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Old 05-08-2013, 09:25   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
... But they didn't - they LET HIM KEEP A COPY THAT HE SOLD TO LIFE MAGAZINE! ...
Zapruder gave the secret service TWO COPIES of the film and did not tell them how many copies were in existence.

LIFE even deleted a crucial part of the film, which was able to be repaired later, due to there being at LEAST three copies made prior.
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Old 05-08-2013, 09:31   #177
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This magic bullet, so different and so new
Was like any other until I shot you
And then it happened, it took me by surprise
I knew that you felt it too, by the look in your eyes

Apologies to The Drifters

Regards,
Happyguy
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:00   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Zapruder gave the secret service TWO COPIES of the film and did not tell them how many copies were in existence.

LIFE even deleted a crucial part of the film, which was able to be repaired later, due to there being at LEAST three copies made prior.
IIRC, they brought HIM to the Kodak lab to get it developed and then "he gave" them 2 copies. You don't think they could have just given him the 58c for the film and told him to scram and to shut up or they'll have him wiped out????

I could be wrong. But, again, would not a conspiracy try to contain this instead of letting the guy keep it? National security, yada yada?
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:06   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
IIRC, they brought HIM to the Kodak lab to get it developed and then "he gave" them 2 copies. You don't think they could have just given him the 58c for the film and told him to scram and to shut up or they'll have him wiped out????

I could be wrong. But, again, would not a conspiracy try to contain this instead of letting the guy keep it? National security, yada yada?
Well, sure, they let him keep one version of the film...

The Greys had advanced Photoshop capabilities way back before they cloned Dennis Rodman.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:22   #180
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
IIRC, they brought HIM to the Kodak lab to get it developed and then "he gave" them 2 copies. You don't think they could have just given him the 58c for the film and told him to scram and to shut up or they'll have him wiped out????

I could be wrong. But, again, would not a conspiracy try to contain this instead of letting the guy keep it? National security, yada yada?
Kewl beans, lets give you the premise of NO Zapruder film.

Now how do you explain the #'s 4 & 5 shots to the windshield frame and through the front windshield? Or, do you think you even need an explanation lacking the film's "eyewitness account?" (NOTE: The Police channel recording is still part of the public record... )

ETA:
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:25   #181
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Well, sure, they let him keep one version of the film...

The Greys had advanced Photoshop capabilities way back before they cloned Dennis Rodman.
Dennis Rodman is a one time event. He is also the reason the Bulls won that Championship back near the mid to late 90's.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:30   #182
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No Zapruder film, all of that is explained away. They could say that he got off 12 shots if they wanted. There is no need to prove anything. It goes away long before the Warren Commission starts it's investigation.

Again - eyewitness accounts are terrible evidence. People are not video recorders. Minds have feelings and emotions recording, not facts. 1 bullet hole in the car. 122 bullet holes in the car. Piece of cake.

This is like the original Terminator. You are either right and are from the future or you've constructed an elaborate game to ensure you cannot be wrong. LOL
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:32   #183
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
No Zapruder film, all of that is explained away. They could say that he got off 12 shots if they wanted. There is no need to prove anything. It goes away long before the Warren Commission starts it's investigation.

Again - eyewitness accounts are terrible evidence. People are not video recorders. Minds have feelings and emotions recording, not facts. 1 bullet hole in the car. 122 bullet holes in the car. Piece of cake.

This is like the original Terminator. You are either right and are from the future or you've constructed an elaborate game to ensure you cannot be wrong. LOL
I bet your the winner at all the dance contest near home, but any chance you'll actually address what I put to you?
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Old 05-08-2013, 14:09   #184
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Originally Posted by Dennis in MA View Post
You are making my point for me.

It would have been mega-easy in 1963 to just confiscate Zapruder's film and not release it. Or release a bunged up copy or a blanked out copy. Forget Murrah Bldg - think Watergate Tapes.

But they didn't - they LET HIM KEEP A COPY THAT HE SOLD TO LIFE MAGAZINE!

The government goes through the trouble of

A) shooting the president

B) obfuscating 1-3 other shooters

C) setting up Oswald with the cop minutes later

D) having Oswald gunned down on live TV to silence him forever

But forgets to hide/confiscate the one piece of evidence that gives the crazies a field-day?

Eyewitness testimony is faulty, at best. AT BEST. Read The Invisible Gorilla. All the eyewitness "I heard/saw/felt" stuff can be set aside.

The one piece of "hard" evidence still remains. Go figure that it is the central point of all conspiracy theories.
I'm surprised you can't understand this. You can only imagine a one man show or an all powerful, all inclusive "the government" conspiracy? You can't imagine a group of people with the ability to plan to kill the guy, frame another guy for it, but without the power to control everything that might happen after the fact, or every piece of evidence?

