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Old 04-29-2013, 18:29   #581
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
You do like to deliberately avoid the reality, don't you?

I'll try one more time, you'll deny the truth, but I can say I tried.

The suspect was believed to have a phone which he could get news info on. He had shown he was willing to take part in kidnapping and in murder. Yet he did not kidnap or take hostages or hide in house, why?

Well I'll try to explain. I have heard of several, murders, burglaries and kidnappings in my State, but none of those things have ever happened at our Police Academy. As a matter of fact no criminal that I have ever heard of has tried to hide in the Academy. I am just guessing, but I think all the Cops might have something to do with that.

Just the other day, when I went to town, there was a Deputy parked on the shoulder in plain sight observing an intersection. I don't think he wrote one ticket for anybody running a stop sign there.

There is a very old theory in police manhunts, it is so hard for someone like you to understand, "the first place you should look is the last place you want to find the suspect. Then you keep him from getting there."

If you are worried he might take hostages etc, make it obvious to him that is a bad idea and force him to hide where he can't.

He had no hostages and was unable to kill anyone else in that boat.

That was a win, despite what your expert opinion leads you to believe.
Mind readers too! Those police were even better than we thought. Each raid was actually psychological warfare in case the terrorist was streaming Fox News over his cell phone.






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Old 04-29-2013, 18:34   #582
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Mind readers too! Those police were even better than we thought. Each raid was actually psychological warfare in case the terrorist was streaming Fox News over his cell phone.






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Why don't you share with us your experiences in searching for wanted and dangerous suspects?

How about any cases that you have argued in court on the subject?

Maybe you have been a wanted fugitive?

How about one hiding in your neighborhood. Did they search your yard?

Maybe you wrote a college thesis about it?

Did you take any classes in LE or AJ in college that might be relevant?

Give us experience.

Or sit there on your toadstool croaking "I don't like it"
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Old 04-29-2013, 18:53   #583
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Why don't you share with us your experiences in searching for wanted and dangerous suspects?

How about any cases that you have argued in court on the subject?

Maybe you have been a wanted fugitive?

How about one hiding in your neighborhood. Did they search your yard?

Maybe you wrote a college thesis about it?

Did you take any classes in LE or AJ in college that might be relevant?

Give us experience.

Or sit there on your toadstool croaking "I don't like it"
The really nice part about being an American citizen is the freedom to speak my mind, to criticize the state. Some call it freedom. Some call it responsibility. I realize you call it unacceptable as statists typically do.

Based on the posts of many LEOs on this thread regarding exigent circumstances and justifications for some of the searches and general disposition toward law abiding citizens, I remain convinced that experience in searches isn't a prerequisite for being correct here. Far from it.


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Old 04-29-2013, 19:38   #584
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You do like to deliberately avoid the reality, don't you?

I'll try one more time, you'll deny the truth, but I can say I tried.

The suspect was believed to have a phone which he could get news info on. He had shown he was willing to take part in kidnapping and in murder. Yet he did not kidnap or take hostages or hide in house, why?

Well I'll try to explain. I have heard of several, murders, burglaries and kidnappings in my State, but none of those things have ever happened at our Police Academy. As a matter of fact no criminal that I have ever heard of has tried to hide in the Academy. I am just guessing, but I think all the Cops might have something to do with that.

Just the other day, when I went to town, there was a Deputy parked on the shoulder in plain sight observing an intersection. I don't think he wrote one ticket for anybody running a stop sign there.

There is a very old theory in police manhunts, it is so hard for someone like you to understand, "the first place you should look is the last place you want to find the suspect. Then you keep him from getting there."

If you are worried he might take hostages etc, make it obvious to him that is a bad idea and force him to hide where he can't.

He had no hostages and was unable to kill anyone else in that boat.

That was a win, despite what your expert opinion leads you to believe.
Phone? I believe they were worried about him having a police radio.

So, you are saying that the police wanted to keep him from taking hostages in the area that they had cordoned off but they weren't trying to keep him from taking hostages outside the area in which he was hiding?
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Old 04-29-2013, 19:40   #585
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The really nice part about being an American citizen is the freedom to speak my mind, to criticize the state. Some call it freedom. Some call it responsibility. I realize you call it unacceptable as statists typically do.
Nice strawman you have constructed.

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Based on the posts of many LEOs on this thread regarding exigent circumstances and justifications for some of the searches and general disposition toward law abiding citizens, I remain convinced that experience in searches isn't a prerequisite for being correct here. Far from it.
That's just another way of yelling, "I win"!!!

Sure you have the right to put out your opinion. Just as I, and others, have the right to point out where you don't know what you're talking about.

Your issue is you have approached the topic/subject with your mind made up.
It's apparent from your posts, and even more so from your replies (where many of the responses aren't in reference to the actual topic/subject, but to "score points").

