Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-05-2013, 05:17   #61
Toyman
Senior Member
 
Toyman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 3,867
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
Bows are great for many reasons.

Not least is that they're damn near silent and you can recover your ammo.....
I don't know about where you live, but around here if you shoot an arrow at ground level you're probably not going to find that arrow. It will go under the grass or leaves.

Also, quite often the arrows are broken simply by hitting a tree or stick, or when shooting deer, if you don't get a pass through the arrow will be broken when/if you find it.

Arrows are normally at least 28". A dozen of them will take up the space of a shotgun. That's not including the bow itself.
__________________
Mike - A forum post should be like a skirt. Long enough to cover the subject material, but short enough to keep things interesting.
"It's not about the odds, it's about the stakes." -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Toyman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 16:44   #62
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,251
Whether or not you break or loose arrows really boils down to how much self control you have over whether to shoot or not shoot and how good your aim is. When i was young and first into archery i used to lose and break arrows all the time. Now... almost never. I also learned to shoot super strong arrows instead of going for all out speed with thin light ones. Instead i crank up the poundage of my bow for max power and the flattest possible shooting with heavy arrows. If there is any kind of branch in front of me when i am about to shoot i either move to miss it or i don't shoot at all. ANY kind of deflection is just plain not fair at all to any animal you are about take a shot at. Lost out on a shot at a nice succulent elk one time because of that because i wouldn't take a chance on wounding the elk... and i might not have hit the branch. If i get a pass through and trash an arrow on a rock... it's worth it... i'll take that sacrifice. I've sat up many a night in camp resharpening my spear guns spear tip after shooting through many a big fish that just wouldn't move away from a rock... but i was HUNGRY, i can only hold my breath for so long, and a fish big enough to feed several hungry camping teenagers with no money isn't always easy to find... much less shoot and get. As for losing arrows in the grass or bushes, there are a few tricks to finding them. You "grid out" an area, then go at it systematically. You will almost ALWAYS find your arrow. What condition you find it in is another story. Back to "don't shoot unless you know you are going to hit what you are aiming at." But, all things considered... if you are planning on feeding yourself over a few years time with a bow and arrow instead of guns, etc., you BETTER have a FAT stash of arrow making components and parts for your bow. You should also know how to make a new bow and arrows from scratch. And you should also know how to make snares, catch fish, find wild growing food and which has the vitamin C... A guy can starve pretty quick thinking he's going to feed himself easily with a bow... or even a rifle for that matter. Read the Lewis and Clark expedition journals.... you'll see how even they starved their asses off several times... and what food turned out to be the best.
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 16:47   #63
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by T***10m View Post
Read the Lewis and Clark expedition journals.... you'll see how even they starved their asses off several times... and what food turned out to be the best.
And they probably WOULD have starved to death somewhere long the way, possibly wintering in/around Oregon, if not for the Natives.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 17:41   #64
mac66
Plant the seed
 
mac66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Save America
Posts: 7,990
Interesting bringing up Lewis and Clark. I managed to find a list of all the meat they killed and ate. There was one notation that they killed a rabbit by shooting a piece of hardwood out of a gun when they ran out of lead to make balls. The equipment list of what they took did not include bows or arrows.

There was quote in one of the journals that said something like "nearly starved to death in the land of plenty for lack of a musket ball".

Deer (all species combined) 1,001
Elk 375
Bison 227
Antelope 62
Bighorned sheep 35
Bears, grizzly 43
Bears, black 23
Beaver (shot or trapped) 113
Otter 16
Geese and Brant 104
Grouse (all species) 46
Turkeys 9
Plovers 48
Wolves (only one eaten) 18
Indian dogs (purchased and consumed) 190
Horses 12
__________________
Every American a Rifleman

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by mac66; 05-05-2013 at 17:43..
mac66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 18:25   #65
bdcochran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,672
thanks mac66

Thanks Mac66. I saved the list of animals eaten. Perhaps it should be posted again when some survivalists assert that when shtf, they will live off the land. Given the lack of animals on that list today, I dare say that it will start with eating the neighbor's dogs and working ones way down to the rats and mice.
bdcochran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 20:52   #66
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac66 View Post
Interesting bringing up Lewis and Clark. I managed to find a list of all the meat they killed and ate. There was one notation that they killed a rabbit by shooting a piece of hardwood out of a gun when they ran out of lead to make balls. The equipment list of what they took did not include bows or arrows.

