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Old 05-04-2013, 12:13   #26
countrygun
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Originally Posted by fg17 View Post
Maybe, but I will take my chances. Besides I do have some faith in the .380 cartridge. Lets face it the odds of using your gun in self defense are slim. A lot of people live in a fantasy world and if they want to carry a big gun, 3 mags, rifle or shot gun in the trunk, vest and a trauma kit more power them. Lets be honest car accidents, cancer and heart disease are the real killers, but that's not as much fun to think about. Not to say a person should not be prepared and every ones situation is different. As a lifelong martial artist self defense is always on my mind but I try to keep things in perspective.

The odds of using your trauma kit aren't that great so why not just carry a box of band-aids instead?
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:30   #27
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Odds. He's talking about odds, and he's right.
He's doing it wrong.

By definition the odds are already against you by the time the gun/caliber you are carrying becomes a factor. If you are going to play the odds, don't carry, because you will likeyl never need it. Or carry an unloaded gun or something with blanks, because you will almost surely never need to shoot somebody to protect yourself/another.

However, if you want something that gives you good odds of doing its job if and when the worse should happen, then you will need to consider the effectiveness of the firearm/cartridge you choose to carry.
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Old 05-04-2013, 13:42   #28
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I have been doing a lot of reading over the last past week on the 380 cartridge and have really developed some mixed feelings about it. Some say it has enough stopping power to resolve a situation and others claim that it has been proven not to even pass through heavy clothing. What are your views on the cartridge?
I've read that LAPD approves
Hornady Critical Defense .380 caliber, 90 grain load for back up guns.

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Old 05-04-2013, 14:02   #29
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Well, maybe there are a couple:

Number 1 -- read and re-read what Canyon Man says! (And how are you, my friend?) he knows of which he speaks.

Second, if you must carry a 380 (and some just might...) look at Buffalo Bore 100gr Hard Cast lead flat nose +P ammo. 24" penetration!!! Not cheap, I believe it was $26 for 20 rounds. But it is hot! (for a 380...)

Or BB 95gr +P HP which will give you 12-13" penetration. Same pricing.

Wouldn't use it (couldn't afford to!) all the time. It would beat hell outta the gun but for SD in a pinch I'd say your odds just increased a smidge.
I think Buffalo Bore is the "magic bullet" for the LCP.
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Old 05-04-2013, 14:14   #30
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I have spoke to several people like Ken Hackathorn and Paul Gomez about this as well as reading DOCGKR's thoughts on the .380 and they all agree. For defensive carry 9mm is the smallest caliber that they recommend. There is no .380 round that passes the FBI gel test for penetration. It beats not having a gun but they don't consider it adequate for self-defense even as a backup. I witnessed a gel block test several years ago and saw it for myself. I quit using my LCP as a backup and changed to a LCR .38. That being said everyone has to make their on decision on what works for them. I still carry my .380 when it's the only gun I can carry.
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Old 05-04-2013, 14:18   #31
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The odds of using your trauma kit aren't that great so why not just carry a box of band-aids instead?
I do carry band-aids. because that something I use on a regular basis. When I used to solo pack into wild areas I carried a good first aid kit. But no I don't carry a trauma kit because the odds of me needing one are not that great.
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Old 05-04-2013, 19:01   #32
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IMO, those who rely on compact .380's as a primary SD pistol are ill-informed about its marginal stopping ability. Such pistols are prone to malfunctioning at the exact time that 100% reliability is needed.

Such individuals are not serious CCW'ers and only carry because it makes them feel "safe" and don't want to dress appropriately in order to carry a pistol chambered in a service caliber of 9x19mm or above. They carry out of convenience and nothing more.

As to some comments made about ".380+P" loads: news flash, there is no such thing. Ammo companies that make such ammo is perpetuating a dangerous fraud. It's only a matter of time until some fool buys such ammo and seriously hurts themselves when they blow up their older pistols or some pot-metal Lorcin, Raven or Davis Industries pistol.