It could have been anything. There were lots of people who wanted him dead, and lots of people who benefited greatly afterward, and lots of weirdness around the event itself. Who knows.
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Old 05-08-2013, 14:25   #185
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I'm confused as to how this would support a conspiracy theory.
I had just read several posts about "the government" not being able to keep secrets, which is ridiculous. I posted that as an example of an almost unbelievable plan at the highest levels of the government, including the very highest authorities of each branch of the military and the POTUS himself- that was kept secret for more than 30 years.

But since you asked, that particular secret might have something to do with the assassination too. That link is an example of Kennedy stymying the Joint Chiefs/the military/whoever elses' efforts to create a war with Cuba, as well as Vietnam and whatever else.

Maybe some group of them got reallly frustrated with dealing with him and decided he needed to be removed- who knows, maybe they thought it was for the sake of national security. Maybe they didn't give a damn who filmed it, as long as it got done. Or maybe it was the lone gunman and no conspiracy at all. Who knows.
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Old 05-08-2013, 14:33   #186
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Originally Posted by Stubudd View Post
I had just read several posts about "the government" not being able to keep secrets, which is ridiculous. I posted that as an example of an almost unbelievable plan at the highest levels of the government, including the very highest authorities of each branch of the military and the POTUS himself- that was kept secret for more than 30 years.

But since you asked, that particular secret might have something to do with the assassination too. That link is an example of Kennedy stymying the Joint Chiefs/the military/whoever elses' efforts to create a war with Cuba, as well as Vietnam and whatever else.

Maybe some group of them got reallly frustrated with dealing with him and decided he needed to be removed- who knows, maybe they thought it was for the sake of national security. Maybe they didn't give a damn who filmed it, as long as it got done. Or maybe it was the lone gunman and no conspiracy at all. Who knows.
"Maybe" airplanes poop contrails when they eat.
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Old 05-08-2013, 17:08   #187
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No, I didn't miss it. In fact, I was agreeing with you. But the strangely long paragraph that you wrote, giving all of the details of the Marine Corps basic rifle qual, really seems to be an attempt to make it more than it is.
Sorry for the confusion. I reposted this from the "JFK" board where I had responded to this issue in the past. It cracks me up because just like the rest of the conspiracy BS, this issue too ends up being obfuscated. Either you read there's no way he ever could have done it because he either lacked the ability ("he only qualified Marksman on his last qual" or better yet from "JFK", Walter Matthau's "maggie's drawers" line) or it was too difficult of a shot for anyone. What I was trying to show was that he had demonstrated basic rifle skills and they were close shots with a scope with an almost static sight picture that easily should have been within his ability.
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Old 05-08-2013, 17:20   #188
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For me, for over 40+ years, I cannot get past the back and to the left motion of the head, I see no plausible way for this to happen coming from the rear.

I also do not believe the shooters lived through the afternoon. Where was the SS? Why all the open windows, change in parade route, body removed from Dallas where legally, the autopsy should have been performed.

On the other hand I have also always wondered why, if there were a conspiracy, that none of the surviving Kennedy's took it upon themselves to insist on clearing it up especially since Robert Kennedy was the Attorney General at the time?

"Splain mi dis Lucy?"

Seeing how DC and our government is made up of self serving people with very little in the way of integrity, why should we expect anything greater?
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Old 05-08-2013, 17:58   #189
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For me, for over 40+ years, I cannot get past the back and to the left motion of the head, I see no plausible way for this to happen coming from the rear.
Look at a slow-mo view of Zapruder. You'll see his head goes forward a couple of inches when he's shot from behind. That's what a head does when it's shot. Do the physics. People do not get blown away like is portrayed by Hollywood.

The flinging backward is a primitive neural response seen when your CPU gets knocked out. You can actually see a similar response to all kinds of insults to the brain like massive stroke, sepsis, etc. Basically it is a sudden contraction of truncal extensor muscles, akin to opisthotonos. The Okie Corral
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Old 05-08-2013, 18:53   #190
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This doesn't look like a "through and through" bullet hole to me.

http://JFK windshield FBI photo
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Old 05-08-2013, 19:29   #191
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This doesn't look like a "through and through" bullet hole to me.

http://JFK windshield FBI photo
That's definitively not a bullet hole.
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Old 05-08-2013, 19:33   #192
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Look at a slow-mo view of Zapruder. You'll see his head goes forward a couple of inches when he's shot from behind. That's what a head does when it's shot. Do the physics. People do not get blown away like is portrayed by Hollywood.

The flinging backward is a primitive neural response seen when your CPU gets knocked out. You can actually see a similar response to all kinds of insults to the brain like massive stroke, sepsis, etc. Basically it is a sudden contraction of truncal extensor muscles, akin to opisthotonos. The Okie Corral
Decelebrate or decorticate posturing is indicative of brain injury.

