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Old 04-19-2013, 15:46   #126
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Originally Posted by tarpleyg View Post
Assume you are a Watertown, MA resident and the cops come a-knocking looking for Mr. Jihad. Do you answer and if you do, would you let them in for alook around or would you assume your word is good enough? What if they insist and force their way in? Does a manhunt like this suspend your Constitutional 4th Amendment rights?

Discuss.
Yes, yes I would let them in id offer them some coffee or something to drink or eat also. Id also be CCing all the time. Then as they left id thank them, tell them to be safe ,and say a prayer for them to be safe and catch the dude.
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Old 04-19-2013, 15:47   #127
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The city of Boston is on lock down.

What economic impact do you think this lockdown has?
Not as much as a bunch of dead and wounded citizens.
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Old 04-19-2013, 15:49   #128
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im out. you cant argue with stupid.
You are right, it's like mud wrestling with a pig- you just get dirty but the pig enjoys it.
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Old 04-19-2013, 15:51   #129
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
You seem to be reading incorrectly. I have asked people who have claimed this is reasonable, to put a number on reasonable. How much of a chance of success does it take when performing an action for said action to be "reasonable"?
And you have also been asked to propose an alternative, which you seem to have conveniently overlooked.

So, I'm going to ask you point blank: If, by YOUR reasoning and math, this is such a fruitless endeavor, then what is the better course of action? What should they be doing instead?


I'll also point out the following: You broke down the numbers for success in finding the suspect in EACH HOUSE. But they're not expecting to find him in each house. That's idiotic, the chances of success change to a higher percentage with every house they clear. If they start with 2,000 houses, then they have a 1/2000 chance of finding him in the FIRST house. But when they've searched 1,995 houses, then they have a 1 in 5 chance of finding him in number 1,996 (working on the assumption of a tight perimeter).

But I'm still waiting to hear what they SHOULD be doing if they're acting so foolishly and emotionally now. You've repeated over and over that they're doing it wrong, but you have yet to offer an alternative. Criticism is easy. Constructive criticism seems beyond your ability.
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Old 04-19-2013, 15:54   #130
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Originally Posted by Glock20 10mm View Post
Normally I am in the "Get a warrant!" crowd... but these are extenuating circumstances that require citizens to work with law enforcement. The picture here is much bigger than my arrogant ass.
This is what the 4th Amendment was made for.




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Old 04-19-2013, 15:58   #131
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Originally Posted by ohio mossy oak View Post
It is my understanding that these are not simple knock on the door and let us in and have a looky looky searches..These are getting called out of your home via bull horn(or such).Once out of the dwelling you are ushered down the street by 50 or 60 police/swat, and the dwelling is cleared by LEO's in a thorough manner..This is a accurate depiction from the brother of a watertown resident ...

I would have to be put in the situation before I would know what I would do..
That is completely unacceptable


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Old 04-19-2013, 16:00   #132
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What is reasonable for one situation, may not be for another.
"Totality of circumstances".....

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This is what needs to be considered. Though I ordinarily would not appreciate SWAT type individuals coming into my house without a warrant, considering the totality of circumstances, I would cooperate.


It’s not me they’re looking for. They’re looking for homicidal maniacs that have ruined hundreds of lives in the last few days, and have paralyzed a major city with their violence.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:01   #133
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This is what needs to be considered. Though I ordinarily would not appreciate SWAT type individuals coming into my house without a warrant, considering the totality of circumstances, I would cooperate.


It’s not me they’re looking for. They’re looking for homicidal maniacs that have ruined hundreds of lives in the last few days, and have paralyzed a major city with their violence.
Right! Give the man a cigar!
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:03   #134
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5:02 PM, fresh from TV.

The Police are NOT searching door to door on every house.
They are using information to search houses, but not EVERY house.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:03   #135
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News conference to start momentarily.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:07   #136
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News conference to start momentarily.
I know this is a completely irrelevant comment that carries no weight in the conversation, but....

I REALLY hate the look of the uniform-cap the MSP Superintendent is wearing. It looks like someone took an Army dress-uniform cover and deflated it.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:08   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
I alluded to this in my first post.

What is a possible outcome of not doing a house to house search?

Could someone be held hostage and the police could have discovered this during a house search?

