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Old 04-20-2013, 06:21   #76
686Owner
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Originally Posted by Trapped_in_Kali View Post
You can say no by not flying, take a boat to Europe (or where ever).
You do not have to go through TSA.
Drive to Canada & fly from there.
You do not have to go through TSA.
Your job may require it, then quit your job.
You do not have to go through TSA.
You can say no by not going through TSA
Isn't the same true for driving? You can walk, fly, take a bike etc right? Then why do the cops need cause to search your vehicle?
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:24   #77
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That's not quite accurate. The whole reason this kid was reduced to hiding under a tarp in a boat in the first place was because he couldn't simply take someone at gunpoint and hole up in their house for a few days to lick his wounds.

The house-to-house search forced him to stay mobile and use whatever cover he could find at hand...and that eventually got him caught.
How did he know they were gong house to house searching? If he had a phone to read the news why didn't they just locate him using that?
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:26   #78
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I'm just not sure what allowing the police to search your home accomplishes. Answer your door, "Officers, I have not seen him, he is not here. I have checked all my entrances and they are secure. Feel free to let your dog sniff around the perimeter. Bye." If he is truly not in your home, allowing a search is just wasting their time.

So now consider the scenario that the suspect was somehow able to break into your house and is holding your family hostage. You answer the door just like before, except tell them the situation. "Officers, he is holding my family hostage in the basement. He told me to answer my door and tell you everything was fine. If anything looks wrong, he said he will kill them. Please help." They leave just like nothing happened and start planning how they can extract the suspect.

If the suspect was holding your family hostage, do you think it would be a good idea for a few beat cops to come walking in against the demands of the suspect? Or would you rather let them plan for a while and let SWAT handle it?

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Old 04-20-2013, 06:33   #79
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
No....

A more reasonable conclusion is that the perp was grievously wounded, and in no condition to kick in a door and take a house down by force.

He got as far as his shattered body could take him, and crawled into what little hole he could find....in a boat.

The search meant nothing to the perp, he was unconscious and near death when found.

Your statement also assumes that the perp wasn't concerned about NOT being in a home, as if being outside in a boat was safer for him, as if the LEOs were only searching inside homes, and not in yards and associated structures like garages.

I can assure you, that wasn't the case.
Base on what the homeowner who found him said, it appears the bomber hid in the boat sometime during the day. The homeowner said his house was searched (at some point during the day) and he and the cops saw nothing amiss. Then that evening he came out and saw that something was amiss.

The large presence of LE in the neighborhood definitely impeded the bomber from escaping. If there had been no police presence to do the searches, and there were no cops on the streets, then the BG had something like 15 to 17 hours (from say 2 AM Friday morning to about 7 PM Friday evening) to make good his escape. And at 2 AM when he was making his initial escape, he was well enough (and pumped full of adrenline) to make good his escape (or enter a home to hold hostages) if there had been no police manhunt/presence.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:48   #80
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Base on what the homeowner who found him said, it appears the bomber hid in the boat sometime during the day. The homeowner said his house was searched (at some point during the day) and he and the cops saw nothing amiss. Then that evening he came out and saw that something was amiss.

The large presence of LE in the neighborhood definitely impeded the bomber from escaping. If there had been no police presence to do the searches, and there were no cops on the streets, then the BG had something like 15 to 17 hours (from say 2 AM Friday morning to about 7 PM Friday evening) to make good his escape. And at 2 AM when he was making his initial escape, he was well enough (and pumped full of adrenline) to make good his escape (or enter a home to hold hostages) if there had been no police manhunt/presence.
Maybe if they hadn't wasted time searching inside of secure houses he would have been found hours earlier.
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:58   #81
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If you don't mind it and consent to it, it's not violating anything. That's the whole point.
Ding, Ding,Ding we have a winner!
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:10   #82
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I just want to know how did they possibly loose the 2nd suspect in the first place when there was prob 100+ cops following him when the first suspect got out to shoot at the cops. Suspect 2 continued to drive off in a vehicle they were tracking with on board GPS...
Every police pursuit I have seen on TV and a couple pass me in person when I lived in LA, they never lost the bad guy... no one thought to shoot out all the tires on the vehicle during the first encounter?
He was in an suv not an armored car. With all those shots, how do u not incapacitate the driver and vehicle?

Thus no need for a door to door search in the first place... they should have at least found the suspect vehicle abandoned and used dogs. Peferably bloodhounds to track the suspect. Anyone who has ever been involved in S&R knows a bloodhound is a nose with a dog attached to it...

