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Old 04-27-2013, 06:17   #561
RussP
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
I thought the finder of the blood said that the police had previously searched the yard (inside the official perimeter or not). So I don't think this "fact" is settled. Of course we all know that media accuracy has been spotty on this event.
Do you recall where and when you read/heard that? I was following that real time and don't recall it.

There was a report of blood on the ground in another location, much, much earlier. That was on scanner traffic. They sent a Forensics Unit but nothing else was report on the air.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:14   #562
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Well, yes I would NOT do what was done. I would have mobilized every patrol officer in the region with a BOLO order, but specifically concentrated in the general area that the bomber was last reported in. I would have no problems with patrol saturation and cops (uniformed or plain clothes but not SWAT) on foot walking the neighborhoods (eta: but to NOT approach houses without specific cause). I would have used the local Emergency Alert to notify tv and radio listeners that one of the alleged bombers may still be in the area and to remain vigilant and report any suspicious activity. You know, suspicious stuff like blood on boats that otherwise would be missed by a lockdown. Advise residents to turn on outside lights after dark, keep your arms nearby and doors locked if you are staying inside. I would make it clear via press conference that the city is not on lockdown and residents are free to travel as their constitutional right to free travel demands.

Guess which plan would have caught the bomber first? Yours or mine? MINE.
Hindsight is great. Nice boast too. I find it silly. Did you have a map of where all the easter eggs were on easter morning too?


Whether or not your plan would have succeeded is debatable. The kid might have been hiding and not mobile because of the police presence. Maybe they will ask him someday.

Personally, My plan would land in the middle of what you suppose, and what happened. I would not automatically searched every house, but I would knock on every door. Rushing into every one will tire you out pretty quick.

Why not have swat on standby? You do understand the concept of a quick reaction force, don't you?

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Old 04-27-2013, 08:24   #563
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Why not have swat on standby? You do understand the concept of a quick reaction force, don't you?
Doc, that was mentioned in radio traffic briefly in the hours before dawn when they began the searches. Uniformed patrol units asked about positioning.

The tactical units, SWAT if you will, were used because of their skill sets, their personal armor, the armored vehicles for protection against more explosive devices, and their weapons.

There were uniformed patrol units behind them as they went through the streets. One unit in each zone had non-lethal long guns. EOD and EMS were behind the uniforms.

Other uniforms were spaced around the perimeter at 30-40 meter intervals. They were stationary.

I know other GT members were listening to radio traffic. Correct me if I am wrong, if I misunderstood what was being said.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:08   #564
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Doc, that was mentioned in radio traffic briefly in the hours before dawn when they began the searches. Uniformed patrol units asked about positioning.

The tactical units, SWAT if you will, were used because of their skill sets, their personal armor, the armored vehicles for protection against more explosive devices, and their weapons.

There were uniformed patrol units behind them as they went through the streets. One unit in each zone had non-lethal long guns. EOD and EMS were behind the uniforms.

Other uniforms were spaced around the perimeter at 30-40 meter intervals. They were stationary.

I know other GT members were listening to radio traffic. Correct me if I am wrong, if I misunderstood what was being said.
Actually, that was asked of the other fellow. I would want swat close by. They have better toys.

I've taken part in numerous cordon and search ops. They were all a little bit different depending on what we were looking for, and a few dozen other factors.

There are plenty of people that think it was done all wrong, some think it was done all right, and I think it was done in the normal human fashion, well intentioned but less than perfect. Emotions and adrenalin were very high at the time the search took place. Now, when things are calm, is the time to rationally look back and see what can be done better.

I'm sure that the AAR's are probably still going on. I think that it would be cool to involve input from the citizens that were effected, both those wounded in the bombing, and the neighbors in the areas searched.

I think most of us here wanted the guy caught, not all, but most of us. I think of those of us that wanted the guy caught, the ultimate goal was achieved. Now is the time to realize this is pretty normal in other parts of the world.

How do we get the bad guy while having the smallest impact on the good guys as possible. It's a dangerous game, and it will probably never be perfect, but it can be better.
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Old 04-27-2013, 16:36   #565
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You say "disdain for authority" like that's a bad thing. You do realize that we're the source of authority, don't you? Its our authority. We just loan it to you. You are ultimately accountable to us. How is it bad to question it or hold abuses of it in disdain?
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Old 04-27-2013, 17:51   #566
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OK,
dig in and get a cup of coffee. I'll share with the gang one more, and last, time. I will hit some highlights that show my insight into such events.

