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Old 05-05-2013, 18:37   #76
fg17
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dont get the word "afraid" and "prepared" mixed up. theres a difference




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Ok, But don't get the word "prepared" and "paranoid" mixed up.
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Old 05-05-2013, 19:03   #77
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...Now, would I rather have one of my 5-shot J's loaded with one of the better JHP +p loads? Sure. I like the heavier bullet weights available in the .38 +P loads...

I'm confused. So why not front pocket carry the J Frame? I'll assume you're not wearing Spandex pants.


I think an objective point is that many carry a gun to accommodate their style of dress and not vice versa, the latter being the better in theory. Sure, the easier road taken is one of comfort and few would dispute that. My only fear is that many are basing their decision on not what will work best for them, but rather what they feel will work best for them based upon a personal theory they have never tested and tempered with lots of perhaps misplaced faith in that they will never need to fire a shot in defense of life or in their ability alone to use proper shot placement to extricate themselves from a sticky situation. Perhaps they can. As for me, I've lived long enough to realize that I am a piss poor gambler and also that no scenario in life plays out like I want it to.
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Old 05-05-2013, 19:15   #78
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I've drafted a post for this thread a few times, but always decided to delete it. maybe this one will get posted.

Anyway, the advantages of the diminutive .380's are few, with the primary ones being lighter weights & smaller sizes than most of the smallish 9's.

Disadvantages run longer, and mostly revolve around how much harder it is for many folks to shoot the little .380's accurately, controllably, rapidly & effectively.

The primary reason I bought a Ruger LCP after I got rid of my last .380 about 25 years ago was the smaller overall size. I could clip it into some pants pockets in which I couldn't slip one of my 5-shot J-frames.

I'd watched a lot of our folks shoot various smallish .380's for quals, including the Bodyguard .380 & LCP, but it wasn't until I finally relented to a close friend's urging to try his LCP that I decided to get one of my own. Now, I carry it a surprising amount of the time.

I figured out the trigger within the first mag load, and experienced being able to make very small, tightly clustered, clover-leaf groups from 3-7 yds right away, and that was using 3 types of modern JHP loads (Speer GDHP, Ranger T-Series & Rem GS HPJ).

The little gun was amazing when it came to practical accuracy, even with the rudimentary iron sights (which reminded me of older J-frame sights).

I could make solid hits even when shooting-while-moving against standard size threat targets ranging from 7-10+ yds, too, and get respectable hits at further distances.

Now, would I rather have one of my 5-shot J's loaded with one of the better JHP +p loads? Sure. I like the heavier bullet weights available in the .38 +P loads.

Would I rather have the LCP instead of not being armed when running around town in really light clothes and hot weather? Absolutely.

Spare me the "comforting versus comfortable" spiel. I've carried a gun with a badge for 30 years, and have been a firearms instructor for more than 20 years, so I understand the meaning behind the comment (but also think any number of folks may be taking his comment out of context, at times, too).

Caliber? Yep, the .380 is on the lighter end of things for a dedicated defensive weapon.

Sure, improved ammunition has given us some better expanding options, but there's that TANSTAAFL issue ... meaning there's always going to be at one place where you have to choose where you're willing to compromise.

I'd rather have the LCP ... (or Bodyguard, but it's just enough larger than the LCP that I refrained, and I didn't want the added bulk of the integral laser) ... than another itty bitty .22 or .25, both of which I tried out as a young cop. Not keen on the .32, either, which is even smaller and lighter in caliber & bullet weight than the .380 ACP.

I'd much rather have one of my .357 Magnum, .45, .40 S&W or 9mm pistols than one of my .38's or my .380 ... but there are increasingly more times when I simply don't want to belt on a larger handgun anymore, or pocket-carry one of my subcompact Glock 9's/.40, my CS9, SW999c, CS45, etc.

The 5-shot .38 is a "better" compromise than the .380, and as a long time revolver shooter I do well enough with them ... but the LCP is another option I've found useful.

I've listened to a couple of officer safety/tactics, etc classes in the last year where there were any number of instances involving cops saving themselves with secondary/backup weapons chambered in both .38 Spl & .380 ACP. They're still doing the job, so to speak, which is probably why they're still authorized (or even issued) as secondary & off-duty weapons ... and nowadays we have better choices for guns chambered in both calibers, as well as the ammunition used in each.

Mindset - Awareness - Skillset - Experience - Training - Practice.

A lack of any of these arguably critical considerations isn't something that's necessarily going to be offset or remedied by "caliber".

Whenever someone wants to start some "spirited debate" at the range, or feels the need to denigrate the choice of another shooter, I remind them that the "proof of the matter" is often found demonstrated out at the firing line, when someone is performing one of the more demanding & difficult courses-of-fire.

