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Old 04-14-2013, 04:13   #21
vafish
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Here in VA I think a 14" PGO shotgun might be legal.



§ 18.2-299. Definitions.

When used in this article:

"Sawed-off shotgun" means any weapon, loaded or unloaded, originally designed as a shoulder weapon, utilizing a self-contained cartridge from which a number of ball shot pellets or projectiles may be fired simultaneously from a smooth or rifled bore by a single function of the firing device and which has a barrel length of less than 18 inches for smooth bore weapons and 16 inches for rifled weapons. Weapons of less than .225 caliber shall not be included.

"Sawed-off rifle" means a rifle of any caliber, loaded or unloaded, which expels a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is designed as a shoulder weapon with a barrel or barrels length of less than 16 inches or which has been modified to an overall length of less than 26 inches.

"Crime of violence" applies to and includes any of the following crimes or an attempt to commit any of the same, namely, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, rape, mayhem, assault with intent to maim, disable, disfigure or kill, robbery, burglary, housebreaking, breaking and entering and larceny.

"Person" applies to and includes firm, partnership, association or corporation.

(Code 1950, § 18.1-268.1; 1968, c. 661; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1992, c. 580; 2004, c. 930.)


Although a prosecutor could make the argument that since the first Mossberg 500 was built with a shoulder stock, it was originally "designed" with a shoulder stock even though it was not built with a shoulder stock.

Your argument would have to be that the model 500 Cruiser was originally designed with a pistol grip.

I think you would spend a whole lot more than the $200 tax stamp to fight it in court.


Posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
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Old 04-14-2013, 04:55   #22
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If the overall length is still over 26" what's the point of putting the money into a ninja gun like this? An 18" barrelled Remington or Mossberg is about 2-3" longer with a pistol grip and I can get one for $200 with no potential legal issues.
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Old 04-14-2013, 05:26   #23
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If the overall length is still over 26" what's the point of putting the money into a ninja gun like this? An 18" barrelled Remington or Mossberg is about 2-3" longer with a pistol grip and I can get one for $200 with no potential legal issues.
The only reason to do it is because you can.

Kind of like open carrying an AR15 at Walmart.

And you know the old saying, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
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Old 04-14-2013, 19:21   #24
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If the overall length is still over 26" what's the point of putting the money into a ninja gun like this? An 18" barrelled Remington or Mossberg is about 2-3" longer with a pistol grip and I can get one for $200 with no potential legal issues.
I have been told that Super Shorty makes a good gun for breaching doors.
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Old 04-14-2013, 19:32   #25
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I guess we can conclude this thread with it might not be worth any potential trouble from law enforcement that might get confused over the barrel length legalities.
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Old 04-14-2013, 20:53   #26
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http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...0953--,00.html

Here is what is said from the Michigan State police web-site.


3. Do rifles or shotguns with collapsible/folding stocks have to be registered in Michigan?
MCL 750.222 Yes, provided the rifle or shotgun is 30 inches or less in overall length with the stock collapsed/folded but at least 26 inches and the barrel length is at least 16 inches and 18 inches respectively. Attorney General's opinion #6280: if the firearm is less than 26 inches in overall length or the barrel is less than 16 or 18 inches respectively, the firearm is considered a short-barreled rifle or shotgun and is illegal to possess. MCL 750.224d There is an exception for short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled rifles which the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms has found to be a curio, relic, antique, museum piece, or collector's item not likely to be used as a weapon.
The possessor must comply with Section 2 (License to Purchase) of Act 372.

I have seen a single shot 12 gauge with a full stock and we measured 16 1/2" barrel. The overall length on it is 32". I always wondered if that was legal to have per what I read in that statement. I believe it is.
That law in Michigan changed in January, one no longer has to register a shotgun or rifle that is under 30" OAL as a pistol as long as it is over 26".

