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Old 04-19-2013, 22:09   #51
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Not so much that they don't believe you. It's more that they know a desperate, armed, cop and child murderer is on the loose in the immediate neighborhood and he could very well be sitting in your back bedroom with your wife and kids, threatening to blow their heads off if you don't tell the cops to take a hike.
Of course that's always possible. You suppose my demeanor would be any different when compared to the first 30 houses they've searched?

So what should they do? If I tell them no, should they take me down and search the house anyway? Perhaps when the cops come in the murderer kills my family and himself. If I tell them yes my family gets killed.
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Old 04-19-2013, 22:14   #52
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well your neighbor had nothing to hide and he let us in so you should too...

Well since you say you have nothing to hide but wont let us search that's probable cause and we're coming in
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Old 04-19-2013, 22:19   #53
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Of course that's always possible. You suppose my demeanor would be any different when compared to the first 30 houses they've searched?

So what should they do? If I tell them no, should they take me down and search the house anyway? Perhaps when the cops come in the murderer kills my family and himself. If I tell them yes my family gets killed.
Everyone has different demeanors. How can the police tell if you're nervous because the killer has your family, or because you've got a bag of pot laying out on your kitchen table?

They can't.

You made a statement about the police not believing you, and I'm merely pointing out that it's not as simple as that. They're looking for a desperate killer and have to consider a lot more factors than I think you are looking at.

As for what they should do when you say no to their search, there really isn't a "right" answer. If they 'take you down' and search anyway, they're the new Gestapo, but if they respect your wishes and simply move on, they're a bunch of incompetant idiots when/if the killer slips through their fingers and kills more cops and innocents.

Situations like this are often "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" from the perspective of the cops.
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Old 04-19-2013, 22:46   #54
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Funny you didn't make any such comment when DanaT stated as fact that the search failed...

Media outlets are reporting that a citizen found him in a boat.

The search didn't find him.

There is no evidence that the search contributed anything to find him.

It is a reasonable conclusion that the search failed since the goal of the search was to find him.
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Old 04-19-2013, 22:51   #55
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Everyone has different demeanors. How can the police tell if you're nervous because the killer has your family, or because you've got a bag of pot laying out on your kitchen table?

They can't.

You made a statement about the police not believing you, and I'm merely pointing out that it's not as simple as that. They're looking for a desperate killer and have to consider a lot more factors than I think you are looking at.

As for what they should do when you say no to their search, there really isn't a "right" answer. If they 'take you down' and search anyway, they're the new Gestapo, but if they respect your wishes and simply move on, they're a bunch of incompetant idiots when/if the killer slips through their fingers and kills more cops and innocents.

Situations like this are often "damned if you do, and damned if you don't" from the perspective of the cops.
But the OP said I was a fool for declining the search. How does it make me a fool if I know the guy isn't in my house? That's the topic.
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Old 04-19-2013, 23:00   #56
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That's probably how the cops missed him. The searching cops were convinced by the homeowner that the bomber could not possibly be hiding on his/her property. And the cops moved on to the next property.
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Old 04-19-2013, 23:25   #57
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That's probably how the cops missed him. The searching cops were convinced by the homeowner that the bomber could not possibly be hiding on his/her property. And the cops moved on to the next property.
What I read was they had search the property previously, boat and shed as well. Later the homeowner that a door was open (to the shed) and saw blood, and then called police.

Based on what I read, you should make a different supposition.
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Old 04-19-2013, 23:33   #58
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What I read was they had search the property previously, boat and shed as well. Later the homeowner that a door was open (to the shed) and saw blood, and then called police.

Based on what I read, you should make a different supposition.
In the news conference after the arrest, the Col. of MSP said that the yard where he was located was about one block outside of the perimeter where they were searching and then added something to effect that he must have got out before they had the perimeter established the previous evening
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Old 04-19-2013, 23:34   #59
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Media outlets are reporting that a citizen found him in a boat.

The search didn't find him.

There is no evidence that the search contributed anything to find him.

It is a reasonable conclusion that the search failed since the goal of the search was to find him.
I never said that a civilian didn't find him. I said that the fact that a civilian found him doesn't mean the search failed. The search denied him the opportunity to use a house as a safe haven and forced him instead to stay on the move and use places like the boat and tarp to hide in.

A desperate, injured, armed man can often simply take a house at gunpoint and hole up or hide. Something prevented this guy from being able to do that and made him instead seek shelter under a tarp out in the open, which is what got him caught.