There are plenty of sub-compact pistols chambered in 9mm and above. There is really no need to rely on the .380 for concealed carry. If you're serious about SD then use a handgun chambered in a serious SD caliber.
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Old 05-04-2013, 21:05   #33
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If anyone decides to carry a .380ACP for self-defense then consider loading only FMJ ammo to ensure adequate penetration.

With only a bit more size a 9mm will suffice that gives you a far greater range of JHP self-defense ammos to choose from. The 9mm delivers 66% greater power than .380ACP and for close-in confrontations that's nothing to overlook.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:42   #34
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Originally Posted by robhic View Post
Well, maybe there are a couple:


Second, if you must carry a 380 (and some just might...) look at Buffalo Bore 100gr Hard Cast lead flat nose +P ammo. 24" penetration!!! Not cheap, I believe it was $26 for 20 rounds. But it is hot! (for a 380...)

Or BB 95gr +P HP which will give you 12-13" penetration. Same pricing.
Do you think they are safe to shoot out of an LCP? It is my understanding that 380+p is not for polymer pistols and performs much better out of steel framed guns. I don't plan on shooting the rounds unless they are absolutely needed, just want to make sure that if I was to have to grab THIS gun then I have the most punch available.
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Old 05-05-2013, 08:45   #35
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Do you think they are safe to shoot out of an LCP? It is my understanding that 380+p is not for polymer pistols and performs much better out of steel framed guns. I don't plan on shooting the rounds unless they are absolutely needed, just want to make sure that if I was to have to grab THIS gun then I have the most punch available.
I have them in my LCP now... I've only fired a few rounds to test function. Good to go.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:15   #36
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The only pro about the 380 is the small guns they come in. Consider many of the micro 9mms available, IMO, no point it a 380 anymore. The blowback designs often make them more diff to shoot than a sim size 9mm firing a better bullet. Practice ammo cost more if you don't reload. In todays gun world, I just don't see the point.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:46   #37
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Do you think they are safe to shoot out of an LCP? It is my understanding that 380+p is not for polymer pistols and performs much better out of steel framed guns. I don't plan on shooting the rounds unless they are absolutely needed, just want to make sure that if I was to have to grab THIS gun then I have the most punch available.
I certainly wouldn't want to trust my life to firearm loaded with a round that is untested and unverified.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:04   #38
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I carry my Bodyguard 380 when I feel my G27 is a little much-golfing, fishing- I live in shorts during summer- its superslim, very small and superlightweight for front pocket carry. I feel the 380 round will do the job just fine- it will kill- period. Remember its an up close and personal weapon- not for target competition, most situations happen within 10 feet of space-not a friggen shootout at the OK Corral. LAPD issues 380's for a back-up gun in Gangland USA. Think about it- 223, 556 ammo in an M16 has killed ALOT of people over the years and its basically a .22 round suped up, I surely was'nt issued a 50 Cal in the "Sandbox" or my dad in Vietnam. Hornady 380 Critical Defense ammo is the way to go- check out this vid below.
I guess a foot of penetration through 4 layers of denim with full expansion is'nt enough for some people :rolleyes:
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:45   #39
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He's doing it wrong.

By definition the odds are already against you by the time the gun/caliber you are carrying becomes a factor. If you are going to play the odds, don't carry, because you will likeyl never need it. Or carry an unloaded gun or something with blanks, because you will almost surely never need to shoot somebody to protect yourself/another.

However, if you want something that gives you good odds of doing its job if and when the worse should happen, then you will need to consider the effectiveness of the firearm/cartridge you choose to carry.
Like I said carry what you want. But odds are you wont need your gun. I still carry, even if its a minimal caliber, just like I wear a seat belt and not a 3pt harness and a helmet. Look I have faced some dangerous situations in my life and survived, I guess that has made me not so scared of the big bad world. Its good to be prepared, but I know way to many people who let fear and paranoia rule there lives. Just my 2 cents
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:17   #40
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Like I said carry what you want. But odds are you wont need your gun. I still carry, even if its a minimal caliber, just like I wear a seat belt and not a 3pt harness and a helmet. Look I have faced some dangerous situations in my life and survived, I guess that has made me not so scared of the big bad world. Its good to be prepared, but I know way to many people who let fear and paranoia rule there lives. Just my 2 cents
Question: Have you ever worn a helmet or harness while driving a car?

