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Old 05-10-2013, 18:26   #251
Delmonte67
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Originally Posted by robhic View Post
I think we've finally beaten, or at least come close, to the duration of those "what's better, .45ACP or 10mm?" threads!

The 'which caliber' threads were pretty lengthy but this .380 thread seems to have taken on a life of its own! And it's been right entertaining!!!
Lol. Or the neverending G26 or G27? threads.
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Old 05-10-2013, 18:43   #252
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Alright, I will confess that about 75% of the time I carry my 27, about 20% of the time I carry a 1911 commander (.45 of course). The remaining small amount it's the LCP with BB 100 gr. hard cast.
Now, here's what I don't understand, scanning through BB's site I find that the best load for the .380 is almost 300 ft lbs. of energy. The 9mm has about 150 ish more ft. lbs. than the .380 and the .40 has about 100 more ft. Lbs. than the 9. The .38 was between the .380 and 9. Just averages of what I saw. Even if you can find wonder bullets in the 9 that compare to the .40 someone else can probably find another .40 that has more.
So, if hitting them so hard is the main reason the 9mm crowd won't carry the .380 why carry the 9 over the .40? Usually the same size pistol, about the same capacity, more umph...
And to add, if you really care that much about an extra 150 ft. Lbs. why not carry a G29?
This will probably open up a whole new debate... the data I find credible suggest that there is little difference in effectiveness between calibers (9mm - 45) as long as good loads are used to produce a long wound channel.

.380 JHPs have inconsistent performance, which is why I use BB +p hardcast 100gr on the very infrequent occasions I carry a .380.

Kinetic energy is not a good indicator of terminal performance.
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Old 05-10-2013, 18:52   #253
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This will probably open up a whole new debate... the data I find credible suggest that there is little difference in effectiveness between calibers (9mm - 45) as long as good loads are used to produce a long wound channel.

.380 JHPs have inconsistent performance, which is why I use BB +p hardcast 100gr on the very infrequent occasions I carry a .380.

Kinetic energy is not a good indicator of terminal performance.
I don't think you and I disagree. However I do like the idea that a larger diameter bullet gives me a better chance of nicking a vital.
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Old 05-10-2013, 19:27   #254
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I don't think you and I disagree. However I do like the idea that a larger diameter bullet gives me a better chance of nicking a vital.
Agreed. And I like the extra capacity of the 9mm. It's all a tradeoff.
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Old 05-10-2013, 20:03   #255
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Old 05-10-2013, 21:27   #256
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Agreed. And I like the extra capacity of the 9mm. It's all a tradeoff.
Agreed, it's all relative.


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Old 05-10-2013, 21:34   #257
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Oddly enough I'm carrying my p238 for the first time in a year. Had to rush out and didn't have time to grab a shirt that would cover a Glock.

I'll let you all know if I survive
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:02   #258
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I've seen that gel penetration picture before. It always amazes me to see just how close those calibers actually are. Difference of 1-2 inches -- which, agreed, can be a major point -- but so close to each other. Wow .....
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:29   #259
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Oddly enough I'm carrying my p238 for the first time in a year. Had to rush out and didn't have time to grab a shirt that would cover a Glock.

I'll let you all know if I survive
How do you like the P238 pistol? I like all the Sigs I have never shoot the P238
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:03   #260
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Originally Posted by robhic View Post
I've seen that gel penetration picture before. It always amazes me to see just how close those calibers actually are. Difference of 1-2 inches -- which, agreed, can be a major point -- but so close to each other. Wow .....
It is an eye opener to realise how close the rounds size up, trust me I looked at all the micro nines (still too big) and all the 380's for summer/shorts carry, and I felt the Bodyguard was by far the smallest/flattest and with Hornady Defense rounds-Im good.
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:49   #261
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Oddly enough I'm carrying my p238 for the first time in a year. Had to rush out and didn't have time to grab a shirt that would cover a Glock.

