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Old 05-10-2013, 09:17   #226
fredj338
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muscogee;20279730]According to Fackler, the only reliable way to stop an attack with a handgun is to punch holes in the attacker and wait for him to bleed out. Therefore, according to Fackler, the most important thing a handgun round needs is the ability to completely penetrate the human body from any angle. A FMJ 380 will do that. The size of the wound channel is secondary. A hole with a .454 diameter will not let out much more blood than one that is .354. As has been pointed out, in a gunfight for your life you will not be able to hit your target with pinpoint accuracy so you shoot for COM and hope for the best.
With all due respect to Fackler, you can live a looooong time with a bunch of small holes poked in you. Invterview any prison guard about the stabbing victims in prison. So if you truely believe that, then why not a 22 w/ solids? Hope for the best? You make my point in red, exactly why a bigger hole is better than a smaller hole. You are NOT likely to get perfect hits on vitals, so the less than perfect hits better be telling. To deny this speaks volumes on anyones actual expereinece killing large animals. A smaller hole certainly allows less blood loss, longer fight & depending on your attackers weapon & distance you are certainly rolling the dice on the mousegun. There is a lot of non vital on a 6-4/250# man.

On top of that, throw in the vast majority of shooters just don't shoot them well. If you are 50% as good w/ the mousegun as a decent fighting size gun, at all SD distances, that would be pretty damn good. Most shooters are barely adequate with their primary gun, the mousegun, forgetaboutit.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:19   #227
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Originally Posted by English View Post
The very simple alternative conclusion is that Fackler was wrong. The evidence for that is that hits from a 9mm, 38 super or 357SIG (all 9mm caliber) do actually stop someone shooting at you with fewer hits than from a .380 (also 9mm caliber).

English
There's evidence to the contrary as well and evidence that the differences are minuscule. It seems to me that one shot stops are a matter of luck. You hit the right spot or you don't. If the bullet has enough energy to push through and damage the right spot the assailant breaks off the attack. Otherwise, the assailant continues the attack. That being the case, it seems that the more rounds one fires, the more likely one is to hit the right spot. It seem 13 rounds of .380 to COM would be more effective than 7 rounds of 9x19.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:20   #228
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Ok let me rephrase that... Terminal ballistics mean nothing in a real life situation.
So why not CC a CO2 powered BB gun then? Why waste the cash on expensive defensive ammo?
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:30   #229
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If I get the gist of your post you are saying that the ballistics of the .380 and the 9mm are the same at 25-35 feet and that you think you can zap someone with a headshot because you have a laser on the pistol, and further you think a headshot is the best choice

All really that simple in your mind, isn't it?
Well, technically, I do agree that a headshot is better as it has the best chance of ending the threat immediately. However, the odds of a headshot in a high stress situation would be more luck than skill for most people. I will tell you this, if I am ever in a SD situation (which just like everyone else, hope I never am) my aim is going to be at the most likely place for me to successfully hit my target which is the torso. The odds of a one hit stop are far less, but the odds of my shot hitting the target are exponentially better.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:41   #230
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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
So if you truely believe that, then why not a 22 w/ solids?
The 22 LR lacks the ability to completely penetrate the human body from any direction. From the shootings at Fort Hood, the 5.7x28 appears to be an adequate self defense round. The 5.56 is more than adequate.

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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
Hope for the best? You make my point in red, exactly why a bigger hole is better than a smaller hole. You are NOT likely to get perfect hits on vitals, so the less than perfect hits better be telling. To deny this speaks volumes on anyones actual expereinece killing large animals.
You kill large animals with a .380 and a 9x19? Do tell.

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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
A smaller hole certainly allows less blood loss, longer fight & depending on your attackers weapon & distance you are certainly rolling the dice on the mousegun. There is a lot of non vital on a 6-4/250# man.
A hole has length as well as width. The difference between a .354 hole and a .454 hole is minuscule. the difference between a 3 inch hole and one clear through the body is not. As for distance, if my attacker is more than 25 feet, he will have to hit a moving target. I'm not going to stand flat footed and shoot it out.

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Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
On top of that, throw in the vast majority of shooters just don't shoot them well. If you are 50% as good w/ the mousegun as a decent fighting size gun, at all SD distances, that would be pretty damn good. Most shooters are barely adequate with their primary gun, the mousegun, forgetaboutit.
Now you're comparing large guns with small ones. That's not the issue. Comparing handguns in identical platforms, the ones with less recoil will be easier to keep on target.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:23   #231
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Con - I would not want a .380 in a gunfight against a 45 ACP, .357 mag, or many other calibers, or I would not want to try and stop a 250lb biker coming at me with a ball peen hammer with a .380.