You have to be able to make sound decisions ... using good judgment, drawing upon knowledge, training & experience ... act upon a decision ... use good skills & tactics ... and get a sufficient number of accurate & solid hits on the intended threat target(s). Everything else may be a distraction.

You see enough gunshot victims, "caliber" starts to take on a bit less importance.

Just my thoughts. I absolutely respect differing opinions of other folks, too. As an instructor, I work with the person, first & foremost. Their choice of gun/caliber is their choice ... unless it's a requirement/restriction, in which case it doesn't matter what either of us thing about it, right?

I guess I'll post this one ...
Nicely said with a good ring of reasonableness to it.

I know generally how the ballistics of .380 compare to bigger calibers, so one can't argue that the smaller gun is highly desirable in a shootout. Still, I believe my PPK and Sig .380 will influence some folks to leave me the hell alone in some situations and will put some serious hurt on anybody soaking up .380 bullets if I ever have to use it.

I've gravitated in the past year to a Kahr PW9 in 9mm for pocket carry, but there are times, like a long bike ride, when the smaller .380 fills the bill very nicely.
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Old 05-05-2013, 19:47   #79
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I don't care if they ban me... !

MY God don't ya get it ? .380 and below are not for SD ! Have none of you been in a real gun fight ? Have none of you ever been in bar brawls, or 'battle field', or bad news situuations?

I have, many times. a .380 is a POC, in these situations.

I am just a freaking voice here, but one with experience !

Shoot your BG with a .380. PO him, make him more angry !

This is a stupid discussion ! period ! A forum internet armchair bunch of BS....

Live it , do it , then come back and tell me how well your little mouse gun did. !


I could care less less who believes me or not, but I can tell you old boy's i have been in a dump load of senerio's and i would NOT be caught with a .380 auto to get out of them !


I really hesitate to give details on the internet.... Believe me or not. That is that !


Sorrry for being so harsh.... but my gosh, this is all ridiculous !



Get a caliber to use, and Stop worrrying about weight and recoil, and get something to help save your life ! There is NO magic caliber or hand gun, but the mouse guns are a freaking joke ! Wake up boys !



I'M A NICE GUY..... !







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Old 05-05-2013, 19:51   #80
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Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post
I don't care if they ban me... !

MY God don't ya get it ? .380 and below are not for SD ! Have none of you been in a real gun fight ? Have none of you ever been in bar brawls, or 'battle field', or bad news situuations?

I have, many times. a .380 is a POC, in these situations.

I am just a freaking voice here, but one with experience !

Shoot your BG with a .380. PO him, make him more angry !

This is a stupid discussion ! period ! A forum internet armchair bunch of BS....

Live it , do it , then come back and tell me how well your little mouse gun did. !


I could care less less who believes me or not, but I can tell you old boy's i have been in a dump load of senerio's and i would NOT be caught with a .380 auto to get out of them !


I really hesitate to give details on the internet.... Believe me or not. That is that !


Sorrry for being so harsh.... but my gosh, this is all ridiculous !



Get a caliber to use, and Stop worrrying about weight and recoil, and get something to help save your life ! There is NO magic caliber or hand gun, but the mouse guns are a freaking joke ! Wake up boys !



I'M A NICE GUY..... !







CanyonMan

What kind of real world 380 experience do you have?
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Old 05-05-2013, 20:37   #81
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That was just one example.
And it is a poor example/not an apt analogy, as I explained.

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No I don't wear a helmet in my car.
That's not what I asked. I asked if you had ever worn a helmet in a car.


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Originally Posted by fg17 View Post
When I was younger very few states even had concealed carry and we survived just fine.
What was the murder rate then compared to now, nationally?

People "survived just fine" before a lot of things, you know. After all, we are still here as a species. Doesn't mean I'm about to go without toilet paper, just because for 99.x% of human history people survived just fine without it.
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Old 05-05-2013, 21:10   #82
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...What was the murder rate then compared to now, nationally?...

Here's a fascinating theory and one I personally subscribe to:


http://scholar.harvard.edu/barro/fil...imerate_bw.pdf
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Old 05-05-2013, 21:31   #83
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Originally Posted by fg17 View Post
, When I was younger very few states even had concealed carry and we survived just fine. I'm glad we have it now but I'm still not afraid to leave my house without a gun.
Before the laws there were none against concealed carry, and some places had easy access to permits and some paces you couldn't buy guns at all, and on and on.

Rather simplistic to say that "we survived". Yes people do survive without modern medicine until they die. .People survive without seat bets and airbags until they come to a sudden and unexpected stop.