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Old 04-20-2013, 07:15   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Base on what the homeowner who found him said, it appears the bomber hid in the boat sometime during the day. The homeowner said his house was searched (at some point during the day) and he and the cops saw nothing amiss. Then that evening he came out and saw that something was amiss.

The large presence of LE in the neighborhood definitely impeded the bomber from escaping. If there had been no police presence to do the searches, and there were no cops on the streets, then the BG had something like 15 to 17 hours (from say 2 AM Friday morning to about 7 PM Friday evening) to make good his escape. And at 2 AM when he was making his initial escape, he was well enough (and pumped full of adrenline) to make good his escape (or enter a home to hold hostages) if there had been no police manhunt/presence.
See bolded

You seem to want to blur lines here. There is no problem with the massive police presence which I'm sure is why he was hiding in the boat. But no evidence has been made public suggesting that police going into houses is what pushed him to hide in the boat instead. It isn't one or the other.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:21   #84
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It's nice for some in our nation to see that the .gov indoctrination is truly working. It's not so nice for the rest of us.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:08   #85
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See bolded

You seem to want to blur lines here. There is no problem with the massive police presence which I'm sure is why he was hiding in the boat. But no evidence has been made public suggesting that police going into houses is what pushed him to hide in the boat instead. It isn't one or the other.
I agree. I think this photo is appropriate here.

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Old 04-20-2013, 08:09   #86
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Ding, Ding,Ding we have a winner!
Yes, that part is correct. The part disagree with is where he thinks you're wrong if you do have a problem.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:27   #87
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Nowhere in the Constitution, the commentaries by the Founding Fathers, or any editorials any of them wrote, is there ever anything about "having nothing to hide".

Apparently, the Founders felt the 'right to be secure in their person..... against unreasonable search' was a basic right We The People have. So much so, it was right up there at the top.

The whole "nothing to hide" garbage was started by despicable low bred bureaucrats trying to shift responsibility from the government to the citizen. Sadly enough, too many citizens are willing to submit to this line of thinking. They don't deserve to be free. They deserve to be locked up without charges, a trial, or a lawyer, like Jose Padilla.

What happens when you say "I have nothing to hide" and let them in, and they run straight to your medicine cabinet to make sure any of your pain pills, legally prescribed, are properly contained in the prescription bottle it is supposed to be in? The bureaucrats call this "looking for leverage", and it was said right here on the pages of Glock Talk.

Consider too, the right to a speedy trial is in the BOR. Just because our court system more often than not works to that end, doesn't mean the right is any less valuable, or should be set aside for convenience or safety.

Don't forget, those LEO riding those police assault vehicles, looking for the Boston bomber, are the same ones who will gladly kick you door and destroy your life because you didn't comply with their edict to surrender your firearms or standard capacity magazines.

A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures? - Marcus Tullius Cicero

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague. -Marcus Tullius Cicero

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington

Times like these often make us forget who the true enemies of Freedom and Liberty really are. They are our government, it's agents, and it's bureaucrats. Terrorists can kills us, but our government will enslave us. - Rooster Rugburn
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:34   #88
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Man...examination of the medicine cabinet seems to be a common theme here.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:45   #89
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Originally Posted by Trapped_in_Kali View Post
You can say no by not flying, take a boat to Europe (or where ever).
You do not have to go through TSA.
Drive to Canada & fly from there.
You do not have to go through TSA.
Your job may require it, then quit your job.
You do not have to go through TSA.
You can say no by not going through TSA
My job requires air travel and I have chosen to consent, which includes surrendering some of my rights. (I'm at the top of the TSA Haters list(

If our government would let the free market decide, some airlines might offer non-TSA flights. I would choose those every time.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:52   #90
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
And if LE had decided from the start not to have any search because it would be unproductive, would this evening's result where the BG was found hiding in the boat still have happened?
He never entered a house.

Searching inside of houses will not find someone hiding outside in a boat.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:54   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn View Post
Nowhere in the Constitution, the commentaries by the Founding Fathers, or any editorials any of them wrote, is there ever anything about "having nothing to hide".

Apparently, the Founders felt the 'right to be secure in their person..... against unreasonable search' was a basic right We The People have. So much so, it was right up there at the top.

The whole "nothing to hide" garbage was started by despicable low bred bureaucrats trying to shift responsibility from the government to the citizen. Sadly enough, too many citizens are willing to submit to this line of thinking. They don't deserve to be free. They deserve to be locked up without charges, a trial, or a lawyer, like Jose Padilla.