Pro - no advantage of a .380 outweighs the above, so I will never carry a .380.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:24   #232
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
So why not CC a CO2 powered BB gun then? Why waste the cash on expensive defensive ammo?
I may end up doing that, being that I'm already so under gunned the few times a year that I have to carry my LCP (according to you internet ninjas).
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:45   #233
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Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post
I may end up doing that, being that I'm already so under gunned the few times a year that I have to carry my LCP (according to you internet ninjas).
I actually carry my LCP whenever my clothing does not permit for something larger. As I stated before, I would take a .380 as opposed to nothing any day. My samurai sword does not conceal well, so I have to leave it at home.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:49   #234
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
I actually carry my LCP whenever my clothing does not permit for something larger. As I stated before, I would take a .380 as opposed to nothing any day. My samurai sword does not conceal well, so I have to leave it at home.
I hear ya!
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:57   #235
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I hear ya!
I misunderstood your post and went back and reread it. Please take my sarcasm with a grain of salt.

I do however believe that terminal balistics do matter in the real world. Considering all things being equal (clothing, persons size, shot placement, etc) your odds of stopping a threat sooner with a caliber other than .380 are higher. How much higher is debatable, but all things considered, I would rather something in a caliber other than .380 when possible. Do I think the .380 should be written off as useless for self defense? Of course not.

As I mentioned before, when my clothing doesn't permit me to conceal a larger pistol, the .380 leaves in my pocket.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:00   #236
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Originally Posted by Roger1079 View Post
I misunderstood your post and went back and reread it. Please take my sarcasm with a grain of salt.

I do however believe that terminal balistics do matter in the real world. Considering all things being equal (clothing, persons size, shot placement, etc) your odds of stopping a threat sooner with a caliber other than .380 are higher. How much higher is debatable, but all things considered, I would rather something in a caliber other than .380 when possible. Do I think the .380 should be written off as useless for self defense? Of course not.

As I mentioned before, when my clothing doesn't permit me to conceal a larger pistol, the .380 leaves in my pocket.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:53   #237
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Originally Posted by purrrfect 10 View Post
380 is just as good as a 9mm show me at 25 35 feet any difference. putting a lazer between the eyes better guess again.
Come shoot IDPA with me. You can use your .380 Mousegun, and I'll use my G19. We will see who is under gunned.

I'll even let you use your laser
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:34   #238
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
There's evidence to the contrary as well and evidence that the differences are minuscule. It seems to me that one shot stops are a matter of luck. You hit the right spot or you don't. If the bullet has enough energy to push through and damage the right spot the assailant breaks off the attack. Otherwise, the assailant continues the attack. That being the case, it seems that the more rounds one fires, the more likely one is to hit the right spot. It seem 13 rounds of .380 to COM would be more effective than 7 rounds of 9x19.
You run right against reality when you start tossing out theories.

A case in point.

In the early 1970s the Police Department in the City of San Francisco wanted adopt the .41 magnum cartridge. It became quite a subject of debate and even the ACLU became involved. Surprisingly the ACLU studied the matter up and came to support the move. Why? because they found that among possible options the .41 magnum police load was the most likely, available option, to stop a fight with one shot or the fewest possible and thereby actually increased the odds of survivability as opposed to the police NEEDING to fill the suspect full of a lot of smaller holes to achieve a stop.

Also, about the same time the City of San Antonio was using the same cartridge and achieved 12 consecutive one-shot stops.

The problem for both departments continuing was one of Affirmative Action and the difficulty in disqualifying candidates who could not pass standards with a large handgun and would have eventually ran into the autoloader trend anyway.

While the .41 is beyond the realm of a discussion about the .380, the theory being put forth by one poster is and has been demonstrably proven to be incorrect.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:45   #239
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
...if my attacker is more than 25 feet, he will have to hit a moving target. I'm not going to stand flat footed and shoot it out...

How do you know that if you've never been in that situation? Until one has been "there" then they have no Earthly idea what they will do. They can only theorize. Some people do indeed "vapor lock".
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:49   #240
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Come on, guys. Put this discussion in context. We're not talking about uniform service sidearms when we talk about the .380's.

The diminutive .380 has been successfully used in the role of LE secondary/backup and even as an off-duty weapon, remaining a viable choice for such situations. It's also worked for private citizen defensive roles upon occasion.

Optimal? Of course not. Better than being unarmed, or carrying a .22, .25 or .32? Uh, yeah, I'd think so.

Rather than denigrate the choices of others, or argue about the "superiority" of other handgun calibers, time might be better spent actually out on some agency or private range, training & practicing hard with whatever gun/caliber choice(s) you prefer to use, for whatever reasons.

