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Old 04-22-2013, 11:30   #51
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
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Oh, and before the enevitable puff shows up to say he covers his firearm serial number up, I have attached a cut/paste of some quick/dirty state (we can get into federal later) laws why that's a bad idea.

Quote:
--- Arizona ---

13-2306. Possession of altered property; classification

A. A person who is a dealer in property and recklessly possesses
property the permanent identifying features of which, including serial
numbers or labels, have been removed or in any fashion altered is
guilty of a class 6 felony.




--- California ---

537e. (a) Any person who knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes
of, conceals, or has in his or her possession any personal property
from which the manufacturer's serial number, identification number,
electronic serial number, or any other distinguishing number or
identification mark has been removed, defaced, covered, altered, or
destroyed, is guilty of a public offense




--- Colorado ---

18-5-305. Identification number - altering - possession.

(1) A person commits the crime of altering identification number if,
with intent that identification of an article be hindered or
prevented, he obscures an identification number or in the course of
business he sells, offers for sale, leases, or otherwise disposes of
an article knowing that an identification number thereon is obscured.

(2) "Identification number" means a serial or motor number placed by
the manufacturer upon an article as a permanent individual identifying
mark.

(3) "Obscure" means to destroy, remove, alter, conceal, or deface so
as to render illegible by ordinary means of inspection.

(4) Possession of an article on which an identification number is
obscured is prima facie evidence that the person possessing it
obscured the number with intent to hinder or prevent identification of
the article, and that he knows that the identification number is
obscured, unless, prior to his arrest or the issuance of a warrant for
a search of the premises where the article is kept, whichever is
earlier, he reports possession of the article to the police or other
appropriate law enforcement agency.




--- Connecticut ---

Sec. 53-132a. Altering manufacturer's serial number.

(a) For the purposes of this section, a manufacturer's serial number
means that number or other mark which identifies any product, other
than a motor vehicle, and distinguishes it from other products of like
model and kind produced by the same manufacturer and may be punched,
impressed or affixed by plate. No person shall remove, deface, alter
or obliterate any manufacturer's serial number on any manufactured
product with intent to prevent the tracing or identification of such
product or shall knowingly sell, offer for sale, or purchase any such
product whose manufacturer's serial number has been removed, defaced,
altered or obliterated with intent to prevent the tracing or
identification of such product.




--- Delaware ---

§ 852. Receiving stolen property; presumption of knowledge.

Knowledge that property has been acquired under circumstances
amounting to theft may be presumed in the case of a person who
acquires it for a consideration which the person knows is
substantially below its reasonable value, or that a person possesses
property whose affixed identification or serial number is altered,
removed, defaced or falsified.




--- Florida ---

817.235 Personal property; removing or altering identification marks.--

(1) Except as otherwise provided by law, any person who, with intent
to prevent identification by the true owner, removes, erases, defaces,
or otherwise alters any serial number or other mark of identification
placed on any item of personal property by the manufacturer or owner
thereof is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as
provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

(2) Any person who possesses any item of personal property with the
knowledge that the serial number or other mark of identification
placed thereon by the manufacturer or owner thereof has been removed,
erased, defaced, or otherwise altered with intent to prevent
identification by the true owner is guilty of a misdemeanor of the
first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.




--- Hawaii ---

§708-838 Removal of identification marks.

A person commits the offense of removal of identification marks if

(1) The person defaces, erases, or otherwise alters any serial number
or identification mark placed or inscribed by the manufacturer, or

(2) The person knowingly, to conceal the true ownership of the
property of another, defaces, erases, or otherwise alters any serial
number or identification mark placed or inscribed

on any bicycle, movable or immovable construction tool or equipment,
appliance, merchandise, or other article for the purpose of
identifying the bicycle, movable or immovable tool or equipment,
appliance, merchandise or other article or its component parts, with a
value of more than $50. A person removes identification marks if the
person attempts to or succeeds in erasing, defacing, altering, or
removing a serial number or identification mark or part thereof, on
the property of another.


§708-839 Unlawful possession.

It shall be unlawful for any person to possess any bicycle, movable
construction tool or equipment, appliance, merchandise, or other
article, or any part thereof

(1) Where the serial number or identification mark placed on the same
by the manufacturer for the purpose of identification, or

(2) Knowing the serial number or identification mark placed on the
same for the purpose of identification,

has been erased, altered, changed or removed for the purpose of
changing the identity of the foregoing items.