It doesn't make you a bad person, and certainly not a bad American, but it makes you someone who is close minded to any discussion/exchange of ideas/growth when dealing with authority or authority figures.
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Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-29-2013, 20:15   #586
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Phone? I believe they were worried about him having a police radio.

So, you are saying that the police wanted to keep him from taking hostages in the area that they had cordoned off but they weren't trying to keep him from taking hostages outside the area in which he was hiding?
I am going to let you in on a few little secrets about people.

First off, there is a thing that humans have called the "fight or flight response" . In the shootout the suspect did not "fight to the bitter end" but instead fled the scene. That showed that he was in 'flight mode". When that happens you want to keep suspect like that in it . You want him to avoid contact with other people, which is a natural response in the flight mode that you want to make use of. keep him feeling out of control and do not let him get the psychological "boost" from taking control of another human. You want him to fear contact with the people you are trying to protect.

Secondly, from the highest person in the chain of command down to the greenest rookie, the entire system is filled with human beings. These are people who want to protect the rest of us. Contrary to what you think, they are not sitting around waiting for a terrorist to randomly kill people, perhaps including them, so they can jump up and yell " Oh boy, here's our chance to go out and trample on people's rights". They are humans trying to do the best they can in circumstances very few are ever in, with huge responsibilities and minutes, sometimes seconds to make decisions that lawyers will have the luxury of all the time in the world to argue about, no matter how it comes out. Frankly, the commanders making the big decisions knowing that their people are going to make mistakes. they also know that, no matter what they do, there will be cheap seat whiners that don't like it. Guess what? They don't care what someone miles away will think come Monday morning, they want to save lives NOW and they use their best judgment and aren't concerned about the opinion of someone who couldn't hack it as a waterboy on the team.

Thirdly, there are people in this world who would blame any Cop they see for a cloud on a sunny day, these people get on the internet and go at it with "what if, what if, yadda yadda" like small children "what if monster comes over the hill?". They generally have no experience whatsoever and most likely had no dog in the particular fight. They just want to get attention by somehow, without any experience judge the actions of others, and somehow, without being anywhere near the situation, claim that they have some "standing" just so they can get attention by acting as if some great injustice was done to them. They will throw words like "rights" around but they never extend their respect for other's rights to the point they respect the rights of the people involved NOT to get bent about it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 21:50   #587
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What is the significance and what should be learned? Well gee Russ, let's see. The suspect wasn't in the area of the door to door searches, the police state surveillance cameras didn't catch the perp, dragging people out of their homes at gunpoint was purposeless and pointless and probably unconstitutional (though I'm sure that one could bribe one of those black robed dudes into saying that it was constitutional) as was locking everyone in their homes. I think the lesson is, illegal police state searches didn't work despite throwing 9000 xxl equipped men at the problem and the police should focus on hiring smokers because they seem to be more observant.
You are so obsessed with blaming law enforcement. You have no desire to understand why decisions were made. You have no interest in knowing by what authority those decisions were made.

Do you know how many "sightings" there were that night and early morning in and around the cordoned area? Do you care?

Do you know why the perimeter was set where it was? Do you care?

You have proved that any reasonable attempt at discussing the events with you is futile. Your behavior shows what happens when a person's mind is shut tight against any knowledge that might help them understand. If anything that is true and factual is presented, if it does not fit into your preconceived agenda, you have no use for it. You ignore it. You deflect it.

As has been said before, this all will be brought to the courts to determine the legality of the actions by Federal, State, City, and County law enforcement agencies. While you would prefer corporal punishment be administered tomorrow, it isn't going to happen.

It might be better if you direct your anger toward those in the positions and with the authority to make the changes you want.

I doubt you will...
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Old 04-29-2013, 22:56   #588
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.........
Secondly, from the highest person in the chain of command down to the greenest rookie, the entire system is filled with human beings. These are people who want to protect the rest of us. Contrary to what you think, they are not sitting around waiting for a terrorist to randomly kill people, perhaps including them, so they can jump up and yell " Oh boy, here's our chance to go out and trample on people's rights". ............
While I agree with the above for the most part, I think you are mistaken about some those at the top end of the command chain. Maybe not the local police command chain. However there have been those in positions of power that have opined about not letting a good crisis go to waste.

There are clearly those waiting for the next mass shooting to introduce bills to trample our rights.
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Old 04-29-2013, 23:19   #589
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While I agree with the above for the most part, I think you are mistaken about some those at the top end of the command chain. Maybe not the local police command chain. However there have been those in positions of power that have opined about not letting a good crisis go to waste.

There are clearly those waiting for the next mass shooting to introduce bills to trample our rights.
so an administration pinhead says something and everyone in any level of Government must be the same.

