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Old 05-03-2013, 09:50   #201
SC Tiger
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It's coming. Next spring, the new Mustang will have IRS.

I hope it loses 500Lbs too.
Didn't the Cobra have that back in the late '90s? Why was it not carried over?

That is one thing Chevrolet got right on the new Camaro.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:55   #202
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Didn't the Cobra have that back in the late '90s? Why was it not carried over?

That is one thing Chevrolet got right on the new Camaro.
Dunno about the 90s IRS. But cost is one reason they're still with a live axel, plus the after-market that exists for the current live axel rear ends.

Buddy has a Camaro, and while it is gorgeous and fast, sitting in it is like sitting in a bunker. I have never seen such poor outward visibility.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:58   #203
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When was the last time you were in a Mustang? The current cars have vastly improved interiors. Granted, they're not quite BMW levels, but neither is the cost of ownership/maintenance/repairs.

I agree that current Mustangs are not destined to be (in the short-term, like 15-20 years) collector cars. But, with time, all cars become collectable if they're old enough to be rare by the attrition of years, and in good condition.

As far as "World Class", the current Mustang is the performance equivalent of a current M3, so that's a great performance leve to be at, at 2/3rds or less the price.
Last Mustang I drove was the current model last week... Convertible. I rent them frequently. Yes, lots better but way behind many cars. Other Ford products such as the top model Fushion hybrid I recently rented have very nice interiors.

Their fixed rear axle is well designed and I've seem tests to validate their track ability.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:58   #204
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When the new Mustangs get IRS then I can begin to take them seriously.

That is a completely ignorant statement...

So, I take it you take a Honda Ridgeline seriously because it has IRS?

The current generation of Mustangs are quite capable of meeting and beating the performance levels of the vaulted BMW M3.

Your statement is on par with saying you'll start taking 1911s seriously when they have a polymer frame...
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:58   #205
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Dunno about the 90s IRS. But cost is one reason they're still with a live axel, plus the after-market that exists for the current live axel rear ends.

Buddy has a Camaro, and while it is gorgeous and fast, sitting in it is like sitting in a bunker. I have never seen such poor outward visibility.
I kind of wondered about the small windows on the Camaro.

Leave it to Chevrolet to take something with that much potential and #### it up.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:59   #206
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That is a completely ignorant statement...

So, I take it you take a Honda Ridgeline seriously because it has IRS?

The current generation of Mustangs are quite capable of meeting and beating the performance levels of the vaulted BMW M3.

Your statement is on par with saying you'll start taking 1911s seriously when they have a polymer frame...
Straight line or on a road course (where the M3 is know for being fantastic)?
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:03   #207
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Straight line or on a road course (where the M3 is know for being fantastic)?
Road course.

The Brembo PP/Track Pack cars are great handling and braking cars.

Most people still have the impression that Mustangs don't handle or brake, but that's simply not true.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:07   #208
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That is a completely ignorant statement...
..
Your opinion.
I wrote that I can then take it seriously.
I was expressing what I value in a performance car.
What I value.... is that OK with you?

Your attitude is unnecessarily belligerent.
If you are satisfied with an ancient suspension design, then enjoy it to the fullest.

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.
The current generation of Mustangs are quite capable of meeting and beating the performance levels of the vaulted BMW M3.
Perhaps on a smooth road or track..

In the real world, when you are 98% into that curve at speed and one rear wheel hits a bump, that axle is gonna rock like a rowboat.
That's when cornering and traction suffers.
It's inevitable, inherent in the design... can't be helped.



Ford has done as good a job in tuning the dynamics of a live axle as anyone possibly could.

If a live axle is so good, why would they be going to an IRS for the new models?



And, I believe you meant "vaunted", not "vaulted".
I'm sure it was only a typo and you know the difference, right?


.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:09   #209
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I stumbled across a Car & Driver article about a year ago that pitted a Mustang GT against BMW M3 on the track and it was too close to call a winner.

The wine and cheese auto guys were stunned by the results, as was I...
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:12   #210
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In the real world, when you are 98% into that curve at speed and one rear wheel hits a bump, that axle is gonna rock like a rowboat.
That's when cornering and traction suffers.
It's inevitable, inherent in the design... can't be helped.

Ford has done as good a job in tuning the dynamics of a live axle as anyone possibly could.

If a live axle is so good, why would they be going to an IRS for the new models?
That's a good question actually.

There are live-axel suspensions mods that can turn them into incredible handling cars. Simple stuff that isn't that expensive. You could buy a 35K 5.0 Brembo car, invest 3K into the suspension and a tune, and destroy an M3 on a road course for half the price.