--- Indiana ---

IC 35-43-4-2.3
Dealing in altered property

(b) A dealer who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally buys or
sells personal property in which the identification number or
manufacturer's serial number has been removed, altered, obliterated,
or defaced commits dealing in altered property, a Class A misdemeanor.




--- Iowa ---

714.8 Fraudulent practices defined.

A person who does any of the following acts is guilty of a fraudulent practice:
(...)
5. Removes, alters or defaces any serial or other identification
number , or any owners' identification mark, from any property not the
person's own.




--- Kentucky ---

514.120 Obscuring identity of machine or other property.

(1) A person is guilty of obscuring the identity of a machine or other
property when he:
(a) Removes, defaces, covers, alters, destroys, or otherwise obscures the
manufacturer's serial number or any other distinguishing identification number
or mark, including property marked with a Social Security number or motor
vehicle operator's license number for identification purposes, upon any
automobile or other propelled vehicle, machine, or electrical or mechanical
device, or other property (including any part thereof) with intent to render it or
other property unidentifiable; or
(b) Possesses any automobile or other propelled vehicle, machine, or electrical or
mechanical device, or other property (including any part thereof) knowing that
the serial number or other identification number or mark, including property
marked with a Social Security number for identification purposes, has been
removed, defaced, covered, altered, destroyed, or otherwise obscured.




--- Louisiana ---

RS32:726
§726. Destruction or alteration of distinguishing number or mark

A. No person shall with fraudulent intent deface, destroy or alter
the manufacturer's serial or engine number or other distinguishing
number or identification mark of a motor vehicle nor shall any person
place or stamp any serial, engine, or other number or mark upon a
motor vehicle, except one assigned thereto by the commissioner. Any
violation of this provision is a misdemeanor.


RS14:203
§203. Electrical appliances, sale without original factory serial
number prohibited; penalty

No person shall offer to sell or cause to be sold or distributed
either retail or wholesale, new household appliances, such as radios,
television sets, refrigerators, washing machines, ironers, dryers, gas
or electric ranges, air conditioners, without the appliance having the
original factory serial number indicated thereon provided it is the
custom of the manufacturer to place serial numbers on the appliances.




--- Maine ---

§705. Criminal simulation

1. A person is guilty of criminal simulation if:
(...)
D. With intent to defraud and to prevent identification:

(1) He alters, removes or obscures the manufacturer's serial number or
any other distinguishing identification number, mark or symbol upon
any automobile, snowmobile, outboard motor, motorboat, aircraft or any
other vehicle or upon any machine, firearm or other object; or

(2) He possesses any such object or any such item after that number
has been altered, removed or obscured.




--- Maryland ---

§ 6-306. Serial number - Alteration and sale of good.

(a) Prohibited - Alteration.- A person may not remove, deface, or
obliterate a manufacturer's serial number that is punched on or
affixed by plate to a manufactured good with the intent to prevent
tracing or identifying that good.

(b) Same - Sale of good.- Except as provided in § 14-107(m) of the
Transportation Article, a person may not knowingly keep or offer for
sale a manufactured good from which the manufacturer's serial number
has been removed, defaced, or obliterated in violation of subsection
(a) of this section.




--- Michigan ---

750.536a Rendering goods or property unidentifiable; possession or
sale of goods or property with identifying number obscured, defaced,
altered, obliterated, removed, destroyed, or otherwise concealed or
disguised.

Sec. 536a.

(1) A person who obscures, defaces, alters, obliterates, removes,
destroys, or otherwise conceals or disguises any registration, serial,
or other identifying number embossed, engraved, carved, stamped,
welded, or otherwise placed or situated in or upon goods or property
held for sale in the ordinary course of business with the intent to
render the goods or property unidentifiable shall be guilty of a
misdemeanor.