If you have convinced yourself that you live in some crime free paradise, or you have convinced yourself about some statistical odds and you are willing to bet your life on them, fly to it. But delusion or gambling on the odds is by no means a reason to feel smug.
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Old 05-05-2013, 21:32   #84
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Here's a fascinating theory and one I personally subscribe to:


http://scholar.harvard.edu/barro/fil...imerate_bw.pdf
I am familiar with that. I believe it likely played a role.

I believe this also played a role:

Caliber Corner
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Old 05-05-2013, 21:49   #85
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MY God don't ya get it ? .380 and below are not for SD ! Have none of you been in a real gun fight ? Have none of you ever been in bar brawls, or 'battle field', or bad news situuations?

This is a stupid discussion ! period ! A forum internet armchair bunch of BS....

CanyonMan
I'm guessing that 95+% of folks here have never been in a gunfight of any kind. And, in reality, we won't ever need a gun to survive...10mm, .45 or anything else. The vast gunfighting experience you claim to have is a very rare exception.

If I ever really expected to be faced with a deadly attack, like the world you apparently live in, I'd be packin' the biggest, finest, most reliable hardware money could buy. Nothing would be too expensive. I'd be well trained. I'd dress with whatever is necessary to cover my big, first-class piece. I'd be a hard-assed pistolero, looking for a safer place to live. Instead, I am a realistic guy living in a relatively safe environment. When I go out for a long bike ride, carrying a .380 isn't a risky compromise; its having some insurance against a highly unlikely SD situation.

There's a huge difference between my reality and yours. In your world, .380 is a joke. In mine, .380 provides a convenient firearm for protection against an unlikely attack.

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Old 05-05-2013, 22:29   #86
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Before the laws there were none against concealed carry, and some places had easy access to permits and some paces you couldn't buy guns at all, and on and on.

Rather simplistic to say that "we survived". Yes people do survive without modern medicine until they die. .People survive without seat bets and airbags until they come to a sudden and unexpected stop.

If you have convinced yourself that you live in some crime free paradise, or you have convinced yourself about some statistical odds and you are willing to bet your life on them, fly to it. But delusion or gambling on the odds is by no means a reason to feel smug.
I'm not 100% convinced on anything, nothing worse than people that are. Tell you what PM me the next time your in a gun fight and maybe you will change my mind.
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Old 05-05-2013, 22:34   #87
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And it is a poor example/not an apt analogy, as I explained.



That's not what I asked. I asked if you had ever worn a helmet in a car.




What was the murder rate then compared to now, nationally?

People "survived just fine" before a lot of things, you know. After all, we are still here as a species. Doesn't mean I'm about to go without toilet paper, just because for 99.x% of human history people survived just fine without it.
No never in my car. same goes for you pm me the next time your in a gunfight or anyone you personally know is and maybe I will change my mind. Also I still have some faith in the .380

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Old 05-05-2013, 22:35   #88
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Caliber Corner Caliber Corner I could actually fit my Sub2000 40 Cal. in my golf bag- it folds to 16"
What is your optic setup, such that it flips to the side when folding?

I've always wanted a sub2k but the stock sights left alot to be desired.

As well, the price skyrocketed to 2x or 3x just as I became aware of them. One day that will be my trunk/backpack backup!


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Old 05-05-2013, 22:38   #89
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What is your optic setup, such that it flips to the side when folding?

I've always wanted a sub2k but the stock sights left alot to be desired.

As well, the price skyrocketed to 2x or 3x just as I became aware of them. One day that will be my trunk/backpack backup!


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I don't think it flips.. It just detaches and mounts on the side rail when folded.
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Old 05-05-2013, 22:49   #90
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I don't think it flips.. It just detaches and mounts on the side rail when folded.
If that's the case, on such a cheap gun (cheap but rather smart), I suspect you'd lose zero each time you disconnected to fold.

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Old 05-05-2013, 23:02   #91
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I'm not 100% convinced on anything, nothing worse than people that are. Tell you what PM me the next time your in a gun fight and maybe you will change my mind.
Tell you what Sport,

Do a search. "State of Oregon Death Row" Look for, "Gregory Alan (Allen?) Bowen"

I was one of 12 people that sentenced him to death. Read about his crime and the nice man he murdered, who was at home and unarmed. in a nice remote neighborhood. And he was just one of the meth fueled murder trials on the docket at the time.
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Old 05-05-2013, 23:07   #92
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I don't think it flips.. It just detaches and mounts on the side rail when folded.
No detaching necessary, Red Lion Precision makes an aftermarket rail that rotates so the optic turns to the side and still locks. My setup is almost identical to the one in the first vid, I used his vid as a model to upgrade mine pretty much. The second vid is actually my younger brother shooting mine at the range. Cool little carbine


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Old 05-05-2013, 23:42   #93
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Tell you what Sport,

Do a search. "State of Oregon Death Row" Look for, "Gregory Alan (Allen?) Bowen"

I was one of 12 people that sentenced him to death. Read about his crime and the nice man he murdered, who was at home and unarmed. in a nice remote neighborhood. And he was just one of the meth fueled murder trials on the docket at the time.
I have never called you names. You have called me delusional, smug and now sport. No need to get so mad.
To everyone else I stand by everthing I have said, just my opinion. I did make the mistake of getting off topic and should have just pointed out the PROS an CONS of the .380 and for that I'm sorry.

