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Old 06-03-2013, 19:00   #81
Big Bird
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I've been shooting bows since I was a young teenager--0ver 40 years. I've taught archery. Shot in and won Field Archery Tournaments. Shot 3d. And of course have hunted and taken upwards of 20 deer with a bow.

I no longer own any compound bows for several reasons. But they would be a terrible choice for any kind of REALISTIC survival scenario. They are heavy, need constant maintenance, are hard on arrows, and need constant tuning. And they break from time to time. I much prefer a long-bow and a long bow is less than a pound. A dozen arrows with some decent weight broadheads are somewhere around a pound. But they are all bulky and awkward to pack.

But that's not the issue. The issue is limited range and the need for a lot of practice.

Lets face it. A modern long-bow or recurve has a 20-25 yard effective range. You can go to 35-40 with a compound. That's at the far end for both weapons IF you are really good. It takes lots of practice arrows to get that good and it requires constant practice. An average shot with a longbow/recurve is only good to 15 and an average shot with a compound is maxed out at 25 yards. There are VERY few people who are good with a bow beyond those ranges...less than 5% of all the archer's I've even been associated with IME.

Google the story of Ishi. He was a native American from one of the last wild tribes in the West. Long story short. Ishi taught Archery and bow hunting/making to people like Saxton Pope and Art Young (Google those fellows as well). Most Native American bows were less than 45# and were typically only drawn to a length of approx 24-25". Game was shot with these bows at less than 15 yards and typically inside of 10 yards.

Also consider...if SHTF there will be little game left in a matter of days. There are a ton of people who have the same plan...gonna live off rabbits, squirrels, deer etc.

Consider this reality. In 1776 Fort Boonesborough was founded with something like 22 settlers. It was recorded that within 3 months of building the fort the game was shot out by the new residents within a range of 30 miles of the fort! That was done by 22 people in a pristine world with plenty of game using single shot flintlock rifles! Imagine how little time this would take now with today's population densities using modern firearms and machines like ATV's 4WD trucks etc The reality is subsistence hunting would be over VERY quickly.

A bow is a poor SHTF choice for several reasons. But mainly because its utility as a tool for collecting dinner would be so short lived its not hardly worth the significant investment in time and tackle required to become a proficient shot.

Anyone who thinks they are going to need to carry an infantry man's basic load better get their head adjusted. You get into those kind of fights your chances of living through a confrontation or two that require the expenditure of hundreds of rounds of ammo is severely in doubt. Its a really dumb idea.
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Old 06-03-2013, 20:11   #82
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Big Bird, you have just rightly rained on the parade of the Rocky/Schwartzenager wanna bees.

I had a primitive arts class taught by a wonderful guy who could make a bow in the wild. Unfortunately, he had watched too many Robin Hood 1/2 hour programs on tv and really didn't have an idea of how an American Indian shot a bow. He nearly went into shock when he was told that the bow was used horizontally and in still shooting from short rang - like 25 feet on known deer trails. With a deer, when shot, they may run 100 yards, lie down and freeze up.
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Old 06-03-2013, 21:28   #83
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I've been reading all this info on "Bows & Arrows" and find it very informative, thanks for that. I have some really nice re-curve and compound bows that my son gave me several years ago and I have trouble hitting the side of my barn. I'm really terrible at bow shooting. I would love to learn how to correctly use these things, but no one around me does this sort of thing. All my neighbors and friends keep an armory of weapons, but no bows. I keep all this stuff hoping someone some day will help me out.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:06   #84
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Back on page 3, BD had a good suggestion with the slingbow set up with takedown arrows: Pocket Hunter

Has anyone used this system? Seems to have good reveiws on the PF store.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:39   #85
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I've been reading all this info on "Bows & Arrows" and find it very informative, thanks for that. I have some really nice re-curve and compound bows that my son gave me several years ago and I have trouble hitting the side of my barn. I'm really terrible at bow shooting. I would love to learn how to correctly use these things, but no one around me does this sort of thing. All my neighbors and friends keep an armory of weapons, but no bows. I keep all this stuff hoping someone some day will help me out.
Learning to shoot a bow is like any other athletic pursuit--its all about proper form and muscle memory.

Like a golf swing or throwing a baseball there's good form and technique and everything else. It truly matters not whether we are discussing compound bows or traditional archery equipment. The fundamentals are the same.
There are a ton of very good instructional videos out there and online. The most simple thing you can do to learn archery is make yourself a "string bow" and use it to develop your back muscles. Everything in archery boils down to maintaining proper back tension. If you can't mentally isolate and move your back muscles you need to work on it.
You try to use your arms to muscle back and hold a bow you will never be a good shot. Back-tension Back-tension Back-tension! Bad release? Your back tension caused it...(I can prove it!). Can't hold the bow at full draw? Back tension....
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:14   #86
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OK there Robin Hood - just how many bows have you acquired at this point? Are you arming a band of Merry Post-SHTF Men?