(2) A person who is a dealer in or collector of any merchandise or
personal property or the agent, employee, or representative of a
dealer or collector and who possesses goods or property with the
intent to sell the goods or property in the ordinary course of
business knowing the registration, serial, or other identifying number
has been obscured, defaced, altered, obliterated, removed, destroyed,
or otherwise concealed or disguised shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

(3) A person who is a dealer or collector of any merchandise or
personal property or the agent, employee, or representative of a
dealer or collector and who sells goods or property in the ordinary
course of business knowing that the registration, serial, or other
identifying number has been obscured, defaced, altered, obliterated,
removed, destroyed, or otherwise concealed or disguised shall be
guilty of a misdemeanor.




--- Minnesota ---

609.52 Theft.

Subd. 2. Acts constituting theft. Whoever does any
of the following commits theft and may be sentenced as provided
in subdivision 3:
(...)
(11) with the intent to prevent the identification of
property involved, so as to deprive the rightful owner of
possession thereof, alters or removes any permanent serial
number, permanent distinguishing number or manufacturer's
identification number on personal property or possesses, sells
or buys any personal property knowing or having reason to know
that the permanent serial number, permanent distinguishing
number or manufacturer's identification number has been removed
or altered




--- Missouri ---

Alteration or removal of item numbers with intent to deprive lawful owner.

570.085. 1. A person commits the crime of alteration or removal of
item numbers if he, with the purpose of depriving the owner of a
lawful interest therein:

(1) Destroys, removes, covers, conceals, alters, defaces, or causes to
be destroyed, removed, covered, concealed, altered, or defaced, the
manufacturer's original serial number or other distinguishing
owner-applied number or mark, on any item which bears a serial number
attached by the manufacturer or distinguishing number or mark applied
by the owner of the item, for any reason whatsoever;

(2) Sells, offers for sale, pawns or uses as security for a loan, any
item on which the manufacturer's original serial number or other
distinguishing owner-applied number or mark has been destroyed,
removed, covered, concealed, altered, or defaced; or

(3) Buys, receives as security for a loan or in pawn, or in any manner
receives or has in his possession any item on which the manufacturer's
original serial number or other distinguishing owner-applied number or
mark has been destroyed, removed, covered, concealed, altered, or
defaced.




--- Montana ---

45-6-326. Obscuring the identity of a machine.

(1) A person commits the offense of obscuring the identity of a machine if he:
(a) removes, defaces, covers, alters, destroys, or otherwise
obscures the manufacturer's serial number or any other distinguishing
identification number or mark upon any machine, vehicle, electrical
device, or firearm with the purpose to conceal, misrepresent, or
transfer any such machine, vehicle, electrical device, or firearm; or
(b) possesses with the purpose to conceal, misrepresent, or
transfer any machine, vehicle, device, or firearm knowing that the
serial number or other identification number or mark has been removed
or otherwise obscured.
(2) A person convicted of obscuring the identity of a machine
shall be fined not to exceed $500 or be imprisoned in the county jail
for a term not to exceed 6 months, or both.
(3) The fact of possession or transfer of any such machine,
vehicle, electrical device, or firearm creates a presumption that the
person knew the serial number or other identification number or mark
had been removed or otherwise obscured.




--- Nevada ---

NRS 205.275 Offense involving stolen property: Definition; penalty;
restitution; prima facie evidence; determination of value of property.

5. Possession by any person of three or more items of the same or a
similar class or type of personal property on which a permanently
affixed manufacturer?s serial number or manufacturer?s identification
number has been removed, altered or defaced, is prima facie evidence
that the person has violated this section.




--- New Hampshire ---

637:7-a Possession of Property Without Serial Number.

I. No person shall knowingly remove, deface, alter, change, destroy,
obliterate or mutilate, or cause to be removed, defaced, altered,
changed, destroyed, obliterated or mutilated the identifying number or
numbers or any other identifying mark on any machine, mechanical or
electrical device or any other property. Anyone doing so with the
intent thereby to conceal the identity of the item or to defraud a
manufacturer, seller or purchaser, or to hinder competition in the
areas of sales and servicing, or to prevent the detection of a crime
shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
II. Any person who buys, receives, possesses, sells or disposes of
any machine, mechanical or electrical device or any other property
knowing that the identification number or numbers or any other
identifying mark on the item have been removed, defaced, altered,
changed, destroyed, obliterated or mutilated shall be guilty of a
misdemeanor. However, if a person discovering that the identification
number or numbers or any other identifying mark have been removed,
defaced, altered, changed, destroyed, obliterated or mutilated shall
report the same to the nearest police station, he shall not be charged
with violating this section. Further, said provisions do not apply to
those persons who, on August 13, 1977, are lawfully in possession of
that type of property described in paragraph I which does not have
identifying numbers or marks or from which the identifying marks or
numbers have been lost inadvertently.