But IRS also is better for NVH and such.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:15   #211
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The Ferrari 250 GTO, a very successful racing car that handled well, had a suspension virtually identical to the Mustang.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:19   #212
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And yep, I'm interested in a polymer-framed 1911.
Wilson Combat has had one for about 8 years, and I saw recently that one of the larger firearms makers is producing a plastic 1911 as well.

I've a very nice mil-spec Springfield...
Love it.

If I'm going in harm's way though, my Glock G36 is always my first choice.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:24   #213
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Just to clarify, if you haven't driven a current Brembo PP/Track Pack 5.0 Mustang.

No, they're not going to drive like a Miata, S2000, BRZ, or any sub-3kLB true sports car. But they brake and grip very, very well. Do they feel light? No, as you mentioned, they are a bit heavy at 3600lbs. Still, lighter than a Camaro or M3.

They are immense fun to drive, with 0 under-steer, incredible grip, and face-planting brakes. Plus, ya know, there's that motor.

Collector car? No. Great car to drive? Yes.
I don't disagree with anything you've said. I was trying to stick to the OP and offer what I would be using as criteria to judge the type of car he should get. There are many cars that outperform many other cars, but the experience is what I'm after not numbers.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:27   #214
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The Ferrari 250 GTO, a very successful racing car that handled well, had a suspension virtually identical to the Mustang.
Thankfully Ferrari's and most other cars (except the Mustang ) have evolved from the early 60's.

300 hp from a V12!
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:41   #215
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When was the last time you were in a Mustang? The current cars have vastly improved interiors. Granted, they're not quite BMW levels, but neither is the cost of ownership/maintenance/repairs.

I agree that current Mustangs are not destined to be (in the short-term, like 15-20 years) collector cars. But, with time, all cars become collectable if they're old enough to be rare by the attrition of years, and in good condition.

As far as "World Class", the current Mustang is the performance equivalent of a current M3, so that's a great performance leve to be at, at 2/3rds or less the price.
You can't have driven a BMW M3 and be saying that - so you must be quoting that absurd, agenda-driven Motor Trend article - you know, the one where the BMW was shod with Continental ContiSportContact 3's when every M3 on the planet, mine included, comes with the wider Michelin Pilot Sport 2's.

Quoting from that article, "the BMW is faster because of its superior shock control at high speed, it has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."

If you lived closer I'd let you drive mine to see how it compares with your Mustang. I did drive a friend's Boss 302 before I bought the M3. I found it to be plagued with axle-tramp from its live axle, hard shifting, possessed of a long travel- high effort clutch, prone to nose diving under braking and to be a terminal understeerer. Did I mention the plastic-fantastic interior so devoid of features as to not even have a telescopic steering wheel? I grant that at 2/3rd's the price of the M3, the Mustang is a performance bargain, but once behind the wheel, there is no comparison.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:46   #216
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You can't have driven a BMW M3 and be saying that - so you must be quoting that absurd, agenda-driven Motor Trend article - you know, the one where the BMW was shod with Continental ContiSportContact 3's when every M3 on the planet, mine included, comes with the wider Michelin Pilot Sport 2's.

Quoting from that article, "the BMW is faster because of its superior shock control at high speed, it has very little nose dive, very little brake dive, which gives me more confidence as a driver. It's more refined, a more conservative car than the Mustang is and far better controlled."
If you lived closer I'd let you drive mine to see how it compares with your Mustang. I did drive a friend's Boss 302 before I bought the M3. I found it to be plagued with axle-tramp from its live axle, hard shifting, possessed of a long travel- high effort clutch, prone to nose diving under braking and to be a terminal understeerer. Did I mention the plastic-fantastic interior so devoid of features as to not even have a telescopic steering wheel? I grant that at 2/3rd's the price of the M3, the Mustang is a performance bargain, but once behind the wheel, there is no comparison.

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Post your window sticker, I'll post mine.

For the 30K difference, I'll take my car every day.....because I'm poor.

Is the M3 a better car? Yes, no doubt about it. They're awesome, beautifully built cars. For the money? Not what I would spend.

I would also question which Mustang you actually drove. BOSS Mustangs do not have the brake dive, etc., that regular Mustangs do. And very little axel tramp, which can be cured very easily and cheaply.

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:53   #217
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Post your window sticker, I'll post mine.
Show me a pic of your car instead.

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For the 30K difference, I'll take my car every day.