I'll let you all know if I survive
Consider 99.9% of us will never get into a gunfight, your odds are good. SO you carry a 380 because it makes you feel better. If you really felt you were in need of a gun, you would carry something else & dress accordingly. When I carry, I always think I will need it. It's why I practice & train @ a high level, why I carry a gun I can fight & survive with. What is the saying; "fail to plan, plan to fail"?
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:57   #262
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Consider 99.9% of us will never get into a gunfight, your odds are good. SO you carry a 380 because it makes you feel better. If you really felt you were in need of a gun, you would carry something else & dress accordingly. When I carry, I always think I will need it. It's why I practice & train @ a high level, why I carry a gun I can fight & survive with. What is the saying; "fail to plan, plan to fail"?
Train quite often, on my buddies property with steel targets- on the move. I carry my G27 80% of the time. But when I'm swinging a club- my BG is perfect, driving into the city- Glock
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:40   #263
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Train quite often, on my buddies property with steel targets- on the move. I carry my G27 80% of the time. But when I'm swinging a club- my BG is perfect, driving into the city- Glock
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a BG?
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:43   #264
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Excuse my ignorance, but what is a BG?
Bodyguard. 380
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:49   #265
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I've seen that gel penetration picture before. It always amazes me to see just how close those calibers actually are. Difference of 1-2 inches -- which, agreed, can be a major point -- but so close to each other. Wow .....
If penetration in gel were really the gold standard we might all switch to the .30 Tokarev.
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Old 05-11-2013, 13:46   #266
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I've seen that gel penetration picture before. It always amazes me to see just how close those calibers actually are. Difference of 1-2 inches -- which, agreed, can be a major point -- but so close to each other. Wow .....
Why is this so hard to understand? Bullets do not do damage just by making a bullet diameter hole of some length or other. They dissipate energy proportionally to the square of their instantaneous speed and their frontal area. That energy destroys or incapacitates tissue to the side of the bullet track. The kinetic energy has to go somewhere and so a hollow point bullet has a shorter penetration with a wider zone of damage than a FMJ with the same weight and velocity. If you use a FMJ .380 with less energy that a hollow point 9mm you can get much the same penetration but much less tissue damage from the .380.

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Old 05-11-2013, 15:44   #267
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Why is this so hard to understand? Bullets do not do damage just by making a bullet diameter hole of some length or other. They dissipate energy proportionally to the square of their instantaneous speed and their frontal area. That energy destroys or incapacitates tissue to the side of the bullet track. The kinetic energy has to go somewhere and so a hollow point bullet has a shorter penetration with a wider zone of damage than a FMJ with the same weight and velocity. If you use a FMJ .380 with less energy that a hollow point 9mm you can get much the same penetration but much less tissue damage from the .380.

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According to some, the stretch cavity is of no consequence in a handgun round because the tissue returns to it's original shape as soon as the bullet passes. Only the permanent cavity which is the diameter of the bullet matters.
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Old 05-11-2013, 16:05   #268
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Why is this so hard to understand? Bullets do not do damage just by making a bullet diameter hole of some length or other. They dissipate energy proportionally to the square of their instantaneous speed and their frontal area. That energy destroys or incapacitates tissue to the side of the bullet track. The kinetic energy has to go somewhere and so a hollow point bullet has a shorter penetration with a wider zone of damage than a FMJ with the same weight and velocity. If you use a FMJ .380 with less energy that a hollow point 9mm you can get much the same penetration but much less tissue damage from the .380.

English
Well, yes, but it's also been found that some of that conversion of energy goes into being shed as heat.

"Instantaneous speed"?

You are taking into consideration the difference between the speed at which the projectile impacts the target medium, and then the constant reduction in "speed" as the target medium acts upon the deforming projectile (presuming it's capable of deformation), right?

Then, the hugely variable influences that would have to be taken into consideration regarding the square centimeter by square centimeter nature & consistency of the target medium, and whether it would be affected similarly by the "energy dissipation" from one area within the medium to another, right?

I'd insert some "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon at this point if I could.

I understand how stretching of some tissues and organs may, or may not, result in significant wounding & injury, and even how some small degree of "shock" might be transmitted within & along bony structures (and might be more pronounced with greater momentum), as well as the role that fragmentation might play when it comes to severing elastic tissues before they can return to their "pre-wound" condition.

I've long accepted that some degree of an unknown mechanism was sometimes observable, and seemed to be involved, when it came to some wounding effects created by lighter weight bullet loads in some medium bore handguns (9mm +P+, .357 Magnum, etc), but that it also wasn't observed in some shootings, too.

We're talking about a .380 ACP, though, right?

