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Old 04-19-2013, 16:35   #151
DirtNap
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
I am asking how someone can justify doing something as "reasonable" with such low probability of sucess.

Would you let me invest your retirement money with a 0.00067% chance that I would do it correctly?
That 0.00067% is more of a chance than the 8 year old child had when these savages knowingly placed that IED next to him.

The police both federal and local in this case are risking there lives to stop a ACTIVE and IMMINENT threat that has been the source of TWO major Terrorist incidents on United States Soil. The fear is not perceived, it is a reality and I see no reason why any logical person would consider any law enforcement on the scene anything other than a FRIEND...............

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Old 04-19-2013, 16:35   #152
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
If you're so much smarter, Dana, why don't you take your math to Watertown and show all those "acting out of fear" cops how to do it right?

Rather than bashing them for doing their job, and then telling them their doing it poorly, go show them how to do it right. I'm sure the guy with the bombs is willing to listen to your equations....
Violating people's rights is not a police "job". Well, not officially at least. If someone wants to comply that's on them but I won't be one of them.

Those cops would get the same treatment as any other time a cop comes to my door uninvited. He's not there to be my friend, do me a favor, or make me dinner and nothing positive can come from the encounter. Get a warrant if you want to enter bub. Actually, I'd not even answer the door.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:37   #153
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Assume you are a Watertown, MA resident and the cops come a-knocking looking for Mr. Jihad. Do you answer and if you do, would you let them in for alook around or would you assume your word is good enough? What if they insist and force their way in? Does a manhunt like this suspend your Constitutional 4th Amendment rights?

Discuss.
You should offer them coffee and donuts and thank them for keeping you safe from the terrorists.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:37   #154
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It's tough to eliminate emotion from our thought process when the crisis is still ongoing. Especially if you are somehow connected, geographically or professionally, to the event.

That said, I don't think our rights were intended to be protected only when it's convenient to do so. What would be the point of that? I also don't believe that the intent of the Constitution/Bill of Rights was to make the government agent's job easier. Quite the opposite, actually. I can appreciate the challenge of working within constitutional limits during times of crisis and am grateful to those officers/agents who take that responsibility seriously.

I would likely cooperate with LE's request to search. If presented as a demand, what choice would I have? Live to fight another day. It would probably get sorted out after the fact in the courts and legislatures similar to the aftermath of Katrina. The heat of the moment would be an inadvisable juncture to debate constitutional law with an entry team.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:38   #155
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Originally Posted by tbo View Post
dana,

what is the square root of angry?
8.0622577482985496523666132303038

Now lets see if you can figure it out...
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:39   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
8.0622577482985496523666132303038
Incorrect, try again.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:41   #157
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Goes right back to where it started.

To infringe on the 4th, what is a reasonable probability of success that would justify infringing on it?

90%
50%
20%
10%
1%
0.01%
0.0000001%

What number is reasonable and when does it become unreasonable?
The court system doesn’t judge reasonableness based on probability of success.

I think you would have a pretty hard time convincing a judge that this did not constitute an exigent circumstance where obtaining a warrant for each and every property wouldn't take so much time as to creat a public safety issue.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:41   #158
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You should offer them coffee and donuts
Well, if they kick me out of the house, how do you expect me me to make them an Espresso? I dont make a very good latte nor espresso when a gun is pointed at me.

And the donuts. Sorry, when I have donuts in the house, I eat them. I dont save donuts for unexpected vistors.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:42   #159
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Incorrect, try again.
Absolutely correct. I am sorry your math skills dont allow you to get that number.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:43   #160
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He knows that. This is just his disingenuous tact to poke LE.
Seen it many times before, and even if he had no knowledge/clue about what is required, it's been explained to him numerous times (with links to source).

He's not interested in reasoned discourse. Exercise of bias is all important.

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Old 04-19-2013, 16:43   #161
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Originally Posted by HarlDane View Post
The court system doesn’t judge reasonableness based on probability of success.
So then it is all feeling?
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:45   #162
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[COLOR="Navy"]He knows that. This is just his disingenuous tact to poke LE.
Someone has selective reading syndrome.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:45   #163
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Absolutely correct. I am sorry your math skills dont allow you to get that number.
You can't bluff your way through math.
Try again.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:45   #164
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The court system doesn’t judge reasonableness based on probability of success.

