GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-19-2013, 16:14   #141
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 41,261


Quote:
Originally Posted by cgjane View Post
im out. you cant argue with stupid.
I dunno. Dana is doing pretty well at it.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:16   #142
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 16,713
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post

But I'm still waiting to hear what they SHOULD be doing if they're acting so foolishly and emotionally now. You've repeated over and over that they're doing it wrong, but you have yet to offer an alternative. Criticism is easy. Constructive criticism seems beyond your ability.
Wait wait.

Go back and see who was accusing everyone of reacting with "feelings".

I have asked to put a number on "reasonable" yet everyone who claims to work with data cannot do.

You seem to think this is about LEO. I have aked many times to justify an ACTION being reasonable based upon probability of success. Do you understand the difference between a generic ACTION and not a specific action.
__________________
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.

Last edited by DanaT; 04-19-2013 at 16:17..
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:16   #143
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 41,261


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
1)The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and

2)No Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Just to be clear, there are 2 separate parts to the 4th. Many mistakenly run them together.

Now, do you have any evidence of violations of the 4th amendment happening here, or are you just talking?
Neither. I'm replying to cacop's post.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:16   #144
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 35,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
That is completely unacceptable


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
It is also untrue. Welcome to Glock Talk.
__________________
"Liberal" is when you hire others to use a guns to protect you, so you can pretend guns aren't necessary.
Bren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:19   #145
Lockback
Polymerlicious!
 
Lockback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,511
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiefWPD View Post
As a practical matter, you have no choice but to let the officers search. The situation is an exigent one and their actions would be deemed reasonable should it come to some sort of litigation.

To the GTers who would tell the officers they couldn't enter, well, should you ever be in that actual situation let us all know how it works out for you.
Precisely.
Look, people, I'm all for limiting police powers, etc.
But given the situation here, I would have no problem allowing cops to have a look around. You've got a very determined and very dangerous man on the run. I'm on the side of the police here.
Lockback is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:23   #146
certifiedfunds
Platinum Membership
Tewwowist
 
certifiedfunds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Caught in the Middle
Posts: 41,261


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bren View Post
It is also untrue. Welcome to Glock Talk.
Glad to hear it


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
certifiedfunds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:26   #147
HarlDane
Senior Member
 
HarlDane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: San Joaquin Valley
Posts: 7,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
None of this justifies violating the 4th.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire
The 4th doesn't require a warrant in all circumstances, if it did there would no reason to include the word unreasonable.
__________________
-HarlDane-
"Son of the San Joaquin"
The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. A. Einstein

Last edited by HarlDane; 04-19-2013 at 16:27..
HarlDane is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:28   #148
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 16,713
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
And you have also been asked to propose an alternative, which you seem to have conveniently overlooked.

So, I'm going to ask you point blank: If, by YOUR reasoning and math, this is such a fruitless endeavor, then what is the better course of action? What should they be doing instead?
I answered very early in the thread what I would do.
__________________
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:30   #149
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 16,713
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlDane View Post
The 4th doesn't require a warrant in all circumstances, if it did there would no reason to include the word unreasonable.
Goes right back to where it started.

To infringe on the 4th, what is a reasonable probability of success that would justify infringing on it?

90%
50%
20%
10%
1%
0.01%
0.0000001%

What number is reasonable and when does it become unreasonable?
__________________
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:34   #150
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 45,061
Blog Entries: 1


Dana,

What is the square root of angry?
TBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:35   #151
DirtNap
Senior Member
 
DirtNap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Schillingsville
Posts: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
I am asking how someone can justify doing something as "reasonable" with such low probability of sucess.

Would you let me invest your retirement money with a 0.00067% chance that I would do it correctly?
That 0.00067% is more of a chance than the 8 year old child had when these savages knowingly placed that IED next to him.

The police both federal and local in this case are risking there lives to stop a ACTIVE and IMMINENT threat that has been the source of TWO major Terrorist incidents on United States Soil. The fear is not perceived, it is a reality and I see no reason why any logical person would consider any law enforcement on the scene anything other than a FRIEND...............

