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Old 04-22-2013, 20:42   #441
TBO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Seems like the government could have at least let people know what was going on - be up front about it.

Give folks a chance to put on their shoes - maybe grab a jacket - lock up the dog.


In this case TV and internet was up and running.

Could have said - if you live in the search area -

Government agents dressed in full military gear may be coming to your home


If you want us to search your home we will - if you say no we will not

or

We are coming to your door - and will order you out into the street under threat of being "shot at" - since we are not real good shots the chance of you actually being hit is about 1 in 790.

BTW - If you need anything form the store let us know we will stop and pick it up for you.

Now that is a nice job of thinnly veiled LE bashing.

I guess they could have sat down with each house and spent an extra 20-30 minutes...

...not like time was of the importance or anything.
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Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-22-2013, 21:16   #442
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Now that is a nice job of thinnly veiled LE bashing.

I guess they could have sat down with each house and spent an extra 20-30 minutes...

...not like time was of the importance or anything.
It would have saved them time if they would have announced their intentions.


People would be prepared - would have been more organized.

But I guess if you want citizens to get the full criminal experience keeping it a surprise would be required.
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Old 04-22-2013, 21:17   #443
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Now that is a nice job of thinnly veiled LE bashing.

I guess they could have sat down with each house and spent an extra 20-30 minutes...

...not like time was of the importance or anything.
I love getting job and tactical advice from folks who have no prior training or experience, disabilities or knowledge.


We work on a field where everyone can do our job better but no one wants to do it.

Ill be back later, I'm on hour 23 of a mandatory 24 hour old on a suspect and I need to get a confession out of him.


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Old 04-22-2013, 21:18   #444
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It would have saved them time if they would have announced their intentions.


People would be prepared - would have been more organized.

But I guess if you want citizens to get the full criminal experience keeping it a surprise would be required.
I don't know if you're stupid or you really believe what you're saying. Scary nonetheless.

Maybe they could have just asked pretty please if the bad guy would surrender?


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Just being a federally "prohibited person" who owns guns and signatures about them on the internet should be enough to keep him paranoid."
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Old 04-22-2013, 21:23   #445
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Originally Posted by Ohio Copper View Post
I love getting job and tactical advice from folks who have no prior training or experience, disabilities or knowledge.


We work on a field where everyone can do our job better but no one wants to do it.

Ill be back later, I'm on hour 23 of a mandatory 24 hour old on a suspect and I need to get a confession out of him.


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You must have seen a lot in your years of law enforcement. How long have you been a cop?
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Old 04-22-2013, 21:24   #446
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Originally Posted by TBO View Post
Now that is a nice job of thinnly veiled LE bashing.

I guess they could have sat down with each house and spent an extra 20-30 minutes...

...not like time was of the importance or anything.
TBO - I was so busy during this whole mess that I honestly knew very little of what was going on. I've tried to remain reasonable about the whole thing because I didn't know many facts. I just saw this video and I have to say I weep for this country.

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Old 04-22-2013, 23:48   #447
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What do you know about the totality of circumstances surrounding that video (the house, the info the Cops had, the location, etc)?
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"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

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"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-23-2013, 02:10   #448
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You must have seen a lot in your years of law enforcement. How long have you been a cop?
You've never once truthfully answered a question that I posed to you.

There are plenty of people on here who can vouch for me. Start digging.
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Just being a federally "prohibited person" who owns guns and signatures about them on the internet should be enough to keep him paranoid."
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:38   #449
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Seems like the government could have at least let people know what was going on - be up front about it.

Give folks a chance to put on their shoes - maybe grab a jacket - lock up the dog.


In this case TV and internet was up and running.

Could have said - if you live in the search area -

Government agents dressed in full military gear may be coming to your home


If you want us to search your home we will - if you say no we will not

or

We are coming to your door - and will order you out into the street under threat of being "shot at" - since we are not real good shots the chance of you actually being hit is about 1 in 790.

BTW - If you need anything form the store let us know we will stop and pick it up for you.

Good post. I agree. What the heck is the emergency broadcast system for if it isn't used to notify residents of things like this? That damn noise yells at me every sunday night when the tv is on and I least expect it.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:09   #450
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Good post. I agree. What the heck is the emergency broadcast system for if it isn't used to notify residents of things like this? That damn noise yells at me every sunday night when the tv is on and I least expect it.
It's good for letting you know when it's going to hail, not giving away responding LE plans. That's how officers get ambushed and killed.




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Just being a federally "prohibited person" who owns guns and signatures about them on the internet should be enough to keep him paranoid."
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:26   #451
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So if I am a Muslime terrorist all I have to do is get in G19G20's home. Then I can herd them into a back bedroom and slit his wife's throat in front of him and his children. When the cops come to the door he will tell them he doesn't consent to a search because he knows I have no compunction against killing infidel children. When they leave and abandon the search I will kill them all and be on my way.

That's sick but it's what you are asking for G19G20.

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Old 04-23-2013, 06:08   #452
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You've never once truthfully answered a question that I posed to you.