Want to try IDPA with your full-size, compact or "mouse gun"? Give it a try. Do it "cold". See how your choice actually does for you. Re-evaluate as necessary.

Find some affordable (and safely supervised & operated) training venue and have yourself put through some demanding drills ... cold ... using your equipment choices.

Carrying the guitar around doesn't make someone an accomplished musician, right?

Yes, there's always going to be better choices in the way of equipment (guns, holsters, caliber & ammunition).

It's the equipment user that may make the critical difference, though.

I've seen my fair share of guys & gals come through qual & training ranges who used a lot of different handguns for duty, off-duty, secondary/backup & CCW roles.

Some were barely competent with their chosen equipment. Others were great.

Some were skilled, fast, accurate and motivated. Others were only there because it was required in order for them to be armed.

Some only did well with larger handguns, some with pistols instead of revolvers (and vice versa), some with one caliber but not so much with others ... and some were highly skilled and capable even when using the smaller "pocket pistols".

Some with firearms experience from hunting pursuits were great, and some not so much.

Some with military experience were great, and some not so much.

I stopped worrying about what other folks chose to carry (or were required to carry) a long time ago.

I make my own decisions, based upon my own training, experience ... and where permitted, my own preference. Informed risk assessment and decision-making, considered within whatever situation context I feel is appropriate at one time or another.

When I'm armed, I'm not carrying a handgun as a rabbit's foot or talisman.

Suit yourselves. Hopefully, for the right reasons.

Train & practice. Change your equipment choices as you feel warranted. Expand them or narrow them down. It has to work for you.

And yes, we all ought to probably remember that with all decisions and choices comes the potential for consequences.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:53   #241
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Old 05-10-2013, 14:55   #242
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Come shoot IDPA with me. You can use your .380 Mousegun, and I'll use my G19. We will see who is under gunned.

I'll even let you use your laser
I agree with your point. Disregarding ballistics, the .380 pistols I have shot were not pistols I'd want defend myself with. That said I'd rather have the .380 than a pack of chewing gum (but it is close )
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Old 05-10-2013, 15:30   #243
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
The 22 LR lacks the ability to completely penetrate the human body from any direction. From the shootings at Fort Hood, the 5.7x28 appears to be an adequate self defense round. The 5.56 is more than adequate.

You kill large animals with a .380 and a 9x19? Do tell.

A hole has length as well as width. The difference between a .354 hole and a .454 hole is minuscule. the difference between a 3 inch hole and one clear through the body is not. As for distance, if my attacker is more than 25 feet, he will have to hit a moving target. I'm not going to stand flat footed and shoot it out.



Now you're comparing large guns with small ones. That's not the issue. Comparing handguns in identical platforms, the ones with less recoil will be easier to keep on target.
Never mind, you have your choice, it just isn't mine. You still don't get it. A 22lr is not a 5.56, a 380 w/ FMJ is punching small, self sealing holes, think large ice pick. Not even a close 4th or 5th, but again, your choice.
FWIW, my point on big game hunting, regardless of caliber, you shoot enough things, you understand wound ballistics better. Small holes mean less blood loss, the animal runs further. Bigger holes, faster blood loss, the animal drops sooner. Pretty simple stuff. I still want you to go shoot even one IDPA stage w/ your mouse gun, get back to me. I shoot BUG matches on occasion, it's humbling & I am a better than avg shooting Expert w/ my 1911.
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Old 05-10-2013, 15:56   #244
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FWIW, my point on big game hunting, regardless of caliber, you shoot enough things, you understand wound ballistics better. Small holes mean less blood loss, the animal runs further. Bigger holes, faster blood loss, the animal drops sooner. Pretty simple stuff. I still want you to go shoot even one IDPA stage w/ your mouse gun, get back to me. I shoot BUG matches on occasion, it's humbling & I am a better than avg shooting Expert w/ my 1911.
I agree with you. I think I saw a posted that dismissed the experience you get shooting IDPA. I don't think that is correct. Shooting IDPA you learn how to efficiently get your pistol to combat ready, that is condition 1, gun drawn, sights on target (with out shooting yourself or some you didn't intend to). The first five matches I shot were funny. All the dumb things that can go wrong, did go wrong. You learn to avoid or cope with them. I don't think IDPA makes gun fighters. I do think it makes people who can defend themselves better than they could before they started by a great margin

Edit and no matter how well you shoot the NMC, nothing has prepared you for shooting while you are moving. Nothing will except doing it
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Old 05-10-2013, 16:41   #245
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It is worth thinking about blood loss as a means of incapacitation. According to the FBI, a fit determined man can have his heart shot out and continue to function at a lethal level for a good number of seconds. Some say it is 10 to 15 seconds and some say it is 15 to 30 seconds. Whatever the actual figure, bleed out to incapacitation from ordinary bullet wounds to the thorax are going to take longer than that and usually they will take much longer than that.

