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Old 05-02-2013, 18:47   #41
Ringo S.
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No matter how many firsthand accounts of the terror, firsthand accounts of the Stalin-manufactured famines...
... Socialists are Socialists, and when they hide behind the banner of Communism they are particularly violent...
Right here! You are starting with lie. It was not "manufactured".
By the way, Big crisis of 1929 was also manufactured?

Do you think that american troops didn't rape and pillage germans? Never heard about it? No surprise...
Just couple of days ago I read interview with german who was panzer officer and was fighting on both, Eastern and Western fronts, here some excerpts I made with rough computer translator:


After three camps, I got out of there in Menden and Remangen. In this case, I had a lot to suffer and survive. The fact that the Americans treat prisoners of war as dishonest and cruel, I think it is absolutely impossible. Most of the German soldiers lost everything they had. They were "liberated" from their things, especially off the watches, wedding rings and decorations. I saw the American soldiers who hand to the elbow was in watches, and that their colored scarves secured by numerous wedding rings and had a knot at the bottom. During our battles in France and then in the Ardennes, we captured a lot of Americans. None of us, and it never occurred to take away from the prisoners their personal belongings and / or give them a kick in the ass, as it was with us, during the unloading of the cars. The fact that I personally have had no such problems, I have my bandaging from burns. But I had trouble with my black uniform. Sometimes Americans believed that I SS officer, and treated me not too gently. Only after they have determined that I do not have tattoos, began to treat me, as a "normal" POW.
I was not sent to the hospital. In the camp I have repeatedly asked for care. Many times I was denied, if not to say, kicked off. One day, during another attempt, I was strongly pushed by a German soldier. It was very bad, and I got rude. He apologized and said, "Comrade, I was brought here from the hospital, I am blind!"

A few days later, I saw through the gate the truck unloading the wounded, that Americans took away from hospitals. It is impossible to describe how the Americans treated the wounded, the soldiers with amputated legs, they took away their crutches.
Supply was not available, I repeat, "not at all." All the trees around the camp have no leaves, starving soldiers were cooking them in cans. I have not met a liberators, but soldiers of the army, which, to put it mildly, didn't care about neither Hague nor the Geneva Conventions.
The data on cholera and other diseases are true. It was horrible to watch as soldiers with diarrhea and fever in a fenced area with barbed wire die directly on the bare ground.
When the women came to the barbed wire to throw the food through it, they were chased away. The soldier, who dared to approach the barbed wire to pick the food would be simply shot with a machine gun.
The fact that our "liberators" could not reach, was the disappearance of the discipline and camaraderie. Willingness to help among the soldiers of all ranks was incredible. If it were not so, it would be a catastrophe that can not be described. "
I can not say exactly how long I was in a camp in Remangene, about two to four weeks. Some unfamiliar to me mates took me to the column, which were loaded into trucks. When the truck was filled, he went to the train station. There we were reloaded into boxcars. Trains that were there, went to Attishi [Picardy] to France. My impressions of these transports coincide with the impressions of other comrades: depressing for us and shameful for the Americans.
About the visit of Attishi I can not say much. If I talk about it, it will blow up the framework of my story. In the camp there were about 100,000 German prisoners of war. Within a large camps were small camp on the 1000 - 5000 people. Officers were separated from the rest of the soldiers and divided into so-called "hundreds." "Commanders" of hundreds were former soldiers of the Wehrmacht, that were convicted in the Wehrmacht for any offense, and "liberated" by the Americans from prisons. What happened there, it is easy to imagine.
Food we received the following standards: up to 100 people two loaves of bread a day, about one kilogram each. Put another way, on the day the person received a piece of bread the size of a sugar cube!
The water was in the barrel, which is filled from the tank car. Many comrades had no kettle, no cups, and it caused a big problem. Later we started to be given a little bit of beans, a little more bread and very strong coffee, which brought in the gutters. Coffee slush in the gutters which was from 6 to 8 inches, some comrades are dried and smoked. After some time in the tent arranged the church, and the service began. This tent was almost always empty. But then, when it was announced that after participating service will issue two cupcakes, there was always a lot of people. It was also forbidden to gather in the amount of more than three people.
Of course, many of the officers we were looking for friends. Completely unexpectedly, I met the commander of the last remnants of our division at the Ruhr pot, Colonel Bokhofa, which I was with my tanks a few times subjugated during the fighting in the Eifel. I was very happy because Bokhof Lieutenant Colonel, commander of the 11th Panzer Grenadier Regiment of our division and the winner of the Knight's Cross, was known and loved by the officer. Once during the welcome he told me that even before the fighting ended in Iserlohn, he of the higher headquarters, located outside the "pot", personally received a phone message that I was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross. From this, my joy at seeing him become even greater. Despite my position, I was a proud German soldier.
After a while, we were ordered to line up unexpectedly. U.S. officer read out to us on the situation in Germany, and we were given a gray-green, or green cards, so we can write to our families. There we could only write our names in a template:

