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Old 05-04-2013, 11:06   #21
barth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven07 View Post
I have been doing a lot of reading over the last past week on the 380 cartridge and have really developed some mixed feelings about it. Some say it has enough stopping power to resolve a situation and others claim that it has been proven not to even pass through heavy clothing. What are your views on the cartridge?
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 3-D |115@1178, 19.4 mv, 354 E|BR 11.6", 0.54", 2.66cu|CL 13.9", 0.48", 2.52cu|avg 2.59, 3.10 re, 0.84
9x19 Rem +P+ |115@1221, 20.1 mv, 380 E|BR 10.8", 0.63", 3.37cu|CL 10.9", 0.62", 3.29cu|avg 3.33, 3.33 re, 1.00
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1259, 20.7 mv, 404 E|BR 12.3", 0.67", 4.35cu|CL 22.1", 0.40", 2.78cu|avg 3.43, 3.54 re, 0.97
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18
9x19 CorBon +P |115@1317, 21.6 mv, 442 E|BR 8.9", 0.52", 1.90cu|CL 10.2", 0.61", 2.98cu|avg 2.44, 3.87 re, 0.63
9x19 Fed +P |115@1237, 20.3 mv, 390 E|BR 11.2", 0.53", 2.48cu|CL 10.6", 0.62", 3.20cu|avg 2.84, 3.41 re, 0.83
9x19 Fed Silvertip |115@1091, 17.9 mv, 304 E|BR 10.1", 0.63", 3.13cu|CL 11.8", 0.58", 3.12cu|avg 3.13, 2.66 re, 1.18
9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1116, 19.8 mv, 342 E|BR 11.8", 0.69", 4.41cu|CL 22.0", 0.36", 2.24cu|avg 3.22, 3.23 re, 1.00
9x19 Rem |124@1109, 19.6 mv, 338 E|BR 12.4", 0.60", 3.52cu|CL 13.7", 0.57", 3.50cu|avg 3.51, 3.19 re, 1.10
9x19 PMC/Eldorado SF |124@1118, 19.8 mv, 344 E|BR 10.7", 0.63", 3.32cu|CL 20.1", 0.41", 2.65cu|avg 2.98, 3.24 re, 0.92
9x19 CorBon XTP |124@1123, 19.9 mv, 347 E|BR 13.9", 0.56", 3.44cu|CL 18.3", 0.46", 3.04cu|avg 3.24, 3.27 re, 0.99
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14
9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38
9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14
9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 995, 20.9 mv, 323 E|BR 21.4", 0.37", 2.30cu|CL 15.6", 0.60", 4.41cu|avg 3.28, 3.61 re, 0.91
9x19 Win Silvertip |147@ 902, 18.9 mv, 265 E|BR 14.6", 0.53", 3.22cu|CL 18.1", 0.47", 3.14cu|avg 3.18, 2.97 re, 1.07
9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1068, 18.9 mv, 314 E|BR 12.6", 0.59", 3.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.51", 3.57cu|avg 3.51, 2.96 re, 1.19
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17
9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54
9x19 Win Ranger T |147@1016, 21.3 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.72cu|CL 15.7", 0.00", 0.00cu|avg 2.36, 3.76 re, 0.63
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.380 Win Silvertip | 85@ 954, 11.6 mv, 172 E|BR 7.9", 0.58", 2.09cu|CL 9.1", 0.47", 1.58cu|avg 1.83, 1.11 re, 1.65
.380 CCI/Speer GD | 88@ 914, 11.5 mv, 163 E|BR 11.6", 0.46", 1.92cu|CL 17.2", 0.35", 1.66cu|avg 1.79, 1.09 re, 1.64
.380 CCI/Speer GD | 90@ 934, 12.0 mv, 174 E|BR 9.3", 0.59", 2.54cu|CL 11.3", 0.49", 2.14cu|avg 2.34, 1.19 re, 1.96
.380 Fed HydraShok | 90@ 971, 12.5 mv, 188 E|BR 6.7", 0.66", 2.29cu|CL 12.0", 0.49", 2.26cu|avg 2.28, 1.29 re, 1.77
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:09   #22
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
I think that in all honesty you are saying these things to convince yourself and not others. I agree about the rifle, shotgun, vest, etc. for the common layman, however spare mags are always a plus just as is a reserve parachute for a parachutist. He may never need it, but no one sane would jump without one.

The bottom line is that almost everyone who carries a .380 does so for convenience and to be frank that is the worst reason to carry a CCW. CCW's are meant to save life which entails far more than just convenience. Just my 2 cents. Good luck.
Not trying convince anyone, carry whatever you think you need to. I'm comfortable with my decision. I do agree with you that there is a middle ground between being armed to the max and carrying a mini 380.
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:11   #23
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carried big guns for a long time, then slowly started carrying less and less and then not at all. Figured the odds of me needing a gun where pretty slim. Survived a lot of violent situations without a gun. Bought a ruger lcp 380 now i carry everywhere again.
exactly !!!
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:12   #24
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Just get a Ruger LCP380 and load it with Hornaday 90 Gr. XTP
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Old 05-04-2013, 11:35   #25
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There are no ballistic "Pros" IMO.
Well, maybe there are a couple:

Number 1 -- read and re-read what Canyon Man says! (And how are you, my friend?) he knows of which he speaks.