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Old 05-08-2013, 19:34   #193
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But I do believe there was a second gunman.
Eta spelling

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Old 05-08-2013, 19:41   #194
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You should read Stephen Hunter's latest novel . "The Third Bullet" It basically tells how there was a rogue CIA team in Dallas to kill General Edwin Walker, and when they found that Kennedy was going to be in Dallas, they switched targets. They has taken a Win 264 mag case and put a 6.5 Carcano bullet into
the case. They modified the bullet so it would explode after penetrating the cranial vault. Remember the 6.5 mm Carcano bullet was a military round designed to penetrate heavy clothing in a mountain environment. All being said the novel is fantastic.
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Old 05-08-2013, 20:09   #195
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The magic bullet did just what a long, heavy, solid bullet at moderate velocity does, it plows through making a little hole and penetrating very deeply, hunters in Africa can wound/kill game on the far side of the animal they shoot when using solids.

Now, the 3rd shot, also from the carcano, shooting a long, slow, heavy, solid (non expanding bullet) blows a big piece of Kennedy's head onto the back of the car. Jackie gets up, crawls onto the trunk, and picks up a piece of his scull. Some people say Jackie was trying to get out of the car and the secret service agent got her back in.....watch her hands.

Why didn't that 3rd shot just plow through with an exit hole matching the entrance hole, like Kennedy's throat wound? Lots of African game animals shot with solids...their heads don't explode.

The 3rd bullet is the magic one.

Why did Oswald take the 1st shot when the car was behind the trees? A sure miss as he couldn't see the target. Why didn't he take the easy kill shot when the car was making the turn directly under him? Did he leave the safety on accidentally, as some suggest? Dummy forgets the safety is on, then rushes the 1st shot, then calms down and makes 2 good shots. Oswald did not once in his life ever "calm down" when the going got tough, he had a long history of failure.

Oswald shot better as the car got farther away, gained speed, and the angles changed.

Oswald trained on the Garand, but he worked that bolt action like a Gunsite 270 graduate. There was a round in the chamber when the gun was found, so Oswald racked the bolt after the 3rd shot, like Gunsite grads are taught, but he was not taught that method of shooting in the Marines.

Why did Oswald leave his pistol at home? After killing Kennedy he didn't get out of town he went home and picked up his pistol.

I have read multiple reports that the scope was loose. How do you shoot better as the car gets farther away with a loose scope?

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Old 05-08-2013, 20:41   #196
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Decelebrate or decorticate posturing is indicative of brain injury.

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LOL! I assume you meant decerebrate posturing and indeed, that's what we see.

This is decorticate posturing:The Okie Corral

While not exactly the case, something akin to decorticate posturing is what happens after the 2nd or neck shot when we see JFK's hands come up to his neck (extreme flexion). My interpretation is this is an example of SCIWORA (spinal cord injury without evidence of radiologic abnormality) due to the pressure wave of the neck shot on his cervical spinal cord.
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Old 05-08-2013, 20:54   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in MI View Post
The magic bullet did just what a long, heavy, solid bullet at moderate velocity does, it plows through making a little hole and penetrating very deeply, hunters in Africa can wound/kill game on the far side of the animal they shoot when using solids.

Now, the 3rd shot, also from the carcano, shooting a long, slow, heavy, solid (non expanding bullet) blows a big piece of Kennedy's head onto the back of the car. Jackie gets up, crawls onto the trunk, and picks up a piece of his scull. Some people say Jackie was trying to get out of the car and the secret service agent got her back in.....watch her hands.

Why didn't that 3rd shot just plow through with an exit hole matching the entrance hole, like Kennedy's throat wound? Lots of African game animals shot with solids...their heads don't explode.

The 3rd bullet is the magic one.

Why did Oswald take the 1st shot when the car was behind the trees? A sure miss as he couldn't see the target. Why didn't he take the easy kill shot when the car was making the turn directly under him? Did he leave the safety on accidentally, as some suggest? Dummy forgets the safety is on, then rushes the 1st shot, then calms down and makes 2 good shots. Oswald did not once in his life ever "calm down" when the going got tough, he had a long history of failure.

Oswald shot better as the car got farther away, gained speed, and the angles changed.

Oswald trained on the Garand, but he worked that bolt action like a Gunsite 270 graduate. There was a round in the chamber when the gun was found, so Oswald racked the bolt after the 3rd shot, like Gunsite grads are taught, but he was not taught that method of shooting in the Marines.

Why did Oswald leave his pistol at home? After killing Kennedy he didn't get out of town he went home and picked up his pistol.

I have read multiple reports that the scope was loose. How do you shoot better as the car gets farther away with a loose scope?

Animal heads, and human heads, aren't exactly alike.



Human heads don't typically stay together well when they take a high velocity penetration.
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Old 05-08-2013, 21:05   #198
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LOL! I assume you meant decerebrate posturing and indeed, that's what we see.