So the 12 consecutive one shot stops with the .41 magnum in San Antonio mentioned by countrygun didn't happen by bleed out but by some other process that was never accepted by Dr. Fackler. .380s don't do that! Bleed out is fine for hunting because it just means you might have to walk a few hundred yards. When someone is shooting at you, you don't have time to wait.

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Old 05-10-2013, 17:04   #246
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I think we've finally beaten, or at least come close, to the duration of those "what's better, .45ACP or 10mm?" threads!

The 'which caliber' threads were pretty lengthy but this .380 thread seems to have taken on a life of its own! And it's been right entertaining!!!
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Old 05-10-2013, 17:12   #247
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I agree with you. I think I saw a posted that dismissed the experience you get shooting IDPA. I don't think that is correct. Shooting IDPA you learn how to efficiently get your pistol to combat ready, that is condition 1, gun drawn, sights on target (with out shooting yourself or some you didn't intend to). The first five matches I shot were funny. All the dumb things that can go wrong, did go wrong. You learn to avoid or cope with them. I don't think IDPA makes gun fighters. I do think it makes people who can defend themselves better than they could before they started by a great margin

Edit and no matter how well you shoot the NMC, nothing has prepared you for shooting while you are moving. Nothing will except doing it
Correct. No, IDPA is not going to make you a gunfighter, it is NOT training. Surprisingly, neither is carrying a badge or wearing a uniform. What IDPA is, is good practice, to be able to put into use the training that you should have PRIOR to carrying a gun, either LE or civi. You will handle your gun more in one 8stg match than most handle their guns in a year. You will be required to shoot from odd positions, while moving, clear malfunctions, reload, etc. Stuff you can not or will not do on a flat range shooting tiny groups.
Why I laugh at all the bluster of the magic headshot. Yep, pretty easy to deliver that headshot on a stationary target, while you are standing still & in good light, no pressure. Now add movement, bad light, the target moving, a little stress, yeah, get back to me. I see high level Masters miss @ 7yds w/ tuned, full size service guns & the arm chair guys are gonna do it w/ their mousegun, uh, yeah right.
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Old 05-10-2013, 18:06   #248
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I like BUG stages at IDPA matches: close range, limited round count, and small guns--and very different scenarios than a typical stage. I always use my G26 because that's what I carry often. Other folks bring all sorts of back up guns, and I've seen some with little .380s do quite well.
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Old 05-10-2013, 18:12   #249
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Alright, I will confess that about 75% of the time I carry my 27, about 20% of the time I carry a 1911 commander (.45 of course). The remaining small amount it's the LCP with BB 100 gr. hard cast.
Now, here's what I don't understand, scanning through BB's site I find that the best load for the .380 is almost 300 ft lbs. of energy. The 9mm has about 150 ish more ft. lbs. than the .380 and the .40 has about 100 more ft. Lbs. than the 9. The .38 was between the .380 and 9. Just averages of what I saw. Even if you can find wonder bullets in the 9 that compare to the .40 someone else can probably find another .40 that has more.
So, if hitting them so hard is the main reason the 9mm crowd won't carry the .380 why carry the 9 over the .40? Usually the same size pistol, about the same capacity, more umph...
And to add, if you really care that much about an extra 150 ft. Lbs. why not carry a G29?
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Old 05-10-2013, 18:22   #250
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Alright, I will confess that about 75% of the time I carry my 27, about 20% of the time I carry a 1911 commander (.45 of course). The remaining small amount it's the LCP with BB 100 gr. hard cast.
Now, here's what I don't understand, scanning through BB's site I find that the best load for the .380 is almost 300 ft lbs. of energy. The 9mm has about 150 ish more ft. lbs. than the .380 and the .40 has about 100 more ft. Lbs. than the 9. The .38 was between the .380 and 9. Just averages of what I saw. Even if you can find wonder bullets in the 9 that compare to the .40 someone else can probably find another .40 that has more.
So, if hitting them so hard is the main reason the 9mm crowd won't carry the .380 why carry the 9 over the .40? Usually the same size pistol, about the same capacity, more umph...
And to add, if you really care that much about an extra 150 ft. Lbs. why not carry a G29?
There are only a few single-stack .40 caliber "mouse guns" and controllability becomes an issue. That is why.
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