Belonged to the defeated German army
Name: _______________
Reports that he is alive.

Me and many comrades such a cynical statement made so angry that we did not fill the card and not sent it.
It was the height of summer, the heat, the situation got worse for us. First of all, hunger was no longer possible to endure. The entire territory of the camp was plain, open to any weather. We ask ourselves, where, in fact, is Attishi, and one fellow in clear weather in the south-west saw Compiègne forest.
Rumors passed to each other, and every day there was more bad news than good. When the first officers were transferred to another camp, I have a few friends agreed to try to get to the next transport. It has turned out good, and we were loaded into trucks. The aim was Reims. There were two groups, only 100 officers. For the truck in which I was with lieutenant colonel Bokhofom, black American sergeant was responsible for, unlike the other guards he was friendly and honest. (Then, in 1945, the U.S. Army was still racial segregated!) He said to Colonel Bokhofu following:
"Probably in Reims you will have a difficult situation. You are first German officers who come to this camp. Expect that the German soldiers, pre-oriented, attack you, as officers, when you go to camp."
When we are on the trucks drove into the camp, the former cavalry barracks, everywhere there were cameras and cameramen filmed our reception at the camp, which was quite different than what was planned. Hundreds of German soldiers met us shouting "hurray" and friendly greetings. Amys was disappointed, perhaps even disgraced. After the gathering and conversion in the courtyard to me suddenly rushed soldiers from my former company and put his arm around me. Supply and at Reims was very bad, and the first days he always brought me something to eat, because we came from Attishi and were in very poor condition.
Note: In the district of Reims under the supervision of the Americans were about 35,000 German prisoners of war. They worked for the U.S. Army, there was a huge transshipment area for the entire supply entering the zone of occupied Germany. All German soldiers have clearly recognized, and was nowhere to be desired by the Americans "complications" between soldiers and officers.

- How did you react to the surrender as a defeat or a liberation?

No, no, of course, as a defeat. It was one of the most shocking experiences in my life. It was so much injustice, my sympathies for the Americans, if I have to have some sympathy for them, completely disappeared. Although Russian treat us not very well, but I do hate Americans, Russians, I do not hate them. But I hate the Americans. Russian just said: "That's how now will be the case."
On this subject there anecdote: two fishermen, Russian and American fish. Russian caught fish, killed it and ate it. American caught a fish, let her go back to the river, then caught again, then again let go. And so she was tormented, until fish died. That's what about we had. There is still a lot of jokes, but it's not so important. But I cordially hate Americans."