Does that mean everyone who distrusts Government is a another Timothy McVeigh ?
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:54   #590
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You are so obsessed with blaming law enforcement. You have no desire to understand why decisions were made. You have no interest in knowing by what authority those decisions were made.

Do you know how many "sightings" there were that night and early morning in and around the cordoned area? Do you care?

Do you know why the perimeter was set where it was? Do you care?

You have proved that any reasonable attempt at discussing the events with you is futile. Your behavior shows what happens when a person's mind is shut tight against any knowledge that might help them understand. If anything that is true and factual is presented, if it does not fit into your preconceived agenda, you have no use for it. You ignore it. You deflect it.

As has been said before, this all will be brought to the courts to determine the legality of the actions by Federal, State, City, and County law enforcement agencies. While you would prefer corporal punishment be administered tomorrow, it isn't going to happen.

It might be better if you direct your anger toward those in the positions and with the authority to make the changes you want.

I doubt you will...
You just can't handle hearing the truth Russ. The truth is that the photos of the bombers came from citizens, not the state. The truth is that the dragging people from their homes at gunpoint produced nothing. The truth is that the remaining bomber was found by a homeowner after the lock down was lifted.

Do you agree with these truths, Russ? Or, does your bias favor the state to the point that you can't acknowledge the truth?
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:01   #591
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For the benefit of those still seeking factual information...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
Phone? I believe they were worried about him having a police radio.
Where did that belief originate? Did you hear that during the hours of the search? What was/is your source?

To anyone else on here, did you read or hear anything about Suspect #2 possibly having a police radio?
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So, you are saying that the police wanted to keep him from taking hostages in the area that they had cordoned off
Yes.
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but they weren't trying to keep him from taking hostages outside the area
They believed he was within the containment area. There were various law enforcement units outside the perimeter, not part of the perimeter containment force, patrolling, talking to people who were out and about. Yes, there were some people outside. The purpose was to contain him and identify anyone trying to aid and abet him.
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in which he was hiding?
That fact, where "he was hiding," that was not known until the boat owner saw him in the boat and called 911.

Are you saying that as you did to imply that they knew he was hiding outside the perimeter during the search time?
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:23   #592
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For the benefit of those still seeking factual information...Where did that belief originate? Did you hear that during the hours of the search? What was/is your source?
Where did it originate? Probably with the PD. It was believed that he might have the radio of the fallen MIT officer.
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:34   #593
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so an administration pinhead says something and everyone in any level of Government must be the same.

Does that mean everyone who distrusts Government is a another Timothy McVeigh ?
Of course not. You've already told us they're anarchists, not tewwowists.


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Old 04-30-2013, 05:55   #594
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You just can't handle hearing the truth Russ.
Really?
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
The truth is that the photos of the bombers came from citizens, not the state.
Why is that important? It doesn't matter who captured the images. What is important is what they show.
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
The truth is that the dragging people from their homes at gunpoint produced nothing.
The search within that area did not produce the suspect, that is true. Why do you believe that was in doubt. It is a fact.
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
The truth is that the remaining bomber was found by a homeowner after the lock down was lifted.
No one has disputed that fact, least of all me.Those facts are true. Your characterizations in this thread and others may be a bit exaggerated, inaccurate.
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Do you agree with these truths, Russ?
I've never disagreed with them.
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Or, does your bias favor the state to the point that you can't acknowledge the truth?
Wow, use to be my bias in favor of law enforcement. Now you've ramped that up to "bias favor the state" level.

First, the "truth," or "truths" you want acknowledged, those are hard, cold verified facts. Where did you read that I disputed, or would not acknowledge them?

There are lots and lots of dynamics at play here. I know, I know, you could give a rat's ass about dynamics. The fact is they are out there.

Some politicians are grandstanding on all kinds of pet topics. Some are actually related to this case. All I see coming from their rantings are attempts at new laws on immigration, maybe new layers of bureaucracy within federal law enforcement to better coordinate communications about people on watch lists.

Other politicians are looking at ways to use the Marathon Bombings and subsequent events to broaden the intrusion of .gov into our lives. They are backed by agency bobble-heads, the never-waste-a-good-crisis bunch. They are the ones I'm focusing on. They will be quiet about it. They will likely use amendments to critical, must-pass bills to sneak through their agenda.

All the time that is simmering, there will be the beginnings of what might be numerous lawsuits filed for civil rights violations. Remember early on I said that would happen, that all this will be played out in court. Some will be broad based. Some will be extremely narrow and specific. No matter, they will come. Will exigent circumstances, the definition, be broadened? Don't know...

A bigger question should be about the wording used to tell everyone to remain inside, for businesses to remain closed. Was the language used a request, or was it an order? Is there another level of "Emergency" needed to cover this kind of danger to the public? That is where this needs to start. Under what "authority" did the Governor, the Mayors issue these "request?"

