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Old 05-01-2013, 15:47   #21
Silas.soule
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Originally Posted by teumessian_fox View Post
What an idiotic comment. What are you? Communist?

After what the communists did to those people after we withdrew and you make a statement like that?

GT cannot sink any lower.
If one denomination dominated the ranks of our political leadership, and told YOUR denomination they could not have a parade, you wouldn't see them as upholding American values.

BTW, though he disagrees with you doesn't mean he is an idiot. Is it not "The American Way" to disagree in a tolerant fashion? It's those people outside our borders who are always disagreeing in a negative fashion, carrying on like I don't know what. Until Uncle Sam tells them to stop.

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Old 05-01-2013, 15:51   #22
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Hindsight is great, but there was enough information out there at the time that showed it was a huge mistake right from beginning.

In 1966 or 67 General Westmoreland met with LBJ. As we sent more troops to South Vietnam, North Vietnam did too. No matter what efforts were made to interdict the movement of troops and material along the Ho Chi Minh Trail, it could be slowed but not stopped. When LBJ raised the question of what would happen if North Vietnam requested Chinese Army "volunteers" to match our increase in troops, the only answer Westmoreland had was, "that's a very good question".

Ever hear of The Great Laotian Truck Eater? That was an explanation put forth by the Air Force when daylight photos were taken after hundreds of B-52 raids on the Ho Chi Minh Trail that reported thousands of trucks being destroyed. The photos rarely showed any damaged trucks. Just lots of craters.
Interesting!
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Old 05-01-2013, 18:57   #23
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Kennedy was still giddy after his success on Cuba and tried to do similar in Vietnam. He had a distrust of the Joint Chiefs and the bureaucracy that came with them and always did an end run around them. Johnson followed that mindset........only consulting them on select occasions. McNamara and his "whiz kids" ran the show.

When Johnson finally did consult the Joint Chiefs, with the question on what it would take to win in Vietnam, one Chief said a war in SE Asia is unwinnable (he was promptly forced out) another said it would require a committment of 500,000 men (he was promptly forced out too).
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Old 05-01-2013, 19:28   #24
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Kennedy was still giddy after his success on Cuba
The Bay of Pigs was a success?

Quote:
and tried to do similar in Vietnam. He had a distrust of the Joint Chiefs and the bureaucracy that came with them and always did an end run around them. Johnson followed that mindset........only consulting them on select occasions. McNamara and his "whiz kids" ran the show.

When Johnson finally did consult the Joint Chiefs, with the question on what it would take to win in Vietnam, one Chief said a war in SE Asia is unwinnable (he was promptly forced out) another said it would require a committment of 500,000 men (he was promptly forced out too).
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Old 05-01-2013, 19:31   #25
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The Bay of Pigs was a success?
That is a news flash that never got released.

would have been terrible if I had failed
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Old 05-01-2013, 19:47   #26
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Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
after LBJ had JFK murdered, he sent thousands of Americans to be killed and then lied about it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 20:57   #27
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What I gather from this whole thing was this. Blame France.
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Old 05-01-2013, 21:38   #28
Ringo S.
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Sometimes in an imperfect world you have to choose the lesser of two evils, as FDR did when he allied with Stalin.
Lesser evil? Are you citing doctor Goebbels?
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Old 05-01-2013, 21:46   #29
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Lesser evil? Are you citing doctor Goebbels?
He's talking about the Empire that invaded, conquered/sized territory from six independent nations in 1939-40, then raped, murdered, pillaged, and installed totalitarian regimes in areas that it liberated (including Mother Russia itself). Sent tens of millions of it's citizens to slave labor camps, had no problem crushing it's ethnic minorities, etc. etc.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:30   #30
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He's talking about the Empire that invaded, conquered/sized territory from six independent nations in 1939-40, then raped, murdered, pillaged, and installed totalitarian regimes in areas that it liberated (including Mother Russia itself). Sent tens of millions of it's citizens to slave labor camps, had no problem crushing it's ethnic minorities, etc. etc.
Sounds as if you are describing the Soviet Union. Here's a little of their handiwork:



Of course if Alexander Solzhenitsyn's figures are to believed, the Soviets were only responsible for the murder of 40 million or so people.