Yes I was an officer in a Department in a "bedroom community" near a large city. It was a great job but I also had a talent for another more lucrative field. My ex-wife insisted I follow that course. It was construction/remodeling/restorations. I found it was easy to have a lot of patience with a 2X4 since I had lower expectations for it than I did for my fellow man, who often displayed less sense than a 2X4.

To hit a few points relevant to the topic of the thread.

Manhunts/searches. A few as most have on foot in the field and at least one from the position of being "in the office coordinating". If you've been there no explanation needed, if you haven't, none possible.

Mistakes are made.

Inter agency events.

Try a multi- agency "goodwill/PR/community service, allegedly coordinated direction and crowd control for an all day "walk-a-thon" with 6 different agencies, only two of which were familiar with the area. Imagine Officers directing traffic not knowing they are sending folks down dead-end streets or streets with only a one-way side street-going the wrong way, making them loop around and try again. It takes about eight-minutes to turn a normal street into a major clustermuckle. NOW ADD TO THIS, with a 2 week lead it is announced that the VPOTUS is showing up to grab some spotlight. So you have the USSS showing up to add to the merriment. It may seem like "it's just one day" but there is no such term about 4 hrs in to the mess. You learn about interagency coordination problems fast.

Mistakes are made.

Now toss this one. (a bit similar in some ways to the topic)

Late one evening a commercial airliner sets down short of the airport almost in a field on the edge of a rapidly developing bedroom community. Dozens of injuries, fire danger, victims in a severely damaged house. Officers come in from several agencies to assist. Every person there with the best of intentions and good will.

Mistakes are made.

There is a common thread here, and sometimes it was yours truly that made a mistake. Fortunately, those who made big decisions knew that mistakes would be made. The questions always were "what were you trying to do when you made the mistake?" and "what were the choices you had?"

It always boiled down, not to "perfect" and "wrong" but, to "reasonable", "understandable", and "intention" and "judgment".

Some times be it something like directing traffic to arresting a subject, an Officer, Department, or Agency, is faced with a "lesser evil" decision. There usually isn't time to commission a lawyer to come up with the "perfect" solution in time to prevent the greater evil. Even though some people don't grasp this a Judge, consulted in such times is not always going to give the perfect answer either, they are human and are responding to something they have never seen before either.

In the instance I mentioned about the plane homes were evacuated. In the light of day it was concluded that the evacuation area was somewhat (Quite a bit actually) larger than the actual danger zone, but that the decision had been made "in good faith" with the intention of public safety. There was not one legal action against any LE Agency or Officer as a result. Perfect hindsight does not make a decision made in the moment "wrong", hindsight gives a better view from which to evaluate and improve.

And there is the relevant portions I feel like sharing.

Like it, don't like it, unless you have more experience , Machts Nicht.

Last edited by countrygun; 04-27-2013 at 18:28.. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-27-2013, 18:15   #567
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OK,
dig in and get a cup of coffee. I'll share with the gang one more, and last, time. I will hit some highlights that show my insight into such events.

Yes I was an officer in a Department in a "bedroom community" near a large city. It was a great job but I also had a talent for another more lucrative field. My ex-wife insisted I follow that course. It was construction/remodeling/restorations. I found it was easy to have a lot of patience with a 2X4 since I had lower expectations for it than I did for my fellow man, who often displayed less sense than a 2X4.

To hit a few points relevant to the topic of the thread.

Manhunts/searches. A few as most have on foot in the field and at least one from the position of being "in the office coordinating". If you've been there no explanation needed, if you haven't, none possible.

Mistakes are made.

Inter agency events.

Try a multi- agency "goodwill/PR/community service, allegedly coordinated direction and crowd control for an all day "walk-a-thon" with 6 different agencies, only two of which were familiar with the area. Imagine Officers directing traffic not knowing they are sending folks down dead-end streets or streets with only a one-way side street-going the wrong way, making them loop around and try again. It takes about eight-minutes to turn a normal street into a major clustermuckle. NOW ADD TO THIS, with a 2 week lead it is announced that the VPOTUS is showing up to grab some spotlight. So you have the USSS showing up to add to the merriment. It may seem like "it's just one day" but there is no such term about 4 hrs in to the mess. You learn about interagency coordination problems fast.