--- New Jersey ---

2C:20-7.1. Fencing

a. Possession of altered property. Any dealer in property who knew
or should have known that the identifying features such as serial
numbers and permanently affixed labels of property in his possession
have been removed or altered without the consent of the manufacturer
is guilty of possession of altered property. It is a defense to a
prosecution under this subsection that a person lawfully possesses the
usual indicia of ownership in addition to mere possession.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:30   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
You've never dealt with people, much less criminals, on a large/frequent basis.

People (bad guys) do all kinds of things for reasons that make sense to "them".

Sometimes they think a discovery is inevitable and believe they can charm/bluff their way through.

Sometimes they are trying to get you to drop your guard.

There are tons of reasons, and I've seen people do/say things that boggle the mind, and all of them made "sense" to the person at the time.
So because a few people (ie criminals in this case) do "bad" things, then we should treat ALL people as if they are criminals first, generally law-abiding citizens second?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I'm still waiting to hear something from a LEO that would justify taking his weapon in this case to run it to see if it was stolen.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:30   #53
TBO
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continuded

Quote:
--- North Carolina ---

§ 14?160.1. Alteration, destruction or removal of permanent
identification marks from personal property.

(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to alter, deface,
destroy or remove the permanent serial number, manufacturer's
identification plate or other permanent, distinguishing number or
identification mark from any item of personal property with the intent
thereby to conceal or misrepresent the identity of said item.

(b) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to sell, buy
or be in possession of any item of personal property, not his own, on
which the permanent serial number, manufacturer's identification plate
or other permanent, distinguishing number or identification mark has
been altered, defaced, destroyed or removed for the purpose of
concealing or misrepresenting the identity of said item.




--- North Dakota ---

12.1-23-08.2. Possession of altered property.

1. A person is guilty of the offense of possession of altered property
if he possesses
property the identifying features of which, including serial numbers
or labels, have
been removed or in any fashion altered, knowing the serial number or identification
mark placed on the same by the manufacturer or owner for the purpose of
identification, has been erased, altered, changed, or removed for the purpose of
changing the identity of such personal property.




--- Oklahoma ---

§21?1546. Removing, defacing, altering or obliterating ? Subsequent sale.

Any person, firm or corporation who removes, defaces, alters, changes,
destroys, covers, obliterates or makes a substitution of any
trademark, distinguishing or identification number, serial number or
mark, on or from any machine or electrical or mechanical device or
apparatus, and thereafter sells or resells or offers for sale or
resale the same in such condition, is guilty of a misdemeanor.


§21?1547. Person acquiring machine or device with mark removed, altered, etc.

Any person, firm or corporation who acquires, for the purpose of sale
or resale and possesses any machine or electrical or mechanical device
or apparatus, or any of the parts thereof, from or on which any
trademark, distinguishing or identification number, serial number or
mark has been removed, covered, altered, changed, defaced, destroyed,
obliterated or substituted for, is guilty of a misdemeanor, unless
within ten (10) days after such machine or electrical or mechanical
device or apparatus, or any such part thereof, shall have come into
his or its possession, said person, firm or corporation files with the
chief law enforcement officer of the municipality in which the machine
or electrical or mechanical device or apparatus or any such part
thereof is located, or to the county sheriff of the county wherein
said property is located if not within a municipality, a verified
statement showing: The source of his or its title, identification or
distinguishing number or serial number or mark, if known, and, if
known, the manner of and reason for such mutilation, change,
alteration, concealment, defacement or substitution, the length of
time such machine or electrical or mechanical device or apparatus or
part has been held, and the price paid therefor, and provided further,
that any and all such verified statements shall be available for
inspection by any interested person.




--- Rhode Island ---

§ 11-18-23 Defacement or alteration of manufacturer's serial number.