What happens when you say "I have nothing to hide" and let them in, and they run straight to your medicine cabinet to make sure any of your pain pills, legally prescribed, are properly contained in the prescription bottle it is supposed to be in? The bureaucrats call this "looking for leverage", and it was said right here on the pages of Glock Talk.

Consider too, the right to a speedy trial is in the BOR. Just because our court system more often than not works to that end, doesn't mean the right is any less valuable, or should be set aside for convenience or safety.

Don't forget, those LEO riding those police assault vehicles, looking for the Boston bomber, are the same ones who will gladly kick you door and destroy your life because you didn't comply with their edict to surrender your firearms or standard capacity magazines.

A bureaucrat is the most despicable of men, though he is needed as vultures are needed, but one hardly admires vultures whom bureaucrats so strangely resemble. I have yet to meet a bureaucrat who was not petty, dull, almost witless, crafty or stupid, an oppressor or a thief, a holder of little authority in which he delights, as a boy delights in possessing a vicious dog. Who can trust such creatures? - Marcus Tullius Cicero

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear. The traitor is the plague. -Marcus Tullius Cicero

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. -George Washington

Times like these often make us forget who the true enemies of Freedom and Liberty really are. They are our government, it's agents, and it's bureaucrats. Terrorists can kills us, but our government will enslave us. - Rooster Rugburn
Very nice


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Old 04-20-2013, 08:55   #92
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Not so much that they don't believe you. It's more that they know a desperate, armed, cop and child murderer is on the loose in the immediate neighborhood and he could very well be sitting in your back bedroom with your wife and kids, threatening to blow their heads off if you don't tell the cops to take a hike.
And police entering the house are MORE of a danger to my wife and kid in your scenario. If he is holding hostages, do you really think that said person who is already accused of setting of a bomb would really just surrender when he is holding hostages?
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:59   #93
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See bolded

You seem to want to blur lines here. There is no problem with the massive police presence which I'm sure is why he was hiding in the boat. But no evidence has been made public suggesting that police going into houses is what pushed him to hide in the boat instead. It isn't one or the other.
I'll agree that there's no evidence made public so far. I'll go as far as to agree that if there had been no police searches and no police presence, he might still have used the boat to hid out in initially.

And I'm also saying that if the police did not conduct searches and/or show police presence during the entire day Friday, he might also have used that opportunity to further his escape. (Yes, no evidence to this either).
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:00   #94
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Originally Posted by 686Owner View Post
Maybe if they hadn't wasted time searching inside of secure houses he would have been found hours earlier.
DOH!!!

OUCH!!!

Isnt strange that people who live somewhere were much quicker at noticing something was out of place than professionals looking for him?

Some seem to forget that is was AFTER the police so much as admitted that they couldnt find him and lifted the "curfew" that he was found.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:00   #95
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I'll agree that there's no evidence made public so far. I'll go as far as to agree that if there had been no police searches and no police presence, he might still have used the boat to hid out in initially.

And I'm also saying that if the police did not conduct searches and/or show police presence during the entire day Friday, he might also have used that opportunity to further his escape. (Yes, no evidence to this either).
Police presence is different than forced searches.


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Old 04-20-2013, 09:06   #96
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I'll agree that there's no evidence made public so far. I'll go as far as to agree that if there had been no police searches and no police presence, he might still have used the boat to hid out in initially.

And I'm also saying that if the police did not conduct searches and/or show police presence during the entire day Friday, he might also have used that opportunity to further his escape. (Yes, no evidence to this either).
So your sticking to the fact that searching inside the houses is what found him? Really?
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:08   #97
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He never entered a house.

Searching inside of houses will not find someone hiding outside in a boat.
Well, I hope BPD and the FBI learned their lesson here!

Next time they're searching for a person who has shown no restraints to bomb, shoot and kill people, and who escaped into a neighborhood, don't bother checking in on the residents there.
Statistically, a waste of time.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:10   #98
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So your sticking to the fact that searching inside the houses is what found him? Really?
So you're saying if no searches were conducted, and no police presence in that neighborhood, the final ending would have been exactly the same? Really?
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:10   #99
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Well, I hope BPD and the FBI learned their lesson here!

Next time they're searching for a person who has shown no restraints to bomb, shoot and kill people, and who escaped into a neighborhood, don't bother checking in on the residents there.
Statistically, a waste of time.
Who on this thread or any other objected to the police checking in on residents?

Hell I wouldn't object to that at my house today without any bomber on the loose.


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Old 04-20-2013, 09:15   #100
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Police presence is different than forced searches.


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Isn't police presence = forced searches? As you previously pointed out, if a bunch of armed police is at your door saying they're here to check on you, how can that be consentual?
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