Is the M3 a better car? Yes, no doubt about it. They're awesome, beautifully built cars. For the money? Not a good value, if performance is your thing.

I would also question which Mustang you actually drove. BOSS Mustangs do not have the brake dive, etc., that regular Mustangs do. And very little axel tramp.
You, apparently, haven't driven the car - or at least haven't driven it hard.
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Old 05-03-2013, 10:55   #218
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You, apparently, haven't driven the car - or at least haven't driven it hard.
Have you driven a 2011-2012 BOSS?

I have not, but I am a member at AFM.com.

None of the BOSS owners have complained about brake dive/axel hop, and they drive them hard.....at tracks.

In fact, they all rave about the suspension, in comparison to non-BOSS Mustangs.

I will add, that most Mustang enthusiast owners are more about looks and 1/4 times, rather than balanced track prowess. I am always miffed when new Mustang owners are more worried about lowering their cars, and different rims, rather than true performance.

With the Brambo PP/Track Pack cars, replacing the factory struts & shocks with up-graded, adjustable units, should eliminate the brake dive. Panhard bars remove the axel hop. So getting a Mustang to handle well is actually quite cheap and easy, if you don't start with a base car.

The Okie Corral

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Old 05-03-2013, 10:55   #219
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I'd love an M3...but I opted for this instead:

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Old 05-03-2013, 11:14   #220
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The primary advantage if the IFS is the reduction of unsprung weight. I was only pointing out that a rigid axle can be made to handle, I was not calling it superior.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:20   #221
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And yep, I'm interested in a polymer-framed 1911.
Wilson Combat has had one for about 8 years, and I saw recently that one of the larger firearms makers is producing a plastic 1911 as well.

I've a very nice mil-spec Springfield...
Love it.

If I'm going in harm's way though, my Glock G36 is always my first choice.

.
A polymer 1911 is as authentic as Olive Garden is to Italian food. Yes, that disgusting.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:39   #222
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1) To the OP, if it hasn't been mentioned grab a later model NSX. They are sexy as hell, still. Attention grabbing. Not a DD car but definitely a good car to park in front at valet. Plus good condition used ones are right in your price range.


Quote:
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Didn't the Cobra have that back in the late '90s? Why was it not carried over?

That is one thing Chevrolet got right on the new Camaro.
2) I am amazed to see the Mustang/Camaro/M3 debate going on in a gun forum.

3) To answer the question: In 2003 and 2004 Ford SVT Cobra Mustangs, nick-named "Terminators" had IRS along with a 32v 4.6ZL V8 and a matched Eaton M112 supercharger.

While still the same SN95 chassis as the rest of the Mustang line-up it was much more expensive to produce to make it a standard feature at Ford's desired price point. This thought continued to the S197 chassis in 2005. However the traditional 4-link rear axle with quad shocks (better for drag racing) was dumped in favor of an older three link method utilizing a panhard bar (better for negotiating turns).

The S197 chassis has been evolved continually since 2005. Based on customer feedback and race programs the 2011+ chassis have much improved driving dynamics even with a solid rear axle.

3) This is no different an argument than: 9mm vs .40 S&W vs .45 ACP. Each have pluses and minuses. I've spent enough time on road courses and autocrosses to tell you each one is an amazing vehicle in the right hands.

In mine, I prefer a .45 ACP and my 2014 Mustang GT with a track package. (It's the fourth Mustang I've owned: 1989 GT, 2001 GT, 2005 GT). That doesn't mean that the Guy who prefers the 9mm and an M3 isn't as effective/fast.



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Old 05-03-2013, 11:41   #223
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A polymer 1911 is as authentic as Olive Garden is to Italian food. Yes, that disgusting.
I am going to laughed at but a used Audi TTS or if you can find a rs.

all wheel drive, light fun. Add $600 of software flash and things get even more fun.

The RS is a fun beast 4 second 0-60 360 hp and its just a little different.

with the sharing of technology between the VAG business units (VW Audi Porsche Lambo) they have been producing some nice cars

best part, other than the size, it can easily be a daily driver
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:43   #224
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I am going to laughed at but a used Audi TTS or if you can find a rs.

all wheel drive, light fun. Add $600 of software flash and things get even more fun.

The RS is a fun beast 4 second 0-60 360 hp and its just a little different.

with the sharing of technology between the VAG business units (VW Audi Porsche Lambo) they have been producing some nice cars

best part, other than the size, it can easily be a daily driver
That's a great suggestion.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:45   #225
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............my 2014 Mustang GT with a track package.
Pics or it didn't happen.
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