Any person who: (1) willfully removes, defaces, covers, alters, or
destroys the manufacturer's serial number or any other distinguishing
number or identification mark on any machine or any electrical or
mechanical device for the purpose of preventing the detection of a
crime or defrauding the manufacturer or any seller or any purchaser of
the machine or the electrical or mechanical device; or (2) being a
dealer in merchandise or the agent, employee, or representative of a
dealer, knowingly buys, sells, receives, disposes of, conceals, or
knowingly has in his or her possession any machine or any electrical
or mechanical device from which the manufacturer's serial number or
any other distinguishing number or identification mark has been
removed, defaced, covered, altered, or destroyed for a purpose
specified in subdivision (1) of this section, is guilty of a
misdemeanor.




--- South Dakota ---

22-30A-39. Alteration or removal of serial number--Possession of
property with altered serial number--Felony.

Any person who, without consent of the owner, intentionally alters,
obliterates, or removes a serial number or other identifying mark on
personal property, or possesses any personal property knowing that the
property has a serial number or identifying mark which has been
intentionally obliterated, altered, or removed, which number or
marking may be used to determine ownership of the property, is guilty
of a Class 6 felony.




--- Tennessee ---

39-14-134. Alteration of item's permanent distinguishing numbers -
Sale or possession of such item.

(a) A person commits a Class A misdemeanor who knowingly and with the
intent to conceal or misrepresent the identity of an item:

(1) Alters, covers, defaces, destroys or removes the permanent serial
number, manufacturer's identification plate or other permanent
distinguishing number from such item; or

(2) Sells, buys or has possession of such item.




--- Texas ---

§ 31.11. TAMPERING WITH IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS.

(a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) knowingly or intentionally removes, alters, or
obliterates the serial number or other permanent identification
marking on tangible personal property; or
(2) possesses, sells, or offers for sale tangible
personal property and:
(A) the actor knows that the serial number or
other permanent identification marking has been removed, altered,
or obliterated; or
(B) a reasonable person in the position of the
actor would have known that the serial number or other permanent
identification marking has been removed, altered, or obliterated.




--- Virginia ---

§ 18.2-96.1. Identification of certain personalty.

C. It shall be unlawful for any person to remove, alter, deface,
destroy, conceal, or otherwise obscure the manufacturer's serial
number or marks, including personalty marked with a social security
number preceded by the letters "VA," from such personal property or
any part thereof, without the consent of the owner, with intent to
render it or other property unidentifiable.

D. It shall be unlawful for any person to possess such personal
property or any part thereof, without the consent of the owner,
knowing that the manufacturer's serial number or any other
distinguishing identification number or mark, including personalty
marked with a social security number preceded by the letters "VA," has
been removed, altered, defaced, destroyed, concealed, or otherwise
obscured with the intent to violate the provisions of this section.




--- Washington ---

RCW 9A.56.180
Obscuring the identity of a machine.

(1) A person is guilty of obscuring the identity of a machine if he knowingly:

(a) Obscures the manufacturer's serial number or any other
distinguishing identification number or mark upon any vehicle,
machine, engine, apparatus, appliance, or other device with intent to
render it unidentifiable; or

(b) Possesses a vehicle, machine, engine, apparatus, appliance, or
other device held for sale knowing that the serial number or other
identification number or mark has been obscured.

(2) "Obscure" means to remove, deface, cover, alter, destroy, or
otherwise render unidentifiable.

(3) Obscuring the identity of a machine is a gross misdemeanor.


RCW 19.60.066
Prohibited acts -- Penalty.

It is a gross misdemeanor under chapter 9A.20 RCW for:

(1) Any person to remove, alter, or obliterate any manufacturer's
make, model, or serial number, personal identification number, or
identifying marks engraved or etched upon an item of personal property
that was purchased, consigned, or received in pledge. In addition an
item shall not be accepted for pledge or a second-hand purchase where
the manufacturer's make, model, or serial number, personal
identification number, or identifying marks engraved or etched upon an
item of personal property has been removed, altered, or obliterated
.....
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:33   #54
TBO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kensb2 View Post
So because a few people (ie criminals in this case) do "bad" things, then we should treat ALL people as if they are criminals first, generally law-abiding citizens second?