There was quote in one of the journals that said something like "nearly starved to death in the land of plenty for lack of a musket ball".
Interesting. Do you have a link to that quote? Because I have read Stephen Ambrose's book Undaunted Courage, chronicling the Lewis/Clark expedition, and, I quote:

"By September 18 [1806], the party was within 150 miles of the settlements. It had run entirely out of provisions and trade goods. Other than the cooking kettles, the scientific instruments, and some tools, it had no manufactured goods--except rifles. It had plenty of those, and powder and lead, and there was game in the neighborhood, but the almost daily passage of traders' boats and caused the deer and bear to move back from the river, this slowed the party down considerably."

The above quote is from mere days before the expedition returned.

I don't know what quote you could be referring to. Perhaps at some point when the party split, somebody failed to take enough lead/musket balls with them for that short duration?
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 03:21   #67
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
And they probably WOULD have starved to death somewhere long the way, possibly wintering in/around Oregon, if not for the Natives.
So true! God BLESS the Natives!
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 03:24   #68
Tazz10m
Mod Aerator
 
Tazz10m's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: On the beach with girls in bikinis
Posts: 6,251
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdcochran View Post
Thanks Mac66. I saved the list of animals eaten. Perhaps it should be posted again when some survivalists assert that when shtf, they will live off the land. Given the lack of animals on that list today, I dare say that it will start with eating the neighbor's dogs and working ones way down to the rats and mice.
"Neighbors dogs" hell! They bought and ate their own! Mmmmm.... yummy!
__________________
Celebrating 20 Years of helping good people get AGripô!

Find out what all the fuzz is about... seriously... get AGrip!

Brooks W. Speier

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Official AGripô Manufacturer Website

AGripô Installation Video

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



Never let anyone who is clueless about defense tell you what you can and can't do to protect yourself and others.

Μολὼν λαβέ!
Tazz10m is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 08:46   #69
Deputydave
Senior Member
 
Deputydave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Posts: 2,730
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdcochran View Post
I go back to the original question.

You might consider the concept of a slingshot bow and take down arrows.

http://www.thepathfinderstore.com/

It is a true take-down concept.

Becoming set up is substantially less expensive than obtaining a proper takedown bow and arrows.

No one is disputing that a silenced firearm, yatta yatta, may be more efficient in most instances. Then again, using traps and snares rank higher in gathering meat because they work 24/7 while you can sit back and enjoy life after shtf.

Having taken primitive arts classes, I can inform you that MAKING your own sling, slingshot, atlatal, bow, arrows, gunpowder, excrima stick, walking stick, quarterstaff or bolas in the field after shtf isn't as thoughtful as buying commercial units before shtf. Shtf is a pass/fail situation.

If you aren't going to gain bow shooting skills before shtf, then pass on it. Ditto to other non firearm options and skills.

There is a myth that the Indians had an easy time living off the land. Untrue. The survivors had many years of practice.
Thanks for the tip(s). I'm really starting to dig that sling bow on the PF site.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
Deputydave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2013, 12:48   #70
mac66
Plant the seed
 
mac66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Save America
Posts: 7,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Interesting. Do you have a link to that quote? Because I have read Stephen Ambrose's book Undaunted Courage, chronicling the Lewis/Clark expedition, and, I quote:

"By September 18 [1806], the party was within 150 miles of the settlements. It had run entirely out of provisions and trade goods. Other than the cooking kettles, the scientific instruments, and some tools, it had no manufactured goods--except rifles. It had plenty of those, and powder and lead, and there was game in the neighborhood, but the almost daily passage of traders' boats and caused the deer and bear to move back from the river, this slowed the party down considerably."

The above quote is from mere days before the expedition returned.

I don't know what quote you could be referring to. Perhaps at some point when the party split, somebody failed to take enough lead/musket balls with them for that short duration?
September 11, 1804 "he had been 12 days without any thing to eate but Grapes & one rabit, which he killed by shooting a piece of hard Stick in place of a ball…Thus a man had like to have Starved to death in a land of Plenty for the want of Bulits or Something to kill his meat." Clark

The Natural History of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, Michigan State Press 1995

I don't know who or in what context he was referring. I didn't read the journals just excerpts.