Second, if you must carry a 380 (and some just might...) look at Buffalo Bore 100gr Hard Cast lead flat nose +P ammo. 24" penetration!!! Not cheap, I believe it was $26 for 20 rounds. But it is hot! (for a 380...)

Or BB 95gr +P HP which will give you 12-13" penetration. Same pricing.

Wouldn't use it (couldn't afford to!) all the time. It would beat hell outta the gun but for SD in a pinch I'd say your odds just increased a smidge.
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:13   #26
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Maybe, but I will take my chances. Besides I do have some faith in the .380 cartridge. Lets face it the odds of using your gun in self defense are slim. A lot of people live in a fantasy world and if they want to carry a big gun, 3 mags, rifle or shot gun in the trunk, vest and a trauma kit more power them. Lets be honest car accidents, cancer and heart disease are the real killers, but that's not as much fun to think about. Not to say a person should not be prepared and every ones situation is different. As a lifelong martial artist self defense is always on my mind but I try to keep things in perspective.

The odds of using your trauma kit aren't that great so why not just carry a box of band-aids instead?
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:30   #27
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Odds. He's talking about odds, and he's right.
He's doing it wrong.

By definition the odds are already against you by the time the gun/caliber you are carrying becomes a factor. If you are going to play the odds, don't carry, because you will likeyl never need it. Or carry an unloaded gun or something with blanks, because you will almost surely never need to shoot somebody to protect yourself/another.

However, if you want something that gives you good odds of doing its job if and when the worse should happen, then you will need to consider the effectiveness of the firearm/cartridge you choose to carry.
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Old 05-04-2013, 13:42   #28
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Originally Posted by steven07 View Post
I have been doing a lot of reading over the last past week on the 380 cartridge and have really developed some mixed feelings about it. Some say it has enough stopping power to resolve a situation and others claim that it has been proven not to even pass through heavy clothing. What are your views on the cartridge?
I've read that LAPD approves
Hornady Critical Defense .380 caliber, 90 grain load for back up guns.

Last edited by barth; 05-04-2013 at 13:45..
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Old 05-04-2013, 14:02   #29
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Originally Posted by robhic View Post
Well, maybe there are a couple:

Number 1 -- read and re-read what Canyon Man says! (And how are you, my friend?) he knows of which he speaks.

Second, if you must carry a 380 (and some just might...) look at Buffalo Bore 100gr Hard Cast lead flat nose +P ammo. 24" penetration!!! Not cheap, I believe it was $26 for 20 rounds. But it is hot! (for a 380...)

Or BB 95gr +P HP which will give you 12-13" penetration. Same pricing.

Wouldn't use it (couldn't afford to!) all the time. It would beat hell outta the gun but for SD in a pinch I'd say your odds just increased a smidge.
I think Buffalo Bore is the "magic bullet" for the LCP.
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Old 05-04-2013, 14:14   #30
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I have spoke to several people like Ken Hackathorn and Paul Gomez about this as well as reading DOCGKR's thoughts on the .380 and they all agree. For defensive carry 9mm is the smallest caliber that they recommend. There is no .380 round that passes the FBI gel test for penetration. It beats not having a gun but they don't consider it adequate for self-defense even as a backup. I witnessed a gel block test several years ago and saw it for myself. I quit using my LCP as a backup and changed to a LCR .38. That being said everyone has to make their on decision on what works for them. I still carry my .380 when it's the only gun I can carry.
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Old 05-04-2013, 14:18   #31
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The odds of using your trauma kit aren't that great so why not just carry a box of band-aids instead?
I do carry band-aids. because that something I use on a regular basis. When I used to solo pack into wild areas I carried a good first aid kit. But no I don't carry a trauma kit because the odds of me needing one are not that great.
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Old 05-04-2013, 19:01   #32
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IMO, those who rely on compact .380's as a primary SD pistol are ill-informed about its marginal stopping ability. Such pistols are prone to malfunctioning at the exact time that 100% reliability is needed.

Such individuals are not serious CCW'ers and only carry because it makes them feel "safe" and don't want to dress appropriately in order to carry a pistol chambered in a service caliber of 9x19mm or above. They carry out of convenience and nothing more.

As to some comments made about ".380+P" loads: news flash, there is no such thing. Ammo companies that make such ammo is perpetuating a dangerous fraud. It's only a matter of time until some fool buys such ammo and seriously hurts themselves when they blow up their older pistols or some pot-metal Lorcin, Raven or Davis Industries pistol.

There are plenty of sub-compact pistols chambered in 9mm and above. There is really no need to rely on the .380 for concealed carry. If you're serious about SD then use a handgun chambered in a serious SD caliber.
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Old 05-04-2013, 21:05   #33
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If anyone decides to carry a .380ACP for self-defense then consider loading only FMJ ammo to ensure adequate penetration.