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I'm still waiting to hear something from a LEO that would justify taking his weapon in this case to run it to see if it was stolen.
Property that is easily transportable and frequently stolen is fair game for a Cop to run the serial number on if/when they come across it in the course of performing their duties.

This traffic stop is a good example of that.

Going door to door and demanding to look at and run the serial numbers of your firearms would be improper.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:36   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beretta92guy View Post
"he took my Glock and ran it to make sure it was not stolen gave it back unloaded".......

this has always annoyed me when i hear of someone pulled over for a traffic stop....

why do they have to check if your gun is "stolen" when you get pulled over for a traffic violation???

so he runs your tags....your car is not stolen....runs your liscence, you are not a wanted fugitive......so WHY run your gun to see if its stolen???? especially if you have a valid CCW

why not run your cell phone to see if its stolen???.....run the bag of groceries you've got in the back seat to see if you stole them??.....run the boombox you have in the passenger seat to see if its stolen???? you get the idea!!!!
I guess they could run all that stuff for you if you don't mind waiting, except for the groceries; everyone knows "ribs ain't got no serial numbers"
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Last edited by BamaTrooper; 04-22-2013 at 11:37..
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:40   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalton Wayne View Post
In Florida you don't have to advise I just feel more comfortable laying all my cards on the table so there are no surprise's Don't really want a gun pointed me should he see I'm carrying and didn't tell him...
I have done the same thing here in Indiana and it always has ended up with the officer thanking me and then writing a warning.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:49   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvanpelt View Post
Point well taken. I used to feel the same way about this. However, we had a situation here in Nebraska several years ago where a State patrolman pulled over a vehicle for a minor traffic offense. A}The patrolman ran the serial number of his handgun, entered the wrong serial number by turning two numbers around, gave the guy back his handgun which was used to kill 5 people in a Nebraska bank robbery a few days later. The patrolman was so distraught afterwards knowing because he failed to run the correct serial number which should have led the criminal to be incarcerated instead, committed suicide a few days after the robbery and subsequent murders. He was survived by his wife and young boy.
Not saying that you are a bad person, B}just saying the officer was probably instructed to run a serial number of any handgun he comes across. Many lawbreakers are taken off the road because of the "just cause" law and the minor offense opened the door to apprehension.
Also, I took a hand gun into a local gun store to make a trade several years back. I'm certain the salesman took it in the back and ran the serial number to make sure it wasn't stolen.
Timothy McVeigh was pulled over for a cracked tail light lens and was subsequently apprehended and later executed for the bombing in Oklahoma.

Sincerely,
Rod
A} Was the firearm listed in a data base that would have brought it up on a check??

B} If LEO were instructed to go around kicking in doors to look for meth cook; would that make it OK?
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:52   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallschirjäger
Why do they never take people's cellphones to run the serial numbers on those to see if they've been reported stolen as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
I think that would require some level of probable cause or reasonable suspicion that cell phone was stolen to run a S/N.
But NOT a firearm????????????????????????

WHY NOT??????????

Last edited by F350; 04-22-2013 at 11:52..
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:53   #59
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:59   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbo View Post
oh, and before the enevitable puff shows up to say he covers his firearm serial number up, i have attached a cut/paste of some quick/dirty state (we can get into federal later) laws why that's a bad idea.

from batfe..

Quote:
fipb regulatory email inquiries <fipb@atf.gov>
9/19/12

to me
this is in response to your email to the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives (atf). In your email, you wanted to know if covering a serial number of a firearm with tape be constituted as obscuring.

Under federal law, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,
obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported
in interstate or foreign commerce.

Merely, attaching black tape to a firearms serial number does not constitute a violation of federal law.

Should you have additional questions, please contact your local atf office. A listing of atf office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.



Regards,

firearms industry programs branch, atf

Last edited by F350; 04-22-2013 at 12:00..
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:03   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Oh, and before the enevitable puff shows up to say he covers his firearm serial number up, I have attached a cut/paste of some quick/dirty state (we can get into federal later) laws why that's a bad idea.

FROM BATFE..

Quote:
FIPB Regulatory Email inquiries <FIPB@atf.gov>
9/19/12

to me
This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). In your email, you wanted to know if covering a serial number of a firearm with tape be constituted as obscuring.

Under Federal law, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed,
obliterated, or altered, or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported
in interstate or foreign commerce.