Mistakes are made.

Now toss this one. (a bit similar in some ways to the topic)

Late one evening a commercial airliner sets down short of the airport almost in a field on the edge of a rapidly developing bedroom community. Dozens of injuries, fire danger, victims in a severely damaged house. Officers come in from several agencies to assist. Every person there with the best of intentions and good will.

Mistakes are made.

There is a common thread here, and sometimes it was yours truly that made a mistake. Fortunately, those who made big decisions knew that mistakes would be made. The questions always were "what were you trying to do when you made the mistake?" and "what were the choices you had?"

It always boiled down, not to "perfect" and "wrong" but, to "reasonable", "understandable", and "intention" and "judgment".

Some times be it something like directing traffic to arresting a subject, an Officer, Department, or Agency, is faced with a "lesser evil" decision. There usually isn't time to commission a lawyer to come up with the "perfect" solution in time to prevent the greater evil. Even though some people don't grasp this a Judge, consulted in such times is not always going to give the perfect answer either, they are human and are responding to something they have never seen before either.

In the instance I mentioned about the plane homes were evacuated. In the light of day it was concluded that the evacuation area was somewhat (Quite a bit actually) larger that the actual danger zone, but that the decision had been made "in good faith" with the intention of public safety. There was not one legal action against any LE Agency or Officer as a result. Perfect hindsight does not make a decision made in the moment "wrong", hindsight gives a better view from which to evaluate and improve.

And there is the relevant portions I feel like sharing.

Like it, don't like it, unless you have more experience , Machts Nicht.
Good post, brotha.
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Old 04-27-2013, 19:23   #568
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OK,
dig in and get a cup of coffee. I'll share with the gang one more, and last, time. I will hit some highlights that show my insight into such events.

Yes I was an officer in a Department in a "bedroom community" near a large city. ...

...And there is the relevant portions I feel like sharing.

Like it, don't like it, unless you have more experience , Machts Nicht.
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Old 04-27-2013, 19:35   #569
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Civil Liberties Issues
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umm excuse me are those extragent circus pants you have on ?? or do you work for a circus ?
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Old 04-27-2013, 19:38   #570
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Civil Liberties Issues
I usually don't care 'bout trolls but damn, your anoying...congrats.
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Old 04-27-2013, 19:51   #571
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I usually don't care 'bout trolls but damn, your anoying...congrats.
not a troll , but thanks .

if you consider me a troll, i would hate to think what you consider the others in this room , bantering back and forth lol
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Old 04-27-2013, 19:58   #572
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not a troll , but thanks .

if you consider me a troll, i would hate to think what you consider the others in this room , bantering back and forth lol
"Bickering" back and forth is one thing, posting non-stop pics because Russ may not like it is another. Now I'm feeding you...
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Old 04-27-2013, 20:02   #573
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"Bickering" back and forth is one thing, posting non-stop pics because Russ may not like it is another. Now I'm feeding you...
doh !!! ok i gotcha . dont feed me lol


i just like pictures . they can tell a story without bickering. bickering is for youngins
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Old 04-27-2013, 20:06   #574
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Lolol!

Cartman!


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Old 04-27-2013, 23:01   #575
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Do you recall where and when you read/heard that? I was following that real time and don't recall it.

There was a report of blood on the ground in another location, much, much earlier. That was on scanner traffic. They sent a Forensics Unit but nothing else was report on the air.
This was not the original place I saw it, but does mention the police searching the neighborhood. The story I read said that police had search the yard, early in the day. Later after the stay indoors was lifted that the guy went out to smoke and notice blood on a shed and that his boat cover was disturbed. The news sites keep changing their stories all day, all night and continue to change the story. There have been MANY errors in reporting. I am not sure we will ever know the exact truth.