BTW, the reviews on the Amazon site of the aforementioned book are illuminating.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:39   #31
Ringo S.
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He's talking about the Empire that invaded, conquered/sized territory from six independent nations in 1939-40, then raped, murdered, pillaged, and installed totalitarian regimes in areas that it liberated (including Mother Russia itself). Sent tens of millions of it's citizens to slave labor camps, had no problem crushing it's ethnic minorities, etc. etc.
Are you talking about occupation like this?:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Iceland
Or maybe, like invasion of independent state, and raping and pillaging of the Southern Confederacy? Just a little innocent evil?
Samples like this, with participation of the most respectably democratic countries, I could find a lot... Evil... Evil is everywhere... How scary to live!...
By the way, how would you call indian reservations or camps for japanese americans during WWII? Recreation camps? Or concentration death camps for boer civilians created by most democratic British empire?
Soviet people pay the high price for economical backwardness of Russian empire. In ten years in the 1930s country had to develop itself industrially with the highest speed in history. Not everybody was agree with that, and extreme measures had to be made and it was done. Result - defeat of Nazi Germany.

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Old 05-02-2013, 10:44   #32
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Of course if Alexander Solzhenitsyn's figures are to believed
No, he shouldn't be believed. No more than in writings of doctor Goebbels. At the time, when he was writing his book, all his info came from his ass. He didn't have any access to archives, so historically speaking, his writings lower in value than memoirs. Cos' memoirs do not accepted by historians as truth without documentS confirming that.

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Old 05-02-2013, 13:54   #33
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No, he shouldn't be believed. No more than in writings of doctor Goebbels. At the time, when he was writing his book, all his info came from his ass. He didn't have any access to archives, so historically speaking, his writings lower in value than memoirs. Cos' memoirs do not accepted by historians as truth without documentS confirming that.
The Gulag Archipelago was NOT a memoir and no one doubts its veracity, except, perhaps you. Two Hundred Years Together is a history and you, so far, are the only doubter I'm aware of. How did you come by your special insight? How many people do YOU say the Soviet Union murdered?

...and comparing Solzhenitsyn to Goebbels is beyond idiotic.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:06   #34
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The Bay of Pigs was a success?
No, getting Russia to take missiles out of Cuba.
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Old 05-02-2013, 14:48   #35
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No, getting Russia to take missiles out of Cuba.
...and we quietly agreed to take ours out of Turkey.
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Old 05-02-2013, 15:43   #36
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The Gulag Archipelago was NOT a memoir and no one doubts its veracity, except, perhaps you.
...and comparing Solzhenitsyn to Goebbels is beyond idiotic.
How many people in USA have no doubt, that President Obama is the smartest man alive and God's gift to humanity? Half of the country? So, you do not impress me with figures of ignorant people, who takes fairytails of Solzhenitsyn as Gospel... Decades of brainwashing is working. And you probably read in childhood too many comics like this one:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8487/Hansi...d-the-Swastika
So I understand why are so ignorant in views on soviet history.

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Old 05-02-2013, 17:11   #37
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Let's get back on track, for a little while at least.

Here is an interesting quote from then Senator John Fitzgerald Kennedy after he came back to the US after touring Vietnam in 1951:

"Without the support of the native population there is no hope of success in any of the countries of Southeast Asia".

The original commitment to Saigon was made in 1954 and renewed in 1957. Eisenhower pledged support to the Diem regime to assist the government of Vietnam in developing and maintaining a strong, viable state capable of resisting subversion or aggression through military means.

It was this pledge that Kennedy, and LBJ, felt they had to keep. That, and the fact that the cold warriors were still hurting about "losing" China. They weren't about to "lose" another country to communism. There is the dirty lie to the whole, sad episode. We were not tied by any treaty, nor by any of our own national interests. In 1963 most people never heard of Vietnam, and could not find it on a map. The concern that another country might be "lost" to communism when in reality it was a civil war being fought against an oppressive regime that we had no interest in at all in sucked us into a great, vast, sucking pit.

We tried bombing North Vietnam into submission. That didn't work against Nazi Germany and it wasn't until we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan that it surrendered, and it came very close to not doing so. Whenever our troops fought a battle and won, we left the field in the hands of the VC and NVA. Look at Khe Sanh. It was called "the cork in the bottle" of the Central Highlands. The rational for keeping the base there was to prevent the NVA from overrunning South Vietnam. After losing lots of good Marines we left it. Look at Hamburger Hill. We fought like hell for days and had over a dozen assaults repulsed before the 101st Airborne finally took that hill. And then we loaded out troops up in Hueys and left the hill for the enemy. THAT SAME DAY!

