats murder to consider....he died from a single .22lr fired from a mini gun while his murderer lived after taking five .38spl +p from a 4" bbl to the abdomin.

nobody can intelligently argue that the .380acp is good for defense, but it is better than nothing.

if you can carry bigger you should do so.
Good stuff... Shot placement is key.
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Old 05-07-2013, 17:59   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
caliber is not a good substitute for shot placement.

ive seen men take large caliber rounds (9mm or bigger) to the chest and walk to the ambulance. ive seen men take a single small caliber round (.32acp and .25acp) to the neck area and die in seconds.

in fact there is the Tpr. Coats murder to consider....he died from a single .22lr fired from a mini gun while his murderer lived after taking five .38spl +p from a 4" bbl to the abdomin.

nobody can intelligently argue that the .380acp is good for defense, but it is better than nothing.

if you can carry bigger you should do so.
All true but anyone that thinks they are delivering perfect shot placement in a gunfight are kidding themselves. WHy you carry the largest caliber you can shoot well. You may only land one hit & it is likely to be less than perfect. If I knew my attack would come at arms length, then anything would do as it would be an easy headshot. Not likely though is it.
I worked out my buddies LCP pretty extensively. I was able to get decent hits out to 25yds w/ the crappy little sights & so-so trigger, but it was very deliberate shooting. Much easier to get the same hits w/ a slightly larger gun & better sights/trigger. I can always dress around any gun I choose to carry.
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Last edited by fredj338; 05-07-2013 at 18:01..
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:32   #132
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All true but anyone that thinks they are delivering perfect shot placement in a gunfight are kidding themselves. WHy you carry the largest caliber you can shoot well. You may only land one hit & it is likely to be less than perfect. If I knew my attack would come at arms length, then anything would do as it would be an easy headshot. Not likely though is it.
I worked out my buddies LCP pretty extensively. I was able to get decent hits out to 25yds w/ the crappy little sights & so-so trigger, but it was very deliberate shooting. Much easier to get the same hits w/ a slightly larger gun & better sights/trigger. I can always dress around any gun I choose to carry.
so you agree with me?
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:42   #133
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so you agree with me?
Only in that a 380 is better than nothing. IMO, if you are serious about carrying a gun, carry something you can fight with under most circumstance. Assuming your fight will be only at 21ft or less & a single opponent is not realistic, you'll fail miserably as distance increase or the number of attackers. Few that carry a mouse gun carry a spare mag, so now you have a caliber that is woefully lacking & only 6-7rds. Seems like a bad position to put yourself in when there are always better options.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:48   #134
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Only in that a 380 is better than nothing. IMO, if you are serious about carrying a gun, carry something you can fight with under most circumstance. Assuming your fight will be only at 21ft or less & a single opponent is not realistic, you'll fail miserably as distance increase or the number of attackers. Few that carry a mouse gun carry a spare mag, so now you have a caliber that is woefully lacking & only 6-7rds. Seems like a bad position to put yourself in when there are always better options.
i thought my ending sentence summed it up pretty well. what about that do you disagree with?
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:27   #135
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I never was able to get comfortable relying on ONLY a .380 for EDC so I traded it off for a 9mm. The only way I would ever carry a .380 again is as a BUG, never as a primary carry.

Pro's: Concealability. Its better than nothing, or the .45 you leave at home.

Cons: Hollow points either fail to adequately expand due to low velocity, or when they do fully expand, penetration suffers.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:37   #136
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again, if you can carry larger you should do so. that said, there are times when all a person can carry and conceal adequately is a mini gun. women and other small framed folks in hot and HUMID climates when engaged in certain functions cannot go with adequate concealment garb. engaging in certain activities also limits the size of the gun.

for sedimentary folks, the bleacher crowd and all, this is less likely a hinderence.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:51   #137
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I rarely carry my Sig p238 because a G26 is so easy to conceal. When I do carry the p238, it's loaded with 100 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast flat nose (1050 fps from that gun), and I've got an extra mag.

Of course, I would rather have my G26 or G19 with HST 147s or Ranger T 127s but I am confident that the 238 will be a good weapon in my hands.
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Old 05-08-2013, 13:55   #138
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there might be a limit on how large. I saw a fellow shooting his 2" 500 S&W at 7 yds on the pistol range. on his second shoot it blew the backer board of the trolley.

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Old 05-08-2013, 16:40   #139
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Luuuve my Ruger NRA version LCP 380 w Crimson trace lazer at 25 feet i shoot a consistent 3" group. Anyone thinks this little guy is not enough for close up and personal is wrong wrong wrong. Sorry check it against 9mm yup a 9 is a little more but not enough that matters in my book. OK talk about stopping power try my G20 10 mm with that work? 40 cal? 45? 44 mag. Just remember shot placement is everything
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Old 05-08-2013, 16:42   #140
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I rarely carry my Sig p238 because a G26 is so easy to conceal. When I do carry the p238, it's loaded with 100 gr Buffalo Bore hard cast flat nose (1050 fps from that gun), and I've got an extra mag.

Of course, I would rather have my G26 or G19 with HST 147s or Ranger T 127s but I am confident that the 238 will be a good weapon in my hands.
Just to add a bit to this: Those BB 100gr HCFN bullets had a 24" penetration (!!!) in a chart/test I saw a while back. I cannot find it for the life of me, but I thought 24" was pretty extreme for a 380 round!

And those BB HP rounds gave 12-13" penetration, too. If you ever get attacked by a block of ballistics gel, those rounds would dispatch it quickly!

When I carry the 380 (please...) it is loaded with some of that BB hard cast stuff. I bought it mainly for the grandudes to shoot. They don't get the BB stuff (too expensive!) but it's a good gun for the boys to shoot.
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