Now what could that something possibly be?

A reasonable conclusion would be that the fact that police were searching all of the houses denied him that opportunity for safe haven.
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Old 04-19-2013, 23:38   #60
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But the OP said I was a fool for declining the search. How does it make me a fool if I know the guy isn't in my house? That's the topic.
I have never said you were a fool and am not responsible for anyone else's comments. I'm simply pointing out that when you refuse the search, it isn't just as simple as whether the police "believe" you or not. They have to consider possibilities like whether someone might be under duress. They also have to factor your rights against the fact that there is a clear and imminent threat to every resident in the neighborhood and many innocent human lives are at stake.
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Old 04-20-2013, 00:13   #61
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
I never said that a civilian didn't find him. I said that the fact that a civilian found him doesn't mean the search failed. The search denied him the opportunity to use a house as a safe haven and forced him instead to stay on the move and use places like the boat and tarp to hide in.

A desperate, injured, armed man can often simply take a house at gunpoint and hole up or hide. Something prevented this guy from being able to do that and made him instead seek shelter under a tarp out in the open, which is what got him caught.

Now what could that something possibly be?

A reasonable conclusion would be that the fact that police were searching all of the houses denied him that opportunity for safe haven.
It's a cause and effect thing. You're extrapolating. That's my point.


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Old 04-20-2013, 00:15   #62
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
I have never said you were a fool and am not responsible for anyone else's comments. I'm simply pointing out that when you refuse the search, it isn't just as simple as whether the police "believe" you or not. They have to consider possibilities like whether someone might be under duress. They also have to factor your rights against the fact that there is a clear and imminent threat to every resident in the neighborhood and many innocent human lives are at stake.
I don't know. Are my rights dependent upon a police officers judgement? He can waive them for me if he thinks he needs to?


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Old 04-20-2013, 00:24   #63
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It's a cause and effect thing. You're extrapolating. That's my point.


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House-to-house police searches deny criminal use of homes to hide in - Cause

Criminal hides in alternate, more exposed places - effect

On the flip-side, presuming that since it wasn't a cop that actually found the criminal, it must therefore follow that the police search efforts failed is neither extrapolation, nor cause and effect reasoning - it's pure assumption.
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Old 04-20-2013, 00:31   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
House-to-house police searches deny criminal use of homes to hide in - Cause

Criminal hides in alternate, more exposed places - effect

On the flip-side, presuming that since it wasn't a cop that actually found the criminal, it must therefore follow that the police search efforts failed is neither extrapolation, nor cause and effect reasoning - it's pure assumption.
Agree.
You have to excuse the "anarchists", they tend to be somewhat "hemroidic".
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Old 04-20-2013, 00:39   #65
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I don't know. Are my rights dependent upon a police officers judgement? He can waive them for me if he thinks he needs to?


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In some cases, YES, a police officer or other official can deny you your rights based on judgement.

Example: You have a right to drive your car on a public road. A police officer stops you and orders you to turn around because a three car pile-up and fire just up the road renders the area too dangerous for passage in his judgement and could also endanger emergency workers on the scene. He can ticket or even arrest you if you insist on blowing through his roadblock after being ordered to turn around.

You've just been denied your rights based on an officer's judgement.

Example #2: You have a right to the sanctity of your home. A neighbor hears your child screaming bloody murder (over the recent death of her pet goldfish), but the neighbor doesn't know that. He calls the police and an officer knocks on your door. You refuse to let him enter, but he can hear a hysterical child screaming "He's dead!!! He's dead!!!" over and over again while banging on a wall. In the officer's judgement, he feels that there might be a child in danger in the house and he enters your home to check on the kid over our protests.

You've just been denied your rights based on an officer's judgement.

The Boston case represents a difficult line for police. Your rights are important, but there is a desperate, armed killer loose in the neighborhood who has proven that he is willing and able to murder cops, adults and children alike, and he could very well be hiding in your home or any others in the immediate area. Lives are at stake and their is an imminent threat to everyone in the neighborhood. Should he deny you your rights based on his judgement? Is it justified?

The answer isn't a cut-and-dried, simplistic "yes" or "no".
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:13   #66
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"Of liberty I would say that, in the whole plenitude of its extent, it is unobstructed action according to our will. But rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

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Old 04-20-2013, 01:38   #67
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"It's for the greater good". Somehow, that sounds like "It's for the children" to me. Know what I mean?
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:37   #68
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Once you consent to a search, I seriously doubt you can set limitations like "you may only look at items within plain sight".
Now, see, a search would inconvenience me. I would, therefore, have to politely decline.