There are plenty of people on here who can vouch for me. Start digging.
I'm just wondering. 10, 20, 30?

How long?

You have some great insight


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Old 04-23-2013, 06:09   #453
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It's good for letting you know when it's going to hail, not giving away responding LE plans. That's how officers get ambushed and killed.




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Have you ever been ambushed? Tell is about that? Gangs?


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Old 04-23-2013, 06:46   #454
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Seems like the government could have at least let people know what was going on - be up front about it.

Give folks a chance to put on their shoes - maybe grab a jacket - lock up the dog.

In this case TV and internet was up and running.

Could have said - if you live in the search area -

Government agents dressed in full military gear may be coming to your home

If you want us to search your home we will - if you say no we will not

or

We are coming to your door - and will order you out into the street under threat of being "shot at" - since we are not real good shots the chance of you actually being hit is about 1 in 790.

BTW - If you need anything form the store let us know we will stop and pick it up for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
It would have saved them time if they would have announced their intentions.


People would be prepared - would have been more organized.


But I guess if you want citizens to get the full criminal experience keeping it a surprise would be required.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBO View Post
What do you know about the totality of circumstances surrounding that video (the house, the info the Cops had, the location, etc)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Good post. I agree. What the heck is the emergency broadcast system for if it isn't used to notify residents of things like this? That damn noise yells at me every sunday night when the tv is on and I least expect it.
Quote:
Quote:
Authorities used a news conference, robo-calls and Twitter to tell residents to shelter in place.

"Residents of Watertown asked to stay indoors," the Boston Police Department tweeted. "Do not answer door unless instructed by a police officer."
Besides that, every news network, news station, local and national, were broadcasting real time and delayed reports. And then neighbors call neighbors, retweet and/or email neighbors.

At one point, when police responded to one location, a news media truck got to the site before a majority of the police units. They had to escort them back behind a safe perimeter. The media people in the truck were monitoring police radio traffic and broadcasting "live updates".

Z71Bill, seems you missed all that information, huh?

G19G20, you didn't hurt yourself jumpin' on that band wagon, did ya?
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:12   #455
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Originally Posted by G19G20 View Post
Good post. I agree. What the heck is the emergency broadcast system for if it isn't used to notify residents of things like this? That damn noise yells at me every sunday night when the tv is on and I least expect it.
I can't see the harm in letting citizens know that the government may be knocking on your door -

It would have saved some explanations.

It seems like the reason they did not make an announcement of the plan - was because no plan existed.

No doubt that some homeowners were treated with nothing but respect - I saw it - knock knock - everything OK here? OK bla bla bla have a nice day.

Other homes more like a drug bust -

Maybe the lady with no shoes on was seen as a major threat - GET YOUR HANDS UP!

The guys that did these things need to find different jobs -

Not saying every detail can be planned - but did they even have a plan?

Maybe it was lack of qualified people - I can only assume that in this situation people that normally write traffic tickets, spend all day posting about how great they are on GT and/or push paper in the office - are out - pointing guns at folks - searching homes - wondering if some terrorist - or a guy that doesn't like his home tossed - is about to harm them - I bet some of them were scared.
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:12   #456
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Have you ever been ambushed? Tell is about that? Gangs?
We have someone on here who was ambushed, shot in the head.

I know others who have been ambushed. One right in front of the house where my wife grew up many years ago. He was shot 4 times in the head.

It is a very sensitive topic. It is not one to use as a challenge to an officer's credibility.

Read my sigline, sir. I'm sure you'll recognize the applicable passage. Heed the message...

There's an unwritten rule here on GT. We frown on law enforcement officers giving out information about themselves. It is too easy these days to triangulate on a person using very little information.

You've asked two questions that with Ohio Copper's screen name, just might let you ID him. Ohio, 100 year veteran, shot, ambushed, lived... not that tough.

Now, Ohio Copper is one to put more emotion into his posts than, say, Sam Spade. Don't let that fool you. They both have street sense as well as book knowledge. Ohio goes street on you a lot. Sam goes all book, which is scary some of the time, well, because he is right. At least no one comes up with facts to prove him wrong.

That's why Ohio is more fun for y'all. The 'Street', that's a lot of experience that develops into gut knowledge. Some of that gut knowledge is real difficult to explain and is subject to "Yeeaaahhh, riiiggghhhttt" some of the time, unless you too have been there/done that, in one way or another.

But, back to using being ambushed as a qualifier, let's not. Why not ask, "How do you avoid being ambushed?"

WAIT, wait, wait, he can't answer that in detail...it's stuff like that on the internet that gets cops killed or wounded.

Sorry...
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:24   #457
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Besides that, every news network, news station, local and national, were broadcasting real time and delayed reports. And then neighbors call neighbors, retweet and/or email neighbors.

At one point, when police responded to one location, a news media truck got to the site before a majority of the police units. They had to escort them back behind a safe perimeter. The media people in the truck were monitoring police radio traffic and broadcasting "live updates".

Z71Bill, seems you missed all that information, huh?