In all seriousness, I can't hate on the bow. It's a good idea period and way you slice it.

- getting them cheap
- light
- quiet
- easy to carry
- physical activity
- requires supreme hunting skills
- ammo is renewable
- can shoot for sport, fun, or SD (sort of)

There is nothing bad about the bow. It has limitations, but so does an AR. Cost is low, benefits are high, negatives are almost nonexistent.

Hmmm....why don't I have a bow!?!?!?!?!?
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:04   #87
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Survival/Preparedness Forum

Anything else really need to be discussed.....
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Old 06-04-2013, 13:36   #88
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Nothing beats an assault rifle that fires swords, I'll give you that.

I've killed a few deer with pretty rudimentary bows back in the 1970s, probably going to take that Martin with me next fall to try it again. I don't think it is all that hard and most of my vintage gear still does the job with little messing around with it. The bows I've bought at garage sales were brought home and used as is.

My point in suggesting a bow for survival is that if you already have some skills, then a bow may be an option for you in a survival setting. If you don't have the skill set and want to learn take a class or a lesson.

So here is my garage sale collection of bows. Two from last summer, two from this summer. So yeah, Mac's band of merry men will be equipped for the Apocalypse with little pointy sticks.

From left to right. Martin Ted Nugent Ultimate Beast, PSE Unk Model, Bear Polar Bear and an all wood Browning Stalker. There is not $100 total in those bows including the arrows, cases and accessories that came with them. I will say that the Martin makes the others unnecessary. One of my sons has dibs on the PSE, the others will probably end up in my own garage sale. I have to admit thought that the Browning is very light and fun to shoot. It doesn't have any sights and has a 35# draw. Just a basic, simple bow.

Survival/Preparedness Forum
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Old 06-04-2013, 19:50   #89
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Again - some basic bow skill is forty two different flavors of a great idea. I may need to hit a few garage sales.

Ever see a crossbow?
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:06   #90
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Again - some basic bow skill is forty two different flavors of a great idea. I may need to hit a few garage sales.

Ever see a crossbow?
Here's what I believe is going on with bows. Guys my age/baby boomers, who got caught up in the compound bow revolution of the 70s & 80s have either stopped bow hunting or bought crossbows (my state legalized cross bows for hunting a couple years ago) because we are getting older and have shoulder problems. Thus, I am starting to see lots of 70s & 80 era bows in garage sales but no cross bows. The bows are old technology so they have little appeal to current generations thus no or little resale value. They may be old tech but they are still pretty good, efficient tools IMO. I don't think a deer is going to be able to tell the difference between a 70s/80s era compound bow with the same draw weight as a modern one.

What I did was try to upgrade my old bow by buying garage sale bows mostly for the accessories and arrows. If I found a better bow than my original I took that and then looked for better accessories off of other bows.
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Old 06-06-2013, 15:41   #91
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Mac,

Here's where what you are doing falls down a little. None of those bows will probably shoot the same spine/weight/length of arrow. They certainly won't with different people driving them. So your ability to outfit everyone will be compounded when you go to set those bows up with arrows. But you are probably looking at a minimum of three different spine/length arrow shafts and maybe four. Aluminum and cheap Carbon shafts can be had for around $40-50 a dozen. Good Carbon shafts will set you back more like $80 a dozen or more.

Then you have to fletch them. 3 dozen fletchings (enough for a dozen arrows) will run ~$20. Then nocks = $3-4, Then inserts/points = $10 or Broadheads ($20-30 for half dozen minimum) Not to mention hot melt glue, fletching cement, fletching jig, etc etc. When its all said and done you are looking at a minimum of $80 a dozen. Times four bows. And you are talking another $400. Then you need shooting tabs and arms guards..hell you can make those. But really... If you intend to use a mechanical release you are talking another $30-40 or more per bow... call it $120.
Then you need quivers...

Then list is endless...
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Old 06-06-2013, 16:06   #92
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Mac,

Here's where what you are doing falls down a little. None of those bows will probably shoot the same spine/weight/length of arrow. They certainly won't with different people driving them. So your ability to outfit everyone will be compounded when you go to set those bows up with arrows. But you are probably looking at a minimum of three different spine/length arrow shafts and maybe four. Aluminum and cheap Carbon shafts can be had for around $40-50 a dozen. Good Carbon shafts will set you back more like $80 a dozen or more.

Then you have to fletch them. 3 dozen fletchings (enough for a dozen arrows) will run ~$20. Then nocks = $3-4, Then inserts/points = $10 or Broadheads ($20-30 for half dozen minimum) Not to mention hot melt glue, fletching cement, fletching jig, etc etc. When its all said and done you are looking at a minimum of $80 a dozen. Times four bows. And you are talking another $400. Then you need shooting tabs and arms guards..hell you can make those. But really... If you intend to use a mechanical release you are talking another $30-40 or more per bow... call it $120.
Then you need quivers...