I think you would have a pretty hard time convincing a judge that this did not constitute an exigent circumstance where obtaining a warrant for each and every property wouldn't take so much time as to creat a public safety issue.
That would only apply if it can be articulated that the property in question was the one housing the wanted person and spending the time to obtain a warrant would allow for escape or danger to occupants, etc. Exigent circumstances does not allow dragnet searches of properties otherwise protected by the 4th Amendment. I disagree that a judge would consider blanket searches of city blocks as "exigent circumstances". Short of a formal declaration of martial law...
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:48   #165
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Well, if they kick me out of the house, how do you expect me me to make them an Espresso? I dont make a very good latte nor espresso when a gun is pointed at me.

And the donuts. Sorry, when I have donuts in the house, I eat them. I dont save donuts for unexpected vistors.
In that case, I would suggest keeping a tape recorder and a tube of KY handy.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:49   #166
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double post
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:52   #167
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Originally Posted by HarlDane View Post
The court system doesn’t judge reasonableness based on probability of success.

I think you would have a pretty hard time convincing a judge that this did not constitute an exigent circumstance where obtaining a warrant for each and every property wouldn't take so much time as to creat a public safety issue.
Couldn't be that its that way BY DESIGN or anything, huh?
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:54   #168
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As a practical matter, you have no choice but to let the officers search. The situation is an exigent one and their actions would be deemed reasonable should it come to some sort of litigation.

To the GTers who would tell the officers they couldn't enter, well, should you ever be in that actual situation let us all know how it works out for you.
I disagree. To amount to an exigent circumstance that allows a warrantless entry, they'd have to see the guy enter the house (hot pursuit) or someone inside would have to be in imminent danger (or evidence in danger of imminent destruction). Just really, really wanting to catch somebody is not on of the exigent search circumstances that allows a warrantless search, no matter how much you want to catch the person.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:54   #169
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I figure if there is a search of this magnitude. They are on a man-hunt for a freak like this guy... if you aren't cooperating, you are just an A-hole.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:55   #170
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So then it is all feeling?
It's the totality of the circumstances.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:58   #171
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Does anyone have any evidence to suggest any of these searches have been done without consent?
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Old 04-19-2013, 17:00   #172
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Originally Posted by Ricky Ricardo View Post
This is what needs to be considered. Though I ordinarily would not appreciate SWAT type individuals coming into my house without a warrant, considering the totality of circumstances, I would cooperate.


It’s not me they’re looking for. They’re looking for homicidal maniacs that have ruined hundreds of lives in the last few days, and have paralyzed a major city with their violence.
I see and understand what you are saying -

But I also think that during "emergency" situations - having the government follow the rules / protections is even MORE important.

Sorry we had to shoot up those families - they didn't want us to come into their homes - but we are the government and there was a guy on the lose that was real dangerous - they said no reason to search - but we didn't believe them.

If a person wants to allow them to search - I don't care - but that should be a choice -
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Old 04-19-2013, 17:02   #173
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Does anyone have any evidence to suggest any of these searches have been done without consent?
None that I've seen. But if they didn't overreaact based on a complete absence of information, this wouldn't be the GNG Lounge. Aside from the reliability of the media, most people here read no farther than a headline or thread title and make upo the rest of the story for themselves.
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Old 04-19-2013, 17:04   #174
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I disagree. To amount to an exigent circumstance that allows a warrantless entry, they'd have to see the guy enter the house (hot pursuit) or someone inside would have to be in imminent danger (or evidence in danger of imminent destruction). Just really, really wanting to catch somebody is not on of the exigent search circumstances that allows a warrantless search, no matter how much you want to catch the person.
This guy didn't rob the liquor store...he committed an act of terrorism, numerous other crimes, and was reportedly wearing a suicide vest. He is still a HUGE threat to the public at large and was (and I bet still is) contained in a small section of town. You don't put on a suicide vest because you intend on laying low.
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Old 04-19-2013, 17:05   #175
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The 4th doesn't require a warrant in all circumstances, if it did there would no reason to include the word unreasonable.
I realize that


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