I also didn't mention that beside the list I posted, they also ate just about everything that walked, swam or crawled to keep themselves fed.
__________________
Every American a Rifleman

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by mac66; 05-06-2013 at 12:49..
mac66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 12:13   #71
Stupid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Interesting. Do you have a link to that quote? Because I have read Stephen Ambrose's book Undaunted Courage, chronicling the Lewis/Clark expedition, and, I quote:

"By September 18 [1806], the party was within 150 miles of the settlements. It had run entirely out of provisions and trade goods. Other than the cooking kettles, the scientific instruments, and some tools, it had no manufactured goods--except rifles. It had plenty of those, and powder and lead, and there was game in the neighborhood, but the almost daily passage of traders' boats and caused the deer and bear to move back from the river, this slowed the party down considerably."

The above quote is from mere days before the expedition returned.

I don't know what quote you could be referring to. Perhaps at some point when the party split, somebody failed to take enough lead/musket balls with them for that short duration?

Found it for you. :-)

http://lewisandclarktrail.com/hunting.htm
Stupid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 12:20   #72
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stupid View Post
Well, that explains it.

"On several occasions Private Shannon was sent out into the wilderness and found himself lost. The first time this happened was on August 27th, 1804 near Yankton, South Dakota. While searching for lost horses, Private Shannon became as lost as the horses and did not find his way back to the company until September 11th. During his time on the prairie Private Shannon lived for 12 days on a few wild grapes and a rabbit. It was later discovered that he was traveling ahead of the Corps and after despairing because he could not catch up with them he returned down river towards Saint Louis and eventually found the party."



One guy went off to look for horses and got himself lost for 12 days, apparently without proper supplies (ammo) in case such a thing happened.
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 05-12-2013 at 12:21..
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 16:02   #73
bdcochran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,672
Another set of observations

I took a class in "primitive" arts taught by a guy who wrote a very good book. So there we are - people making rabbit sticks; bows; arrows.

As we do this, I am reflecting on the usage. It became obvious that just making a rabbit stick was insufficient. A typical Indian lad carried one and practiced probably daily for years. He also probably carried the same one so long as possible. You have to adjust to the rabbit stick. Each one performs slightly differently - and perhaps that difference will be a miss.

So, the instructor makes a bow and arrow. He goes to shoot it and I stop him. I comment that an Indian would not hold the bow vertically. He would hold it horizontally in front of him. In this way, if it broke, the injuries would not be to the head or eyes. And, you could expect a homemade bow in the wild eventually to break. You also had more strength on the draw and could wait to the last moment. If you held a bow vertically and with an arrow at full expansion, you would not be able to hold it very long. You could also rotate easier with a bow held horizontally. And, the Indian would lie in wait on a known deer path and wouldn't shoot over 30 yards, as Mac66 commented.

I have the utmost respect for bow hunters. They have a better knowledge of animal tracking, animal habits, and hunting techniques than the sportsman who subscribes to a gun magazine and buys the latest whiz bang firearm and who would never contemplate realistic training, much less paying for training. I first saw old guys bow hunting about 50 years ago and a chill went down my spine when I contemplated having to go up against them.
bdcochran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 18:42   #74
fwm
Senior Member
 
fwm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Near Central US
Posts: 3,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
By very definition anything that goes in a BOB takes away from something else going in. There is a space/weight limit, and anything that takes up measurable space/weight counts towards that limit. Or simply adds to it and further burdens you.

He need not specify that the laws of physics still stand in order for them to do so.
Add in the weight of the ammunition.Recoverable arrows vs hundreds of pounds for the same lead ammo.
Also, arrows can, with difficulty, be manufactured from scratch in the field. Try that when you've shot your last .223 or .308.
__________________
fwm
fwm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 18:44   #75
Warp
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
 
Warp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: NE of Atlanta
Posts: 30,337
Quote:
Originally Posted by fwm View Post
Add in the weight of the ammunition.Recoverable arrows vs hundreds of pounds for the same lead ammo.
Also, arrows can, with difficulty, be manufactured from scratch in the field. Try that when you've shot your last .223 or .308.
Hundreds of pounds in ammo?

For a BOB?

What?
__________________
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

I HIGHLY recommend Google Chrome and Adblock to all world wide web users. (I would have left GT a long time ago without these extensions!)

Last edited by Warp; 05-12-2013 at 18:44..
Warp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 19:02   #76
bdcochran
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,672
People are becoming testy again.

BOB and reality. My mentor is a 77 year old former paratrooper with back pain. Disregarding everything else, what do you think that the chances are of him hoofing 20 miles a day when shtf? Not very high.

There is a great distance between obtaining someone's bow at a garage sale and buying a take down bow that is sized for oneself. A bowman will confirm that arrows take up space, that bows/arrows require constant attention and repairs and that keeping things in repair requires skills and special equipment. Ever try to put a vane on an arrow in the wilds? And with no glue no fixture and no commercial vanes?