Then list is endless...
First, I was being facetious when I was talking about outfitting my band of merry men.

Second, I've been picking up accessories and stuff at the garage sales all along. I have three releases that work fine, a glove if I don't want to use the releases, and arm guard from the old days that works just fine. That Martin bow I bought came with everything on it plus two releases and 9 NIB broadheads.

Third, regarding arrows. I know the trend is toward carbon shafts but I've had good luck with aluminum arrows. In fact I got a dozen arrows that came with the PSE bow for $15 bucks total. Those arrows match that bow and so far they shoot to point of aim on my other bows. Are they the best? No. Are they good enough? Yes, sometimes good enough is good enough.

So tell me why in 2013 I can't use the same stuff that worked fine in 1977-1985? As long as I can put an arrow on the target what difference does it make what I use to do it with? Deer haven't gotten any bigger or tougher.
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Old 06-06-2013, 19:14   #93
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First, I was being facetious when I was talking about outfitting my band of merry men.

Second, I've been picking up accessories and stuff at the garage sales all along. I have three releases that work fine, a glove if I don't want to use the releases, and arm guard from the old days that works just fine. That Martin bow I bought came with everything on it plus two releases and 9 NIB broadheads.

Third, regarding arrows. I know the trend is toward carbon shafts but I've had good luck with aluminum arrows. In fact I got a dozen arrows that came with the PSE bow for $15 bucks total. Those arrows match that bow and so far they shoot to point of aim on my other bows. Are they the best? No. Are they good enough? Yes, sometimes good enough is good enough.

So tell me why in 2013 I can't use the same stuff that worked fine in 1977-1985? As long as I can put an arrow on the target what difference does it make what I use to do it with? Deer haven't gotten any bigger or tougher.
You can. Nothing wrong with any of it. But a dozen aluminum arrows won't last 2 months if you do any kind of practice. They bend too easily. That's why people mostly shoot carbons now. And that overdraw on the Martin? Well, lets just say there's a reason those things went the way of the Dinosaurs back in the early 90's.

I'm not raggin' on ya man... Just sayin' that all that used equipment doesn't really save you as much as you think if will if you are at all serious about archery and deer hunting.

That stuff still works. Hell, I shoot a longbow for cryin' out loud.
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Old 06-06-2013, 19:30   #94
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I think using a bow and arrow is like those people who must start a fire with 2 sticks. Sure you can use it but why would you if you have other options. I don't think a bow and arrow should even be a back-up plan.
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Old 06-06-2013, 20:28   #95
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Ugh. A lot of archery ignorance in this thread, from everyone, generally.
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:09   #96
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Ugh. A lot of archery ignorance in this thread, from everyone, generally.
Care to expound on this rather sweeping comment?
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:24   #97
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You can. Nothing wrong with any of it. But a dozen aluminum arrows won't last 2 months if you do any kind of practice. They bend too easily. That's why people mostly shoot carbons now. And that overdraw on the Martin? Well, lets just say there's a reason those things went the way of the Dinosaurs back in the early 90's.

I'm not raggin' on ya man... Just sayin' that all that used equipment doesn't really save you as much as you think if will if you are at all serious about archery and deer hunting.

That stuff still works. Hell, I shoot a longbow for cryin' out loud.
One bow, one arrow, one deer. Simple as that
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Old 06-07-2013, 07:41   #98
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One bow, one arrow, one deer. Simple as that
Yeah...OK.

Not even Robin Hood or Howard Hill carried a quiver with a single arrow. But if it works for you...

Just don't lose it when you shoot clean through a deer and it bounces off a tree on the far side into the next county or slams into a rock and bends in half...
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:58   #99
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It's good to see someone bring up Howard Hill; he's about the epitome of "been there, done that" imo when it comes to archery. It's been years ago since I've read any of his writings, but the biggest thing I remember him commenting on wasn't "this bow vs. that bow" or anything equipment-related for that matter; it was the level of woodsman skills and stalking needed by a serious archer. Personally I don't have that level of stalking skill. Even though I grew up in the country, I was infantry, and been hunting since Nixon was president, the sad truth is that in the woods I'm still more of a Shrek than a Ninja; and I can't help but suspect that I'm not the only one in our modern world.

Archery - especially survival archery - requires a serious set of related skills that most people (including me) just don't have nowadays. If you do, then more power to you. But I don't and honestly at my age I'm not going to spend the time & effort to try & master them now. I enjoy shooting a bow on the rare occasions I do it. But for survival/emergency use, give me a suppressed gun, snares, traps, fishing yo-yo's, whatever; they'd all serve me personally better than a bow would.
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Old 06-07-2013, 13:46   #100
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Yeah...OK.

Not even Robin Hood or Howard Hill carried a quiver with a single arrow. But if it works for you...

Just don't lose it when you shoot clean through a deer and it bounces off a tree on the far side into the next county or slams into a rock and bends in half...
That won't happen because I tie a string onto my arrows so I can just reel the deer in after I hit it.
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