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Old 05-06-2013, 00:26   #94
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I am familiar with that. I believe it likely played a role.

I believe this also played a role:

Caliber Corner

I agree. I remember when it was almost impossible for a citizen to get a CCW short of being the mayor's bankroller. Ironically, the move away from sidearms came first in the Old West in the late 19th century as many there thought that it had become "civilized" and therefore no need for them as when the Frontier was wild. It took the country approx. a hundred years to "rediscover" that mankind hasn't changed.
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Old 05-06-2013, 02:54   #95
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I'm confused. So why not front pocket carry the J Frame? ...

... My only fear is that many are basing their decision on not what will work best for them, but rather what they feel will work best for them based upon a personal theory they have never tested and tempered with lots of perhaps misplaced faith in that they will never need to fire a shot in defense of life or in their ability alone to use proper shot placement to extricate themselves from a sticky situation.

... As for me, I've lived long enough to realize that I am a piss poor gambler and also that no scenario in life plays out like I want it to.
I don't particularly disagree on any point.

Not all of my front pants pockets will accommodate my J's. (No spandex, either. ) Sure, I could change pants, only buying & wearing those with larger pockets, but when it comes down to it, I no longer feel the need to dress around a weapon all the time anymore.

Having worked as an instructor with both LE and lawfully armed CCW-type folks, I have little doubt but that a significant number of them do indeed base their choices on what they feel and hope will work for them, and that they could make better choices in one way or another.

My own thoughts and opinions have been, like many of us, shaped and influenced by my past experiences, as well as my training. They've evolved over time and experience (including having been privy to the unfortunate experiences of others).

I learned many years ago that I'm not much of a gambler, either, myself.

On the other hand, after more than 40 years of martial arts involvement and seeing what happens when people do bad things to each other (on & off the field), I've come to look at things with what I feel is a balanced proportion of risk assessment ... for me. Not an easy decision, nor one especially quickly made.

I may not belt on one of my .44 Magnum revolvers as a retirement CCW (which I did as an off-duty weapon as a younger cop, and I knew any number of guys who carried them on-duty back then), or even one of my 6-shot .357's or .45's as often as I used to do, but I will still carry one of my larger pistols frequently enough upon occasion.

The J's - and now the LCP - are for those times when I simply don't want to carry a larger weapon, or I don't plan to be engaged in activities in higher threat locations, but still feel it prudent to be armed.

Just as importantly, however, is that I work to keep my skills sharp with those diminutive handguns. They aren't pocket jewelry or a lucky Rabbit's Foot to me.

Obviously, I wouldn't carry either as a primary weapon if I were still actively working, but I'd carry one or the other as a secondary/backup weapon ... and I'm not adverse to using either of them in the role of a retirement CCW weapon, in many instances.

I suppose that I just look at some things differently at 60 than I did at 30. Not sure how I'll think about it in another 10, 20 or more years, either.

How about this other thread? http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1484961
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:37   #96
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Originally Posted by Delmonte67 View Post
No detaching necessary, Red Lion Precision makes an aftermarket rail that rotates so the optic turns to the side and still locks. My setup is almost identical to the one in the first vid, I used his vid as a model to upgrade mine pretty much. The second vid is actually my younger brother shooting mine at the range. Cool little carbine
Wow! That is as awesome as it gets!! I didn't know they made such a thing.
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Old 05-06-2013, 14:03   #97
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No never in my car. same goes for you pm me the next time your in a gunfight or anyone you personally know is and maybe I will change my mind. Also I still have some faith in the .380
So you have won gunfights with your .380?

Let's hear about it!
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Old 05-06-2013, 15:04   #98
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The 380 debate always causes this much argument but we now have a bonafide .380 gunfighter on the board.

BTW.... is this you? This guy won with a 380


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Old 05-06-2013, 15:09   #99
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Fortunately for that guy he could have won with blanks.

That is not uncommon, though.
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Old 05-06-2013, 15:22   #100
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So you have won gunfights with your .380?

Let's hear about it!
No, never said I did. Surprised I haven't with the big bad world being so dangerous and crazy. I did have to shoot a vicious german shepard that tried to attack me while I was running once. Worked out quite nicely

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