While the gun and ammunition industry has once more given us yet another version of the .32 revolver cartridge which develops more velocity (.327 Federal Magnum), and this time one which runs up into the velocity range enjoyed by some of the pretty fast lightweight loads in .355 & .357 calibers (but also at pretty high pressures), this "instantaneous speed" argument might be better left to the hoped merits of the .327 FM.

Until we can get a 8-9 oz. plastic pocket pistol that is chambered for the .327 FM, and has a barrel long enough to take advantage of the cartridge ... and can be safely fired without damaging itself or the shooter ... we're probably stuck considering the merits of the venerable .380 using established loads that take advantage of existing bullet technologies.

The .380 is what it is ... and it's not a .38 Spl or a 9mm.

I never thought I'd own and carry another .380 after having sold off that Beretta M84 more than 25 years ago, but current pistol model development & offerings, combined with current ammunition development & offerings, considered within the context of the observed & reported successful usage of the diminutive caliber by both LE and private citizens has caused me to re-evaluate my thinking. Again.

I've decided that it does, indeed, have some merit as n occasional retirement CCW in a limited role.

It's NOT within the same category as my 9's, .40's, .45's, .44's or .357's (Magnum). Nor is it really comparable to the .38 Spl with the available +P loads using better bullet designs intended to offer a balanced compromise of penetration & expansion.

It is what it is ... and while it's never going to "be enough" for some folks, it's enjoying a resurgence of interest and some small measure of success among some users.

I'm still a bit conflicted, I suppose you could say.

Then again, my thinking has changed over the years, as I used to be one of those young men who thought that the ONLY worthwhile defensive handgun calibers were .357 magnum, .44 Magnum & .45 ACP. (And back then I thought the "best" .44 Mag load was the 180gr JHP, and the best .357's were the 140gr loads, followed by the 125gr loads.)
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Old 05-11-2013, 16:08   #269
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Not hard to understand at all- FMJ bullet penetrates further but doesn't expand- so less wound channel damage. JHP has expansion -causes more damage- less travel. Why isn't the 380 Hornady Defense Round I carry (or similar ones shown in vid below) with full expansion, a foot of penetration, with over 900 fps in a up close combat situation not be suitable for personal defense? No its not a 40 cal Jhp I normally carry- not close. 380 is close to 9mm in my opinion, I have tested Hornady 380 on everything from squash,concrete blocks, jugs, to thick wooden targets and the damage compared to 9mm is very similar (penetration- variable differences) IMO.
^ thick denim jacket, rib bone, about a foot of ballistic gel, awesome wound channel and expansion to about the size of a friggen quarter. Just a mere flesh wound-lol. Realistically you would have to be wearing Kevlar or be Superman to walk away from a few of these-centermass, let alone a headshot:rolleyes:
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Old 05-11-2013, 17:31   #270
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How do you like the P238 pistol? I like all the Sigs I have never shoot the P238
The p238 has a good balance of accuracy, speed, and size. I prefer my Glocks, but if I have to go light and small the p238 is what I use.
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Old 05-11-2013, 17:33   #271
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Consider 99.9% of us will never get into a gunfight, your odds are good. SO you carry a 380 because it makes you feel better. If you really felt you were in need of a gun, you would carry something else & dress accordingly. When I carry, I always think I will need it. It's why I practice & train @ a high level, why I carry a gun I can fight & survive with. What is the saying; "fail to plan, plan to fail"?
Yep, I'm still here. Just to clarify: I don't carry a gun because it makes me feel better. I am always ready to fight if necessary, and will use the tools and tactics available to me.
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Old 05-11-2013, 18:51   #272
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It's a chick gun.
Very few chicks I know would feel comfortable shooting a Kel-Tec sized .380. Anymore, I rarely carry smaller than 9mm. Lately, I've even considered buying a .40 cal. I'm too old to take a beating but I'd still like to get older.
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:10   #273
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Well, yes, but it's also been found that some of that conversion of energy goes into being shed as heat...

How is the bullet hot if it is air cooled? Good question:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/34...hen_fired.html
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:12   #274
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Very few chicks I know would feel comfortable shooting a Kel-Tec sized .380.
Yeah, those aren't exactly easy to shoot.
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Old 05-11-2013, 20:41   #275
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Yeah, those aren't exactly easy to shoot.
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