This is decorticate posturing:The Okie Corral

While not exactly the case, something akin to decorticate posturing is what happens after the 2nd or neck shot when we see JFK's hands come up to his neck (extreme flexion). My interpretation is this is an example of SCIWORA (spinal cord injury without evidence of radiologic abnormality) due to the pressure wave of the neck shot on his cervical spinal cord.
Yes, sorry my spelling skills weren't up to snuff. I had my angel wings mixed up after a few bourbons. In or out flexion is not good in any case


its still not good

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Old 05-08-2013, 21:05   #199
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The magic bullet did just what a long, heavy, solid bullet at moderate velocity does, it plows through making a little hole and penetrating very deeply, hunters in Africa can wound/kill game on the far side of the animal they shoot when using solids.
Agreed.

Quote:
Now, the 3rd shot, also from the carcano, shooting a long, slow, heavy, solid (non expanding bullet) blows a big piece of Kennedy's head onto the back of the car. Jackie gets up, crawls onto the trunk, and picks up a piece of his scull. Some people say Jackie was trying to get out of the car and the secret service agent got her back in.....watch her hands.
Good description. Interestingly, Jackie had no recollection of any of that FWIW.

Quote:
Why didn't that 3rd shot just plow through with an exit hole matching the entrance hole, like Kennedy's throat wound? Lots of African game animals shot with solids...their heads don't explode.
The fact is it hit bone and a very thick bone table at that. I haven't seen film of African game animal head shots, so I can't comment on that. Once a bullet hits bone, as opposed to soft tissue, it clearly deflects or has a definite propensity to do so.

Quote:
The 3rd bullet is the magic one.
Neither I nor a distinguished panel of forensic pathologists agree, but you'll have to make up your own mind.

Quote:
Why did Oswald take the 1st shot when the car was behind the trees? A sure miss as he couldn't see the target. Why didn't he take the easy kill shot when the car was making the turn directly under him? Did he leave the safety on accidentally, as some suggest? Dummy forgets the safety is on, then rushes the 1st shot, then calms down and makes 2 good shots. Oswald did not once in his life ever "calm down" when the going got tough, he had a long history of failure.
And that's kind of the point, isn't it? He didn't do anything fantastic or supernatural. He completely missed the first shot for whatever reason that happened, hit low his second shot and finally connected on the third shot.

Quote:
Oswald shot better as the car got farther away, gained speed, and the angles changed.
The car's speed had not increased and the angle had not changed to any appreciable degree. That's the thing most people don't appreciate about the setting. 88 yards with a scope or iron sights is not far.

Quote:
Oswald trained on the Garand, but he worked that bolt action like a Gunsite 270 graduate. There was a round in the chamber when the gun was found, so Oswald racked the bolt after the 3rd shot, like Gunsite grads are taught, but he was not taught that method of shooting in the Marines.
Marina testified that she heard him practicing dry fire and working that bolt multiple times. I don't know about you but I rack the next time every time I fire when deer hunting. Seems pretty natural to me and I've never been to Gunsite.

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Why did Oswald leave his pistol at home? After killing Kennedy he didn't get out of town he went home and picked up his pistol.
Because he was a twisted idiot? His entire life to that point underscored that.

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I have read multiple reports that the scope was loose. How do you shoot better as the car gets farther away with a loose scope?
I've never read that the scope was loose but rather significantly off at the time the FBI tested it. Nobody knows when that occurred. Was it when LHO stuffed it in between the boxes after the shooting? Was it when he stuffed the rifle months prior after his failed assassination attempt of Gen. Walker? Sometime in between? I don't know either but that scope was mounted offset to the left, leaving the iron sights available for use.

Conspiracy nutters love to make up stuff all the time, so I'll take a stab too. Let's say the scope was off that day due to prior mishandling. LHO takes the first shot and misses. He realizes that his scope is off, so goes to iron sights for shots two and three. Sure, I pulled that out of my *** but it's more likely that 99% of the conspiracy theory BS I've read. Personally I think the scope was knocked out of alignment when he stuffed the rifle prior to leaving the sixth floor.
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Old 05-08-2013, 21:51   #200
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Originally Posted by Doc McGlock View Post
For me, for over 40+ years, I cannot get past the back and to the left motion of the head, I see no plausible way for this to happen coming from the rear.

I also do not believe the shooters lived through the afternoon. Where was the SS? Why all the open windows, change in parade route, body removed from Dallas where legally, the autopsy should have been performed.

On the other hand I have also always wondered why, if there were a conspiracy, that none of the surviving Kennedy's took it upon themselves to insist on clearing it up especially since Robert Kennedy was the Attorney General at the time?

"Splain mi dis Lucy?"

Seeing how DC and our government is made up of self serving people with very little in the way of integrity, why should we expect anything greater?
I actually already posted a video that shows why the head went back.
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