G19G20, you didn't hurt yourself jumpin' on that band wagon, did ya?
But they did not give the most critical information.

Were the searches voluntary - or were you expected to leave your home - have your home searched whether you wanted it searched or not?



Even at this point - days after - can you say with any level of certainty - if the searches were voluntary or mandatory?

My view is MOST people did not even consider that they would be forced from their homes at gun point - under threat of bodily harm -

If things are really so dire that people's rights to privacy - right to be left alone IN THEIR OWN HOMES have been suspended - then maybe be man enough to let them know.

You need to see that there are two sides - law enforcement had a job to do - but people also have a need to know what is going on.


What value does keeping people in the dark (voluntary / mandatory search) provide?

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Old 04-23-2013, 07:26   #458
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We have someone on here who was ambushed, shot in the head.

I know others who have been ambushed. One right in front of the house where my wife grew up many years ago. He was shot 4 times in the head.

It is a very sensitive topic. It is not one to use as a challenge to an officer's credibility.

Read my sigline, sir. I'm sure you'll recognize the applicable passage. Heed the message...

There's an unwritten rule here on GT. We frown on law enforcement officers giving out information about themselves. It is too easy these days to triangulate on a person using very little information.

You've asked two questions that with Ohio Copper's screen name, just might let you ID him. Ohio, 100 year veteran, shot, ambushed, lived... not that tough.

Now, Ohio Copper is one to put more emotion into his posts than, say, Sam Spade. Don't let that fool you. They both have street sense as well as book knowledge. Ohio goes street on you a lot. Sam goes all book, which is scary some of the time, well, because he is right. At least no one comes up with facts to prove him wrong.

That's why Ohio is more fun for y'all. The 'Street', that's a lot of experience that develops into gut knowledge. Some of that gut knowledge is real difficult to explain and is subject to "Yeeaaahhh, riiiggghhhttt" some of the time, unless you too have been there/done that, in one way or another.

But, back to using being ambushed as a qualifier, let's not. Why not ask, "How do you avoid being ambushed?"

WAIT, wait, wait, he can't answer that in detail...it's stuff like that on the internet that gets cops killed or wounded.

Sorry...
I'd just like to know how long he's been a cop. He brought up ambush, not me. He seems to speak with experience on this and other subject. I'm asking about this. He's been shot too?

What's the big deal? Simple question.

How about a range? More than 20?


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Old 04-23-2013, 10:23   #459
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What do you know about the totality of circumstances surrounding that video (the house, the info the Cops had, the location, etc)?


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"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened."

"If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters".

"A person who won't reason has no advantage over one who can't reason."

"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored."

“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”


Originally Posted by Rooster Rugburn:
Didn't the whole sheepdog thing actually start right here on Glock Talk? A bunch of wannabees bought a bunch of T-shirts and took an oath to defend those who won't defend themselves?
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Old 04-23-2013, 14:18   #460
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And what happened to "chief" Compass upon his utterance of that infamous phrase and his other dastardly deeds?

Katrina is the vile, evil, rank smelling example of a law enforcement situation gone bad, the corpse that you and others just love digging up and parading around when someone says, "...what happens when they decide gun owners are the enemy..." or some similar drivel.

So, what did happen after Katrina in New Orleans, in Louisiana, in countless other states as the direct result of the lessons learned from the political leadership disaster in NOLA?

Are those lessons and resulting actions of no importance to y'all?

Have either of you offered to sponsor, to initiate FOIA requests for all videos and still images as well as audio recordings of the searches? Oh hell no you haven't.

It is easier to ***** and complain, drag out the dead bodies and bemoan the unthinkable future than to examine what really happened, especially if when examined and put into real-time perspective it is revealed that the behavior during those hours was acceptable and should be used as a standard going forward. It might happen...

Sure, there will be court cases. Civil rights lawyers have spawn to feed, too. And there will probably be decisions going in both directions based on good and bad behavior as perceived by the courts.


Crap, guys, we learned a lot from Katrina. Laws were passed to prevent repeats of what happened. LE policies were rewritten. Some changes made news. Most didn't. A lot were along the lines of "If anyone in this agency tries that ****, you will be lucky to get a school crossing guard job!"

If I am wrong about any of that, someone actually in law enforcement, please correct me.

The issue, and the focal point of any changes based on Boston and Watertown, should be on the laws and case law supporting them first, then the politicians who used them.

Interestingly enough, there are those asking in one breath why didn't LE do more to prevent the men from planting the bombs, as in have a greater bomb detection presence, and in the next breath complaining about the police presence used to find the second bomber and other bombs he may have possessed. Ain't that special...
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So are all y'all finding Constitutional issue with the searches going to initiate and or join a Class Action against the City, State and Federal agencies who conducted the searches?

Seriously, will you direct all your bravado here into energy toward legal actions to define restrictions on such actions in the future?
What's happening on this frontier?
Anyone know? ... Anyone??

Hope I'm not just beating on dead horse!



Do I have to answer own question? ... Again??

Last edited by OldSchool64; 04-23-2013 at 15:33..
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