As far as the argument that the war was lost by the media, that our forces never lost a battle, think about this. How many men were lost in the daily grind of patrol, without ever even seeing the enemy? Many of our units in the field were operating at half strength because of casualties from booby traps and snipers. Hell, we had lots of units who never even saw the enemy, but suffered 15-20% casualties every time they went on patrol.

The overwhelming majority of South Vietnamese had no desire to have us there. Nguyen the rice farmer just wanted to be left alone. We had no signed treaty with any of the South Vietnamese governments(I think there were around a dozen different governments between 1964 and 1975). We had no political or economic interests in South Vietnam. It was a waste, in lives and in treasure. We would have been much wiser to stay out if it entirely.
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Old 05-02-2013, 17:20   #38
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Originally Posted by Ringo S. View Post
No, he shouldn't be believed. No more than in writings of doctor Goebbels. At the time, when he was writing his book, all his info came from his ass. He didn't have any access to archives, so historically speaking, his writings lower in value than memoirs. Cos' memoirs do not accepted by historians as truth without documentS confirming that.
Might I recommend the book Forsaken, by Timothy Tzoudalis? It goes into great detail about Stalin's Terror and the Gulags.
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Old 05-02-2013, 18:26   #39
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First, there is no amount of evidence you will be able to present to convince that historical genius Ringo S. that Stalin or the Soviet Union were evil. No matter how many firsthand accounts of the terror, firsthand accounts of the Stalin-manufactured famines, firsthand accounts of the Gulag that existed since the first days of the Soviet regime, or firsthand accounts of the rapes that had nothing to do with military activities except in the minds of Soviet apologists, Ringo S. believes otherwise. Not worth trying. His Soviet brainwashing was thorough and long-lasting.

Second, the atrocities committed by the National Socialists in Germany, the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Viet Nam, Cambodia, and Laos are well-documented. The far left excuses and accepts these actions as necessary in their march toward complete control over the world's economies. Viet Nam wasn't special. Viet Nam wasn't unique. Socialists are Socialists, and when they hide behind the banner of Communism they are particularly violent. Socialists, once in control, do not generally tolerate dissent. We were right to fight against the National Socialists in North Viet Nam. Their actions after we left were no more brutal than they would have been had we not fought against them for over a decade.

Third, Ho Chi Minh was a Communist. Fidel Castro was a Communist. From long before they sought our help, they were hardcore committed Communists. They would have probably taken any and all help, especially weapons and money, given to them by anyone, including the United States. But, to pretend that they sought our help and only because we denied aid, they turned to the other side is ludicrous. It is rewriting history. Revisionist history is a popular trick used by the left to blame America for all the world's evils. There is absolutely no logical reason why America should provide assistance to Communists, Marxists, or National Socialists without extreme necessity and extraordinary circumstances. These extremists seek the destruction of Capitalism and Capitalist countries, and deserve no help.

Finally, we did not try to bomb North Viet Nam into submission with everything we had. We always limited our bombing campaigns. LBJ himself said that not even an outhouse would be bombed without White House approval, if I recall. There was a sense that, by carefully applying pressure, ratcheting up and winding down bombing efforts based on political actions by the North we could encourage a political outcome without getting fully involved. Of course, that was stupid. We should have bombed where the military wanted, when it wanted. We should have not continued to pretend that the Soviet Union wasn't involved. It was. But we couldn't bomb airfields for fear of killing Soviet "advisors", for example. And the Soviet Union provided details of bombing missions so that the crews of missile batteries knew when and where the planes would be. They had spies and spy-ships operating at the time that tipped them off. We fought with one hand tied behind our backs, and got our asses kicked. Respect Laotian neutrality? Seriously? That tells you all you need to know about how we fought that war.
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Old 05-02-2013, 18:46   #40
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There is absolutely no logical reason why America should provide assistance to Communists, Marxists, or National Socialists without extreme necessity and extraordinary circumstances. These extremists seek the destruction of Capitalism and Capitalist countries, and deserve no help.
To steal a step from the religious folks,

"The greatest evil deed of the world wide socialist movement was to convince people it didn't exist"

amazing how many people will not admit that, revelations made after the fall of the Berlin wall showed McCarthy was right a lot more than he was wrong.
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