I hear people throw this out there a lot, and so far the people doing so haven't had any idea what they were talking about.

* Helmets reduce visibility and your ability to hear. In a race car you generally aren't concerned with hearing anything unless it's through a headset you are wearing under the helmet (spotter/crew chief/whatever). Out on the road you are going to want to be able to hear other cars, horns, sirens of emergency vehicles, people's voices, etc. And visibility matters.

* One of the reasons passenger car seat belts are normally loose, and the tensioners only lock the belt up when the car senses the potential need (higher G forces from braking, turning, an impact, whatever) is that it is important to be able to lean forward, sideways, etc, so that you can look around when necessary.

All of that might very well make you less safe by increasing your chances of being involved in an accident, and might make other people less safe by increasing the chances that you run into them or pull out in front of them.



Driving on public roads and driving on a race track are two entirely different things
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:55   #41
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Pro: small pistol.

Con: its for girls.
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Old 05-05-2013, 13:07   #42
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Pro: small pistol.

Con: its for girls.
My summertime carry pistol is not an extension of my ***** like it is for some guys-kinda like my "short" neighbor who is like 5' tall and drives his huge Hummer to make up for his "short man syndrome" we all get a laugh in the allotment when he drives by-lol. Gotta go- my tampon needs changing!
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Old 05-05-2013, 13:36   #43
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Pro: small pistol.

Con: its for girls.
Sounds like you wouldn't mind taking a couple .380 slugs in the chest at 10'. Let us know how that works out for you.
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Old 05-05-2013, 13:40   #44
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Pro: small pistol.

Con: its for girls.
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Old 05-05-2013, 13:47   #45
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My summer pistol is not an extension of my ***** like it is for some guys-kinda like my "short" neighbor who is like 5' tall and drives his huge Hummer to make up for his "short man syndrome" we all get a laugh in the allotment when he drives by-lol. Gotta go- my tampon needs changing!
You need look no farther than his user title, which is a big johnson, to see where he's coming from. For anybody not aware, that's what that is. The 8 is the testicles, the D is the head, and the = are the shaft.


User title: 8========D

Such is the state of Glock talk.
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Old 05-05-2013, 13:51   #46
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Think about it- 223, 556 ammo in an M16 has killed ALOT of people over the years and its basically a .22 round suped up, I surely was'nt issued a 50 Cal in the "Sandbox" or my dad in Vietnam. I guess a foot of penetration through 4 layers of denim with full expansion is'nt enough for some people :rolleyes:
This shows a tremendous lack of understanding wound ballistics. FWIW, just because a LEA issues something doesn't mean much. If you need your BUG, you need it badly & a 380, IMO, just ain't getting it done. Again, shorts or not, there are micro 9mm that are easier to shoot & more effective.
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Old 05-05-2013, 13:55   #47
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carried big guns for a long time, then slowly started carrying less and less and then not at all. figured the odds of me needing a gun where pretty slim. Survived a lot of violent situations without a gun. Bought a ruger LCP 380 now I carry everywhere again.




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Old 05-05-2013, 13:56   #48
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Question: Have you ever worn a helmet or harness while driving a car?

I hear people throw this out there a lot, and so far the people doing so haven't had any idea what they were talking about.

* Helmets reduce visibility and your ability to hear. In a race car you generally aren't concerned with hearing anything unless it's through a headset you are wearing under the helmet (spotter/crew chief/whatever). Out on the road you are going to want to be able to hear other cars, horns, sirens of emergency vehicles, people's voices, etc. And visibility matters.