Last edited by Ringo S.; 05-02-2013 at 20:07..
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Old 05-02-2013, 18:54   #42
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Right here! You are starting with lie. I was not "manufactured".
I refer you to Harvest of Sorrow, by Robert Conquest. He has a bit more credibility as a historian than an anonymous internet commando with a cartoon bear as his avatar. In my opinion, of course.
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Old 05-02-2013, 19:16   #43
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Right here! You are starting with lie. I was not "manufactured".
Fortyofforty said Stalin manufactured famines, he never said you were manufactured.
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Old 05-02-2013, 19:38   #44
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Finally, we did not try to bomb North Viet Nam into submission with everything we had. We always limited our bombing campaigns. LBJ himself said that not even an outhouse would be bombed without White House approval, if I recall. There was a sense that, by carefully applying pressure, ratcheting up and winding down bombing efforts based on political actions by the North we could encourage a political outcome without getting fully involved. Of course, that was stupid. We should have bombed where the military wanted, when it wanted. We should have not continued to pretend that the Soviet Union wasn't involved. It was. But we couldn't bomb airfields for fear of killing Soviet "advisors", for example. And the Soviet Union provided details of bombing missions so that the crews of missile batteries knew when and where the planes would be. They had spies and spy-ships operating at the time that tipped them off. We fought with one hand tied behind our backs, and got our asses kicked. Respect Laotian neutrality? Seriously? That tells you all you need to know about how we fought that war.
While I agree that we could not bomb a lot of military targets due to Johnson's imposition of rules of engagement, during WW2 there were no limitations on bombing of military, economic and civilian target in both Germany and Japan, and yet the will of the people to keep on fighting was unabated. The London Blitz did nothing more than rally the English to keep on fighting. I think it was in 1967 that we reached the point that more bombs were dropped on North Vietnam than Nazi Germany.

Regardless of what was bombed, wars can't be won until there are boots on the ground to take and hold territory. Whenever our forces took territory in South Vietnam, we either gave it to the ARVN forces to hold, and they gave it up, or after expending blood and lives we gave it up. We could never win if we didn't take and hold territory.

As for fighting with one hand behind our backs, I have to say that sometimes we did, but other times, we didn't. Look at the carpet bombings around Khe Sanh, the assaults on Hills 881 and 881N, Hamburger Hill, the Ashau Valley. They were straight up slugging matches.
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Old 05-02-2013, 19:43   #45
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So I understand why are so ignorant in views on soviet history.
I must say I respect the fact that you can write and understand English so well.

However, it's the presence of pretentious, phony trolls like you that make Glocktalk an unpleasant place to visit.

Jesus said to argue with fools is tantamount to giving pigs pearls.

You're a pig. I'm saving my pearls for someone who deserves them.
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Old 05-02-2013, 21:22   #46
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...and we quietly agreed to take ours out of Turkey.
Agreed, but to a politician it was plenty of reason to claim success................especially when the removal of missiles in Turkey is pretty much under the radar.
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Old 05-02-2013, 22:17   #47
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You're a pig. I'm saving my pearls for someone who deserves them.
Yes, save you pearls for Las Vegas prostitutes, they may like them.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:44   #48
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Captured Germans got what they deserved. Particularly after we found the death camps, after we found how how our POWs were treated.
I wonder why so many Krauts worked so hard to escape the Russians to be captured by the Americans? Why so many squareheads lived in a fantasy world where the defeated Germany army would immediately join the conquering Americans to fight the Soviets?
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:47   #49
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I refer you to Harvest of Sorrow, by Robert Conquest. He has a bit more credibility as a historian than an anonymous internet commando with a cartoon bear as his avatar. In my opinion, of course.
An EXCELLENT book, BTW.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:49   #50
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Captured Germans got what they deserved. Particularly after we found the death camps, after we found how how our POWs were treated.
I wonder why so many Krauts worked so hard to escape the Russians to be captured by the Americans? Why so many squareheads lived in a fantasy world where the defeated Germany army would immediately join the conquering Americans to fight the Soviets?
What about the German women and YOUNG girls? Did they too deserve the rapes, tortures and murders they got?
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:40   #51
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Right here! You are starting with lie. It was not "manufactured".
By the way, Big crisis of 1929 was also manufactured?

Do you think that american troops didn't rape and pillage germans? Never heard about it? No surprise...
No one would ever claim that Americans did not rape or steal from civilians and captured soldiers. Of course they did, in some cases. Nothing on the scale perpetrated by the Germans and Soviets. However, the difference--and it's probably too complex for you to comprehend--is that the Soviets had a policy, approved by officers at the highest levels, of punishing German civilian women and children by encouraging mass rapes. It was an institutionally-promoted policy, designed to make the Germans suffer and also to force a mixture of Slavic blood with German blood.