I just spent an inordinate amount of time repairing arrows, buying spare parts and going up the learning curve in connection with bows/arrows. Obviously, I am not bugging out with a set - and I am not bugging out at all.

When was the last time any of you walked 15 miles in a day with a rifle, ammunition, and say a minimal 35 pound pack? If it was more than a few weeks ago, you aren't in shape and the reality is that you are not going very far on foot.

What does this member of the hive think? Well, having a takedown bow in a bob is just fine if:

1. you have shot 500 arrows in practice within say 3 months of bugging out;
2. if you are truly capable of walking right now 15 miles with your bug out bag; and,
3. you don't have the drag of a dog, an unfit wife or unskilled children to support on the way.

At the age of 31 when I was in top physical condition, I walked out of Afghanistan through the Khyber Pass with my late wife. My pack weighed 19 pounds. Hers weighed 21 pounds. We couldn't have carried any more weight and we were physically fit. So Warp, when people think that they can carry a lot of weight, they will learn. It is called "throw stuff away".

I also remember an earlier time when my company had to run about 3 miles at 4 pm with rifles and gear. The next day, the company had to stand down because the teenagers and 20 something kids were exhausted.

Rambo and the Bow. Remember Rambo running up temple steps in a movie in the jungle. Well, the movie actor came out of an air conditioned van and ran up the steps and went back in his air conditioned movie van. I walked up those steps years earlier with my 7 year old son and it was excruciating to do so. But, but, Rambo had a bow in the move. Yeah, so I have a bow too, but I am not a movie star.
bdcochran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2013, 19:47   #77
Stupid
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,791
Well said, bdcochran!!!
Stupid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2013, 16:53   #78
mac66
Plant the seed
 
mac66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Save America
Posts: 7,990
bdcochran, I agree with you on the bug out stuff. Most of us aren't going to be able to get very far on foot which is why I ride a bicycle almost every day for exercise. I don't really except to have to ride out of town either but I can if I need too.

In regards to bows. I don't believe they are all that hard to use, shoot, or keep up with. I recently dug out my first compound bow (Bear Whitetail Hunter). It is 30 some years old, probably hasn't been shot for 20+ years and I had no problem with shooting a batch of arrows into a ten inch circle at 20 yards with it. That's after not shooting a bow for 20 years. I've gotten better with practice. Shooting a bow is kinda like riding a bike. Once you get it, you got it.

I seriously doubt any of us are ever going to be in situation where we would have to make a bow to survive. A modern bow (anything from the last 30 years or so) will hold up and provide decades of service with little maintenance. It might be a handy skill to have for things you haven't thought of.

An example..there was guy in the paper recently in our suburban sub division who shot a coyote on his patios with a cross bow. The guy is 70 years old and used to bow hunt. Arthritis in his shoulder prevents him for using a bow anymore but he bought a cross bow when our state allowed them for hunting a few years ago. The coyote was apparently growling at his dog through the screen door, so he shot the coyote...through the screen. Even turned the carcass in for the bounty.
__________________
Every American a Rifleman

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by mac66; 05-13-2013 at 16:54..
mac66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-15-2013, 10:42   #79
fwm
Senior Member
 
fwm's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Near Central US
Posts: 3,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warp View Post
Hundreds of pounds in ammo?

For a BOB?

What?
Maybe an exaggeration, but putting my BOB together, I was surprised at how little ammo I could actually carry, compared to what I wanted to carry. One ammo box full is to heavy for a 65 year to effectively carry along with a BOB, but two or three is what is probably needed.

Anything more than a couple hundred rounds becomes to much, but if the BO becomes a self defense situation, several thousand may be what is needed over a period of a couple of months.
__________________
fwm
fwm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2013, 18:29   #80
mac66
Plant the seed
 
mac66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Save America
Posts: 7,990
New old bow

I couldn't resist buying another at a garage sale last Friday. $50 got me this 80's era Martin-Ted Nugent compound bow with all the goodies (sights, stabilizer, whisker biscuit, etc) on it. Plus I got 9 NIB Silver tip switch blade razor heads, two trigger releases and a extra sight for one of my other bows. This one is ready to hunt deer, zombies, aliens or what ever. I know bows are not survival cool but I'm gonna play and hunt with this one anyway.

Survival/Preparedness Forum
__________________
Every American a Rifleman

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Last edited by mac66; 06-03-2013 at 08:03..
mac66 is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 18:51.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,191
376 Members
815 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31