* One of the reasons passenger car seat belts are normally loose, and the tensioners only lock the belt up when the car senses the potential need (higher G forces from braking, turning, an impact, whatever) is that it is important to be able to lean forward, sideways, etc, so that you can look around when necessary.

All of that might very well make you less safe by increasing your chances of being involved in an accident, and might make other people less safe by increasing the chances that you run into them or pull out in front of them.



Driving on public roads and driving on a race track are two entirely different things
This seems way off topic, but think about the vulnerability of passengers in your vehicle.

Given the high risk of a traffic accident, don't your family members deserve the best protection money can buy? Are seat belts and air bags (the equivalent of carrying .380) enough in the event of a serious crash? Or should we spend extra bucks to provide head gear of some sort and/or seat harnesses (the equivalent of carrying something bigger than .380)?

Let the driver be vulnerable, if necessary, but protect the precious cargo with safety equipment commensurate with the risk.

How did I get to this side street, anyway?

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Old 05-05-2013, 14:02   #49
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This seems way off topic, but think about the vulnerability of passengers in your vehicle.

Given the high risk of a traffic accident, don't your family members deserve the best protection money can buy? Are seat belts and air bags (the equivalent of carrying .380) enough in the event of a serious crash? Or should we spend extra bucks to provide head gear of some sort and/or seat harnesses (the equivalent of carrying something bigger than .380)?

Let the driver be vulnerable, if necessary, but protect the precious cargo with safety equipment commensurate with the risk.

How did I get to this side street, anyway?
Show me the data, research, and real world results that demonstrate, without question, that these steps you are suggesting do what you claim.

I also disagree with your analogy, RE: What safety measures are the equivalent of carrying a .380...and it is not very accurate to lump all "airbags" in together. That's kind of like lumping all "handguns" into one category, IMO.

I might say that a driver and front seat passenger front airbag, and no others, is the equivalent to .380...and that a vehicle with 6 or 8 airbags, from the front and the side and the head curtain thing, for front and back seat passengers, is equivalent to carrying a an honest service caliber handgun.

Both of our vehicles have the full compliment of airbags.

Oh, and the SIZE of the vehicle matters, the small cars are never going to be as safe as the larger vehicles. Kinda like firearm/cartridge effectiveness.

Our primary vehicle weighs 5,700 pounds, and our secondary is, It hink, at least 4,400...but is set to be replaced by something 1,000 pounds heavier, as soon as we can afford it. Remember, those NHTSA safety star ratings are all relative to other vehicles in the same size category. A compact car that gets four stars is not as safe as a full size that gets 4 stars.

Also, I would argue that putting all of your passengers into a helmet and harness is far more of an inconvenience...and expense...than carrying a 9mm Luger instead of a .380

IMO we got down this side street because somebody threw out a half baked "analogy", that just plain isn't apt the way they claimed.
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Old 05-05-2013, 14:09   #50
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Show me the data, research, and real world results that demonstrate, without question, that these steps you are suggesting do what you claim.

I also disagree with your analogy, RE: What safety measures are the equivalent of carrying a .380...and it is not very accurate to lump all "airbags" in together. That's kind of like lumping all "handguns" into one category, IMO.

I might say that a driver and front seat passenger front airbag, and no others, is the equivalent to .380...and that a vehicle with 6 or 8 airbags, from the front and the side and the head curtain thing, for front and back seat passengers, is equivalent to carrying a an honest service caliber handgun.

Both of our vehicles have the full compliment of airbags.

Oh, and the SIZE of the vehicle matters, the small cars are never going to be as safe as the larger vehicles. Kinda like firearm/cartridge effectiveness.

Our primary vehicle weighs 5,700 pounds, and our secondary is, It hink, at least 4,400...but is set to be replaced by something 1,000 pounds heavier, as soon as we can afford it.



IMO we got down this side street because somebody threw out a half baked "analogy", that just plain isn't apt the way they claimed.
That's good enough for me. Thanks.
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