As for thievery, entire factories and teams of German workers were moved, lock, stock and barrel, to the Soviet Union. Germany wasn't compensated for it. It was forced reparations, as far as the Soviets were concerned. No mercy. Some German scientists were captured and forced to work in the Soviet Union into the 1950s. More reparations, of course.

For a better presentation of much of this history, I refer you to the Fall of Berlin by Antony Beevor. He's another historian with published works and some credibility. But none of that matters to committed ideologues like you. Don't let facts interfere with your Socialist utopia.

Care to explain the causes of the great famines of the 1920s and 1930s in the Soviet Union? What did your Soviet history books say about them, if they were even mentioned?
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:13   #52
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ringo S., the big difference between atrocities committed by American soldiers, and those committed by German and Soviet troops during WW2 is that what was done by the Americans was the act of a few individuals, and what was done by the Germans and Soviets were acts that were institutionalized. I think it was Stephen Ambrose who asked the rhetorical question, "If you were in a village in Europe, who would you rather see marching down the street, a platoon of American GI's, a platoon of the Wehrmacht, or a platoon of Soviet infantry?"

There is a statue of a Soviet infantryman in Poland, put there to commemorate the Soviet victory. The locals call it the shrine to the unknown rapist.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:33   #53
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Then, when the French tried to regain their colony,
Harry Truman sided with the French.

Wait a minute. The USA expelled British colonialists. Why did we help French colonialists? Surely, money was to be made by someone. ...


The United States was trying to maintain France in NATO.

The Soviets were in an aggressive posture with massive land forces, control of East Germany, Poland and invaded Hungary.

It wasn't about money.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:09   #54
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An EXCELLENT book, BTW.
Yes, excellent... Especially I like the bit about 2 millions women raped in Berlin... Pity, doctor Goebbels didn't live long enough, he would like it too.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:16   #55
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However, the difference--and it's probably too complex for you to comprehend--is that the Soviets had a policy, approved by officers at the highest levels, of punishing German civilian women and children by encouraging mass rapes. It was an institutionally-promoted policy
Another lie. Soldiers of Red army who commit rape were shot, sometimes in front of the their detachment. When Red army enter Germany official policy of USSR became: "Hitlers come and go, german people stay". Only Goebbels type propagandists can wright about "institutionally-promoted policy".

Last edited by Ringo S.; 05-03-2013 at 11:29..
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:22   #56
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Captured Germans got what they deserved. Particularly after we found the death camps, after we found how how our POWs were treated.
No argument here. No pity for nazi soldiers at all! One of seven germans die in soviet captivity, against every three of five soviet soldiers in nazi captivity.
I just don't like crap about Red army as " lesser evil". There was only one Evil then. And one allied Good.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:23   #57
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Another lie. Soldiers of Red army who commit rape were shot, sometimes in front of the their detachment. Only Goebbels type propagandists can wright about "institutionally-promoted policy".
If the Soviet Union was so great, why did it have to put up a wall to keep people from escaping?
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:37   #58
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If the Soviet Union was so great, why did it have to put up a wall to keep people from escaping?
The same reason why Israel and USA building walls on the borders...
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ab-spring?lite

Last edited by Ringo S.; 05-03-2013 at 11:52..
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:20   #59
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The same reason why Israel and USA building walls on the borders...
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ab-spring?lite
The difference is people risk their lives every day trying to get into this country. People risked their lives trying to get out of the Soviet Union and the Eastern Bloc.
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Old 05-03-2013, 16:01   #60
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The same reason why Israel and USA building walls on the borders...
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ab-spring?lite


You are priceless. I understand that in a Soviet education system your nonsense would go unchallenged, but here on GT you are OWNED repeatedly.

I see you have no sympathy for German women and children who suffered at the hands of Soviet soldiers. That is really no surprise. Soviets were taught to have no sympathy for anyone but fellow Soviets, and you absorbed your lessons well. Beria would be proud.

Only a true Stalinist could dismiss all evidence contrary to his beliefs, attributing it to Goebbels, while ignoring the Stalinist origin of his own ludicrous beliefs. You are priceless, really. You expose the weakness of Soviet Socialist education, and show why the pitiful, rotten Soviet empire collapsed. Thanks for doing that.
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