As more information is released, I'll be contacting the Governor's Office to see if such a plan exists for Virginia, and to what degree it goes against the 4th Amendment.

So, see, you don't have even close to enough information to be labeling me.

What's your game plan?
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:00   #595
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Nice strawman you have constructed.


That's just another way of yelling, "I win"!!!

Sure you have the right to put out your opinion. Just as I, and others, have the right to point out where you don't know what you're talking about.

Your issue is you have approached the topic/subject with your mind made up.
It's apparent from your posts, and even more so from your replies (where many of the responses aren't in reference to the actual topic/subject, but to "score points").

It doesn't make you a bad person, and certainly not a bad American, but it makes you someone who is close minded to any discussion/exchange of ideas/growth when dealing with authority or authority figures.
I believe that's the most I've seen you post on these threads.

Closed minded is precisely what I see coming from the LEO in these discussions.




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Old 04-30-2013, 06:00   #596
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Where did it originate? Probably with the PD. It was believed that he might have the radio of the fallen MIT officer.
Really? Some media reported they had his service pistol, too. How'd that turn out?

You do say, "Probably with the PD." That means you have no idea, right? Do you have a link about that belief by the PD?
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:03   #597
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Really? Why is that important? It doesn't matter who captured the images. What is important is what they show. The search within that area did not produce the suspect, that is true. Why do you believe that was in doubt. It is a fact.No one has disputed that fact, least of all me.Those facts are true. Your characterizations in this thread and others may be a bit exaggerated, inaccurate.I've never disagreed with them.Wow, use to be my bias in favor of law enforcement. Now you've ramped that up to "bias favor the state" level.

First, the "truth," or "truths" you want acknowledged, those are hard, cold verified facts. Where did you read that I disputed, or would not acknowledge them?

There are lots and lots of dynamics at play here. I know, I know, you could give a rat's ass about dynamics. The fact is they are out there.

Some politicians are grandstanding on all kinds of pet topics. Some are actually related to this case. All I see coming from their rantings are attempts at new laws on immigration, maybe new layers of bureaucracy within federal law enforcement to better coordinate communications about people on watch lists.

Other politicians are looking at ways to use the Marathon Bombings and subsequent events to broaden the intrusion of .gov into our lives. They are backed by agency bobble-heads, the never-waste-a-good-crisis bunch. They are the ones I'm focusing on. They will be quiet about it. They will likely use amendments to critical, must-pass bills to sneak through their agenda.

All the time that is simmering, there will be the beginnings of what might be numerous lawsuits filed for civil rights violations. Remember early on I said that would happen, that all this will be played out in court. Some will be broad based. Some will be extremely narrow and specific. No matter, they will come. Will exigent circumstances, the definition, be broadened? Don't know...

A bigger question should be about the wording used to tell everyone to remain inside, for businesses to remain closed. Was the language used a request, or was it an order? Is there another level of "Emergency" needed to cover this kind of danger to the public? That is where this needs to start. Under what "authority" did the Governor, the Mayors issue these "request?"

As more information is released, I'll be contacting the Governor's Office to see if such a plan exists for Virginia, and to what degree it goes against the 4th Amendment.

So, see, you don't have even close to enough information to be labeling me.

What's your game plan?
Why would exigent circumstances need to be broadened? LEO after LEO here has told me these circumstances qualified. Are you saying the police acted outside of established law?


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Old 04-30-2013, 06:13   #598
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Why would exigent circumstances need to be broadened? LEO after LEO here has told me these circumstances qualified. Are you saying the police acted outside of established law?
I already said, "I don't know" if the definition needs broadening.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:27   #599
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I already said, "I don't know" if the definition needs broadening.
True. But why raise the question?

Throughout this thread we've had LE telling me that these searches qualified. They mocked and maligned me for arguing differently.

Seems to me LE, at least on this thread, are convinced exigent circumstances existed. Why should case law be broadened? In fact, why even use the word "broadened"?


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Old 04-30-2013, 06:37   #600
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All the time that is simmering, there will be the beginnings of what might be numerous lawsuits filed for civil rights violations. Remember early on I said that would happen, that all this will be played out in court. Some will be broad based. Some will be extremely narrow and specific. No matter, they will come. Will exigent circumstances, the definition, be broadened? Don't know...
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Why would exigent circumstances need to be broadened? LEO after LEO here has told me these circumstances qualified. Are you saying the police acted outside of established law?
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I already said, "I don't know" if the definition needs broadening.
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True. But why raise the question?
Context, sir, it's all about context.

Much discussion about exigent circumstances here and in other threads. You even took it into another forum.

Those familiar with the process have said that issue, exigent circumstances will be decided by the courts.

The rest of my paragraph you failed to quote established the link between court cases and exigent circumstances - context.
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Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31