Last edited by DirtNap; 04-19-2013 at 16:50..
DirtNap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:35   #152
G19G20
Status Quo 2014
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
If you're so much smarter, Dana, why don't you take your math to Watertown and show all those "acting out of fear" cops how to do it right?

Rather than bashing them for doing their job, and then telling them their doing it poorly, go show them how to do it right. I'm sure the guy with the bombs is willing to listen to your equations....
Violating people's rights is not a police "job". Well, not officially at least. If someone wants to comply that's on them but I won't be one of them.

Those cops would get the same treatment as any other time a cop comes to my door uninvited. He's not there to be my friend, do me a favor, or make me dinner and nothing positive can come from the encounter. Get a warrant if you want to enter bub. Actually, I'd not even answer the door.

Last edited by G19G20; 04-19-2013 at 16:37..
G19G20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:37   #153
Ruble Noon
"Cracker"
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 11,018
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarpleyg View Post
Assume you are a Watertown, MA resident and the cops come a-knocking looking for Mr. Jihad. Do you answer and if you do, would you let them in for alook around or would you assume your word is good enough? What if they insist and force their way in? Does a manhunt like this suspend your Constitutional 4th Amendment rights?

Discuss.
You should offer them coffee and donuts and thank them for keeping you safe from the terrorists.
Ruble Noon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:37   #154
AirCav
CLM Number 284
Out Front!
 
AirCav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 3,019


It's tough to eliminate emotion from our thought process when the crisis is still ongoing. Especially if you are somehow connected, geographically or professionally, to the event.

That said, I don't think our rights were intended to be protected only when it's convenient to do so. What would be the point of that? I also don't believe that the intent of the Constitution/Bill of Rights was to make the government agent's job easier. Quite the opposite, actually. I can appreciate the challenge of working within constitutional limits during times of crisis and am grateful to those officers/agents who take that responsibility seriously.

I would likely cooperate with LE's request to search. If presented as a demand, what choice would I have? Live to fight another day. It would probably get sorted out after the fact in the courts and legislatures similar to the aftermath of Katrina. The heat of the moment would be an inadvisable juncture to debate constitutional law with an entry team.
AirCav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:38   #155
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 16,713
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbo View Post
dana,

what is the square root of angry?
8.0622577482985496523666132303038

Now lets see if you can figure it out...
__________________
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.

Last edited by DanaT; 04-19-2013 at 16:39..
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:39   #156
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 45,061
Blog Entries: 1


Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
8.0622577482985496523666132303038
Incorrect, try again.
TBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:41   #157
HarlDane
Senior Member
 
HarlDane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: San Joaquin Valley
Posts: 7,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Goes right back to where it started.

To infringe on the 4th, what is a reasonable probability of success that would justify infringing on it?

90%
50%
20%
10%
1%
0.01%
0.0000001%

What number is reasonable and when does it become unreasonable?
The court system doesn’t judge reasonableness based on probability of success.

I think you would have a pretty hard time convincing a judge that this did not constitute an exigent circumstance where obtaining a warrant for each and every property wouldn't take so much time as to creat a public safety issue.
__________________
-HarlDane-
"Son of the San Joaquin"
The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly. A. Einstein
HarlDane is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:41   #158
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 16,713
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
You should offer them coffee and donuts
Well, if they kick me out of the house, how do you expect me me to make them an Espresso? I dont make a very good latte nor espresso when a gun is pointed at me.

And the donuts. Sorry, when I have donuts in the house, I eat them. I dont save donuts for unexpected vistors.
__________________
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:42   #159
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 16,713
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Incorrect, try again.
Absolutely correct. I am sorry your math skills dont allow you to get that number.
__________________
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2013, 16:43   #160
DanaT
Pharaoh
 
DanaT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: CO & Baden –Württemberg
Posts: 16,713
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlDane View Post
The court system doesn’t judge reasonableness based on probability of success.
So then it is all feeling?
__________________
Many of the truths that we cling to depend on our point of view.
DanaT is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply


Tags
arrogance of ignorance, brownshirts, jbterrific, no court needed, statists, the usual suspects
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 21:31.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,314
348 Members
966 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42