Merely, attaching black tape to a firearms serial number does not constitute a violation of Federal law.

Should you have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office. A listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at: http://www.atf.gov/field.



Regards,

Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF
Many "target" grips cover the serial number; I give you the S&W factory grips as one example.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:09   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychman View Post
I have done the same thing here in Indiana and it always has ended up with the officer thanking me and then writing a warning.
No obligation to inform here either, but doing so has always ended with gratitude from the officer and a warning. HH
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:14   #63
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I am going to guess that running the serial number on a gun is about the same as running a license plate number. If it is visible I guess it can be run. If the gun is in the officer's hands it apparently is visible. Some people are probably more likely to keep a record of the serial number of a gun than of say a television. Or a cell phone. And while each have model numbers it seems like the actual model number of the television is on the little tag with the serial number but on the gun there tends to be a model name i.e. P220 or Shield as opposed to 180021. That may somewhat reduce the possibility of a model number being reported instead of a serial number.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:28   #64
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Go ahead, take your gamble with State law.

Target grips are one thing, covering the serial number to cover it, go ahead.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:30   #65
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I stay at 6-8 over and never get pulled over here in AZ. I routinely see people go by cops at 12-15mph over and not get popped.

However, back in Idaho when growing up, I had my DL suspended twice by the time I was 18 for 14 tickets.

Not one of them was for more than 10mph over the limit, and most were for 5 or less over. I drove muscle cars and cops back in the 80's hated muscle cars in my area and me and my friends were constantly getting hassled.

I joined the Navy and didn't get a speeding ticket for the next 15 years...
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:36   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallschirjäger View Post
Why do they never take people's cellphones to run the serial numbers on those to see if they've been reported stolen as well?
Probably cause they aren't deadly weapons like guns and cars are.
Maybe they will in the future seeing how expensive they are getting.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:38   #67
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In Tennessee, the highway that makes it's way from Nashville to Memphis (TN 40, IF memory serves me), and the posted speed limit was 70 mph.

The speed limit signs used to say:

Speed Limit

70
No Leeway



You do 71 mph and get caught. . . . you got a citation.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:42   #68
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I'm going to sew the tag back on my mattress.
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Old 04-22-2013, 13:29   #69
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Old 04-22-2013, 13:46   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F350 View Post
FROM BATFE..



Many "target" grips cover the serial number; I give you the S&W factory grips as one example.
I have several S&W's. All of them have factory grips and the serial number is not covered up.
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Old 04-22-2013, 13:49   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by byf43 View Post
In Tennessee, the highway that makes it's way from Nashville to Memphis (TN 40, IF memory serves me), and the posted speed limit was 70 mph.

The speed limit signs used to say:


Speed Limit

70
No Leeway


You do 71 mph and get caught. . . . you got a citation.
There is a stretch of road in Roscoe, NY, Rt. 206, that has a 30mph speed limit, and the troopers have issued tickets for doing 31. I got one about 15 years ago, and know several other guys who have gotten ticketed for the same thing. The town judge doesn't cut you any slack either.
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:25   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beretta92guy View Post
why do they have to check if your gun is "stolen" when you get pulled over for a traffic violation???
Can't say for sure that this is true in this case case but in my experience, most cops are pretty bored at 4 AM and looking for things to do.
Yes, really. Things are slow and it is a bad time to give them something to do. They have time to kill so they run you through the mill. Word- don't screw up between approximately 2 AM & 5 AM. You will really stand out when there are fewer cars on the road.
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:50   #73
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I would call your insurance company and find out whether or not your rates will go up due to whatever amount of points a 9mph ticket translates into. Most allow you a certain number of points before it becomes an issue. If that's the case, just pay it and move on.
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Old 04-22-2013, 14:57   #74
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"8 is great, 9 is fine, but 10 you're mine" used to be the way things worked around here. Too bad he wouldn't cut you some slack when he saw you weren't driving impaired at that hour.
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Old 04-22-2013, 15:30   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalton Wayne View Post
the officer was very professional
Most of them are.

I've never received a speeding ticket when I wasn't speeding. I've never got one for over what I was going, and most cut me some slack and wrote it under my actual speed. That allowed a guilty plea to keep it off my MVR.
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