With only a bit more size a 9mm will suffice that gives you a far greater range of JHP self-defense ammos to choose from. The 9mm delivers 66% greater power than .380ACP and for close-in confrontations that's nothing to overlook.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:42   #34
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Originally Posted by robhic View Post
Well, maybe there are a couple:


Second, if you must carry a 380 (and some just might...) look at Buffalo Bore 100gr Hard Cast lead flat nose +P ammo. 24" penetration!!! Not cheap, I believe it was $26 for 20 rounds. But it is hot! (for a 380...)

Or BB 95gr +P HP which will give you 12-13" penetration. Same pricing.
Do you think they are safe to shoot out of an LCP? It is my understanding that 380+p is not for polymer pistols and performs much better out of steel framed guns. I don't plan on shooting the rounds unless they are absolutely needed, just want to make sure that if I was to have to grab THIS gun then I have the most punch available.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:45   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steven07 View Post
Do you think they are safe to shoot out of an LCP? It is my understanding that 380+p is not for polymer pistols and performs much better out of steel framed guns. I don't plan on shooting the rounds unless they are absolutely needed, just want to make sure that if I was to have to grab THIS gun then I have the most punch available.
I have them in my LCP now... I've only fired a few rounds to test function. Good to go.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:15   #36
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The only pro about the 380 is the small guns they come in. Consider many of the micro 9mms available, IMO, no point it a 380 anymore. The blowback designs often make them more diff to shoot than a sim size 9mm firing a better bullet. Practice ammo cost more if you don't reload. In todays gun world, I just don't see the point.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:46   #37
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Do you think they are safe to shoot out of an LCP? It is my understanding that 380+p is not for polymer pistols and performs much better out of steel framed guns. I don't plan on shooting the rounds unless they are absolutely needed, just want to make sure that if I was to have to grab THIS gun then I have the most punch available.
I certainly wouldn't want to trust my life to firearm loaded with a round that is untested and unverified.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:04   #38
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I carry my Bodyguard 380 when I feel my G27 is a little much-golfing, fishing- I live in shorts during summer- its superslim, very small and superlightweight for front pocket carry. I feel the 380 round will do the job just fine- it will kill- period. Remember its an up close and personal weapon- not for target competition, most situations happen within 10 feet of space-not a friggen shootout at the OK Corral. LAPD issues 380's for a back-up gun in Gangland USA. Think about it- 223, 556 ammo in an M16 has killed ALOT of people over the years and its basically a .22 round suped up, I surely was'nt issued a 50 Cal in the "Sandbox" or my dad in Vietnam. Hornady 380 Critical Defense ammo is the way to go- check out this vid below.
I guess a foot of penetration through 4 layers of denim with full expansion is'nt enough for some people :rolleyes:
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:45   #39
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He's doing it wrong.

By definition the odds are already against you by the time the gun/caliber you are carrying becomes a factor. If you are going to play the odds, don't carry, because you will likeyl never need it. Or carry an unloaded gun or something with blanks, because you will almost surely never need to shoot somebody to protect yourself/another.

However, if you want something that gives you good odds of doing its job if and when the worse should happen, then you will need to consider the effectiveness of the firearm/cartridge you choose to carry.
Like I said carry what you want. But odds are you wont need your gun. I still carry, even if its a minimal caliber, just like I wear a seat belt and not a 3pt harness and a helmet. Look I have faced some dangerous situations in my life and survived, I guess that has made me not so scared of the big bad world. Its good to be prepared, but I know way to many people who let fear and paranoia rule there lives. Just my 2 cents
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:17   #40
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Like I said carry what you want. But odds are you wont need your gun. I still carry, even if its a minimal caliber, just like I wear a seat belt and not a 3pt harness and a helmet. Look I have faced some dangerous situations in my life and survived, I guess that has made me not so scared of the big bad world. Its good to be prepared, but I know way to many people who let fear and paranoia rule there lives. Just my 2 cents
Question: Have you ever worn a helmet or harness while driving a car?

I hear people throw this out there a lot, and so far the people doing so haven't had any idea what they were talking about.

* Helmets reduce visibility and your ability to hear. In a race car you generally aren't concerned with hearing anything unless it's through a headset you are wearing under the helmet (spotter/crew chief/whatever). Out on the road you are going to want to be able to hear other cars, horns, sirens of emergency vehicles, people's voices, etc. And visibility matters.

* One of the reasons passenger car seat belts are normally loose, and the tensioners only lock the belt up when the car senses the potential need (higher G forces from braking, turning, an impact, whatever) is that it is important to be able to lean forward, sideways, etc, so that you can look around when necessary.

All of that might very well make you less safe by increasing your chances of being involved in an accident, and might make other people less safe by increasing the chances that you run into them or pull out in front of them.



Driving on public roads and driving on a race track are two entirely different things
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