Anyway, here is one story from the 19th.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...cial-says.html
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Old 04-28-2013, 00:13   #576
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This was not the original place I saw it, but does mention the police searching the neighborhood. The story I read said that police had search the yard, early in the day. Later after the stay indoors was lifted that the guy went out to smoke and notice blood on a shed and that his boat cover was disturbed. The news sites keep changing their stories all day, all night and continue to change the story. There have been MANY errors in reporting. I am not sure we will ever know the exact truth.

Anyway, here is one story from the 19th.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...cial-says.html
I remember hearing some of those interviews live, but recall that the people were a street over or a block away.Here's another Fox News report...
Quote:
Boston Marathon suspect in no condition yet to be questioned, Boston police chief says
Quote:
The boat Tsarnaev hid under was just outside the tight perimeter where Black Hawk helicopters patrolled the sky and police went door-to-door hunting for him, police said.
We'll see as the After Action Reports are published...
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:15   #577
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Here's an interview with the boat owner, David Henneberry. There is no mention of police being there earlier. Watertown boat owner David Henneberry tells story of finding Boston Marathon suspect
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Old 04-29-2013, 17:18   #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon Civil Liberties Issues
The suspect was found After the lock down was lifted

And that had significance in real time, how?

What should be learned from that fact? Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon Civil Liberties Issues
it now appears that the suspect may have been found outside the police containment area.

Yes.

What should be learned from that?
What is the significance and what should be learned? Well gee Russ, let's see. The suspect wasn't in the area of the door to door searches, the police state surveillance cameras didn't catch the perp, dragging people out of their homes at gunpoint was purposeless and pointless and probably unconstitutional (though I'm sure that one could bribe one of those black robed dudes into saying that it was constitutional) as was locking everyone in their homes. I think the lesson is, illegal police state searches didn't work despite throwing 9000 xxl equipped men at the problem and the police should focus on hiring smokers because they seem to be more observant.
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Old 04-29-2013, 17:46   #579
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What is the significance and what should be learned? Well gee Russ, let's see. The suspect wasn't in the area of the door to door searches, the police state surveillance cameras didn't catch the perp, dragging people out of their homes at gunpoint was purposeless and pointless and probably unconstitutional (though I'm sure that one could bribe one of those black robed dudes into saying that it was constitutional) as was locking everyone in their homes. I think the lesson is, illegal police state searches didn't work despite throwing 9000 xxl equipped men at the problem and the police should focus on hiring smokers because they seem to be more observant.
You do like to deliberately avoid the reality, don't you?

I'll try one more time, you'll deny the truth, but I can say I tried.

The suspect was believed to have a phone which he could get news info on. He had shown he was willing to take part in kidnapping and in murder. Yet he did not kidnap or take hostages or hide in house, why?

Well I'll try to explain. I have heard of several, murders, burglaries and kidnappings in my State, but none of those things have ever happened at our Police Academy. As a matter of fact no criminal that I have ever heard of has tried to hide in the Academy. I am just guessing, but I think all the Cops might have something to do with that.

Just the other day, when I went to town, there was a Deputy parked on the shoulder in plain sight observing an intersection. I don't think he wrote one ticket for anybody running a stop sign there.

There is a very old theory in police manhunts, it is so hard for someone like you to understand, "the first place you should look is the last place you want to find the suspect. Then you keep him from getting there."

If you are worried he might take hostages etc, make it obvious to him that is a bad idea and force him to hide where he can't.

He had no hostages and was unable to kill anyone else in that boat.

That was a win, despite what your expert opinion leads you to believe.
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Old 04-29-2013, 18:23   #580
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What is the significance and what should be learned? Well gee Russ, let's see. The suspect wasn't in the area of the door to door searches, the police state surveillance cameras didn't catch the perp, dragging people out of their homes at gunpoint was purposeless and pointless and probably unconstitutional (though I'm sure that one could bribe one of those black robed dudes into saying that it was constitutional) as was locking everyone in their homes. I think the lesson is, illegal police state searches didn't work despite throwing 9000 xxl equipped men at the problem and the police should focus on hiring smokers because they seem to be more observant.
Hey man, the police just conduct the raids. The courts determine whether they're legal or not. If the courts uphold them and create completely new case law, blame the politicians who appointed the judges. The cops just conducted the raids.

As long as the terrorist was captured. That's the main thing.


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