Could said hostages be murdered if the search was not conducted?

Could police be sued for failing to search when they had the resources to do so?


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None of this justifies violating the 4th.


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Old 04-19-2013, 16:10   #138
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None of this justifies violating the 4th.


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1)The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and

2)No Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Just to be clear, there are 2 separate parts to the 4th. Many mistakenly run them together.

Now, do you have any evidence of violations of the 4th amendment happening here, or are you just talking?
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:11   #139
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
News conference to start momentarily.
He just said they did every house, whatever. Now they lift the "stay at home ban"?

My question is where is the car that the kid got away in? I may have missed this but that seems key....to me.

Full disclosure...did not read entire thread......
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:12   #140
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
I'll also point out the following: You broke down the numbers for success in finding the suspect in EACH HOUSE. But they're not expecting to find him in each house. That's idiotic, the chances of success change to a higher percentage with every house they clear. If they start with 2,000 houses, then they have a 1/2000 chance of finding him in the FIRST house. But when they've searched 1,995 houses, then they have a 1 in 5 chance of finding him in number 1,996 (working on the assumption of a tight perimeter).
I already addressed this. But it seems that some say that Bayes Thereom doesn’t apply. So take it up with the earlier posters who said that this math doesn’t apply.


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And if I have set up such a strawman and lets say they had a 5% chance of catching him, Bayes successful run theorem says that by now they they should have had nearly a 99% success in finding him.

Use a P of 0.05 and n of 70 and see what the probability of success is.
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DanaT:

"Bayes successful run theorem" is of no interest to the law officers looking for a person who, I suggest, could be described as a homicidal maniac.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:14   #141
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im out. you cant argue with stupid.
I dunno. Dana is doing pretty well at it.


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Old 04-19-2013, 16:16   #142
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post

But I'm still waiting to hear what they SHOULD be doing if they're acting so foolishly and emotionally now. You've repeated over and over that they're doing it wrong, but you have yet to offer an alternative. Criticism is easy. Constructive criticism seems beyond your ability.
Wait wait.

Go back and see who was accusing everyone of reacting with "feelings".

I have asked to put a number on "reasonable" yet everyone who claims to work with data cannot do.

You seem to think this is about LEO. I have aked many times to justify an ACTION being reasonable based upon probability of success. Do you understand the difference between a generic ACTION and not a specific action.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:16   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
1)The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and

2)No Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Just to be clear, there are 2 separate parts to the 4th. Many mistakenly run them together.

Now, do you have any evidence of violations of the 4th amendment happening here, or are you just talking?
Neither. I'm replying to cacop's post.


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Old 04-19-2013, 16:16   #144
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That is completely unacceptable


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It is also untrue. Welcome to Glock Talk.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:19   #145
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As a practical matter, you have no choice but to let the officers search. The situation is an exigent one and their actions would be deemed reasonable should it come to some sort of litigation.

To the GTers who would tell the officers they couldn't enter, well, should you ever be in that actual situation let us all know how it works out for you.
Precisely.
Look, people, I'm all for limiting police powers, etc.
But given the situation here, I would have no problem allowing cops to have a look around. You've got a very determined and very dangerous man on the run. I'm on the side of the police here.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:23   #146
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It is also untrue. Welcome to Glock Talk.
Glad to hear it


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Old 04-19-2013, 16:26   #147
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None of this justifies violating the 4th.


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The 4th doesn't require a warrant in all circumstances, if it did there would no reason to include the word unreasonable.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:28   #148
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
And you have also been asked to propose an alternative, which you seem to have conveniently overlooked.

So, I'm going to ask you point blank: If, by YOUR reasoning and math, this is such a fruitless endeavor, then what is the better course of action? What should they be doing instead?
I answered very early in the thread what I would do.
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:30   #149
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The 4th doesn't require a warrant in all circumstances, if it did there would no reason to include the word unreasonable.
Goes right back to where it started.

To infringe on the 4th, what is a reasonable probability of success that would justify infringing on it?

90%
50%
20%
10%
1%
0.01%
0.0000001%

What number is reasonable and when does it become unreasonable?
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Old 04-19-2013, 16:34   #150
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Dana,

What is the square root of angry?
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