They can, of course, conduct whatever investigation they wish on whatever items they can see in plain sight.

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Old 04-20-2013, 05:02   #69
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I guess if one wanted to avoid TSA one could elect to fly himself or charter an aircraft.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:33   #70
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That's probably how the cops missed him. The searching cops were convinced by the homeowner that the bomber could not possibly be hiding on his/her property. And the cops moved on to the next property.
Quote:
Originally Posted by racerford View Post
What I read was they had search the property previously, boat and shed as well. Later the homeowner that a door was open (to the shed) and saw blood, and then called police.

Based on what I read, you should make a different supposition.
I never said the bomber was hiding in the boat the entire time. Clearly the bomber was hiding somewhere the whole time. My supposition was that when the cops came along to search whichever house the bomber was hiding at, the homeowner convinced them his/her property was secure and they moved on.

If that was the case (and I don't know it is), let this be a cautionary tale. No matter what a civilian may say or do, shortcuts make waste. And whatever decision the individual LEO on the ground makes, he/she will ultimately be responsible for that decision. (Yeah, basically somebody's going to damn you if you do, and damn you if you don't).


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In the news conference after the arrest, the Col. of MSP said that the yard where he was located was about one block outside of the perimeter where they were searching and then added something to effect that he must have got out before they had the perimeter established the previous evening
I heard the MSP Col say this too and wondered how that reconciled with the homeowner's statement that the house had previously been "searched."

I can see because the house/yard was only 1-block outside the perimeter, some cops came by and gave it a quick look over... hence "searched." IDK.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:42   #71
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Yet that does harm to me personally. Allowing a search of my property which, I can be certain will result in the discovery of nothing, does does me no harm AND serves a greater good. Therein lies the difference.
Lack of critical thinking;

Your allowing a search of your property gives "the authorities" the impression that what they are doing is "o.k.", and does not impress upon them the idea that they, to, need to observe the law, that they are not above the law.

It's all about setting a negative precedence.

If I lived in Watertown, no LEOs would have entered my abode. Instead, I would have told them that I had checked my own home, and that it was clear.

I would also tell them that I was armed, and ready to defend my home should the BG try and get in.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:52   #72
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Now what could that something possibly be?

A reasonable conclusion would be that the fact that police were searching all of the houses denied him that opportunity for safe haven.
No....

A more reasonable conclusion is that the perp was grievously wounded, and in no condition to kick in a door and take a house down by force.

He got as far as his shattered body could take him, and crawled into what little hole he could find....in a boat.

The search meant nothing to the perp, he was unconscious and near death when found.

Your statement also assumes that the perp wasn't concerned about NOT being in a home, as if being outside in a boat was safer for him, as if the LEOs were only searching inside homes, and not in yards and associated structures like garages.

I can assure you, that wasn't the case.

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Old 04-20-2013, 05:54   #73
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Of course LEO has never been known to plant evidence - drop a packet of illegal drugs, etc - then find it and make an arrest and prosecution based on it. Nor seize assets and force the owner to prove they are legitimately his. Not kick down the wrong door...


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Old 04-20-2013, 06:00   #74
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Of course LEO has never been known to plant evidence - drop a packet of illegal drugs, etc - then find it and make an arrest and prosecution based on it. Nor seize assets and force the owner to prove they are legitimately his. Not kick down the wrong door...
You mean they planted the bomber's body in the boat so they can charge the homeowner with harboring a terrorist? Cool!
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:15   #75
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That phrase gets a bad rap around here. The thing is, it's a completely reasonable thing to say in a lot of situations. As long as it's done on a case by case basis, you're not "surrendering to the nanny state", "letting your rights be trampled", or any of the other catchphrases that float around here.

If you're talking about check points, gun registration, involuntary searches during traffic stops, or something else that requires surrendering your ability to refuse I definitely, I agree that it is a stupid thing to say.

When it is a one time concession, you truly do have nothing to hide, and allowing the search serves a greater good (whether it be the continued search for a fugitive, your convenience, or something else), there is no harm in going along.

I know there's nothing illegal in my house. If a dangerous person were on the loose in my neighborhood and the police wanted to search, I'd have no problem with it. If you would refuse simply on principle, that's your right. You're a fool to exercise it, though.

My two cents. Feel free to disagree.
The police would be wasting their time at my house. I'd just be saving them time.
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