In regard to the OP, i have a friend who has one of those firearms. It is 26.5" iong with a 14" bbl. He does not have a stamp for it and it is legal. He's never had a problem with it and even checked with the firearm division of the state police who said, yes indeed it is legal. The key here is that it was not made or converted from something that was made to be fired from the shoulder, therefore it does not fit the description or definition of a shotgun. It can be a SBS if it is not a shotgun. It can't be an AOW if it is over 26".
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Old 04-16-2013, 06:56   #27
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
If the overall length is still over 26" what's the point of putting the money into a ninja gun like this? An 18" barrelled Remington or Mossberg is about 2-3" longer with a pistol grip and I can get one for $200 with no potential legal issues.
exactly what I was thinking.
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Old 04-16-2013, 07:54   #28
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id hack off a couple of inches off my 18.5" gun if i knew the costs was a one time thing and there was a hassle free way to do so legally.
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:01   #29
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That law in Michigan changed in January, one no longer has to register a shotgun or rifle that is under 30" OAL as a pistol as long as it is over 26".

In regard to the OP, i have a friend who has one of those firearms. It is 26.5" iong with a 14" bbl. He does not have a stamp for it and it is legal. He's never had a problem with it and even checked with the firearm division of the state police who said, yes indeed it is legal. The key here is that it was not made or converted from something that was made to be fired from the shoulder, therefore it does not fit the description or definition of a shotgun. It can be a SBS if it is not a shotgun. It can't be an AOW if it is over 26".

MAC 66, Can you give the quote as well as the link to where you found that information? The link I provided came from the MSP just the other day and I am assuming when I log on to it, it is current.

Thank you
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Old 04-16-2013, 10:24   #30
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Old 04-16-2013, 15:04   #31
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MAC 66, Can you give the quote as well as the link to where you found that information? The link I provided came from the MSP just the other day and I am assuming when I log on to it, it is current.

Thank you
The wording on the State Police FAQ is wrong though the wording in the law they cited 750.222 is correct. Public act 242 of 2012 effective Jan 1, 2013 rescinded the OAL of 30". Actually it redefined a pistol in Michigan as being under 26" not 30". One no longer has to register a folding stock/pistol grip rifle/shotgun (under 30") as a pistol. In fact not only don't you have to, you can't register a rifle or shotgun as a pistol anymore. Here is a link to PA 242

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...12-PA-0242.htm

I hope that helps clear it up.
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Old 04-16-2013, 15:51   #32
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There may be a loophole there, but the feds don't have much of a sense of humor about these things. It could get expensive to prove them wrong. In the long run a $5(AOW) or even a $200(SBS) stamp will probably be cheaper and then you can make it however you want it.
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Old 04-16-2013, 18:39   #33
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The wording on the State Police FAQ is wrong though the wording in the law they cited 750.222 is correct. Public act 242 of 2012 effective Jan 1, 2013 rescinded the OAL of 30". Actually it redefined a pistol in Michigan as being under 26" not 30". One no longer has to register a folding stock/pistol grip rifle/shotgun (under 30") as a pistol. In fact not only don't you have to, you can't register a rifle or shotgun as a pistol anymore. Here is a link to PA 242

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/docume...12-PA-0242.htm

I hope that helps clear it up.

Mac66, Thanks for the link.

Clem, I completely understand what you are pointing out. My intent is to get this cleared up as I always thought my friend may have misread the law.
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Old 04-16-2013, 19:53   #34
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Here 'ya go.......

http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

One gun shop in Tucson has 'em. $800-1000+tax+$25 stamp
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Old 04-16-2013, 20:12   #35
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There may be a loophole there, but the feds don't have much of a sense of humor about these things. It could get expensive to prove them wrong. In the long run a $5(AOW) or even a $200(SBS) stamp will probably be cheaper and then you can make it however you want it.
Yep. I guess CYA no longer applies to some people. $5 tax stamp, or get your ass traded for a $5 pack of Newports.

Not me.
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Old 04-16-2013, 22:28   #36
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That's similar to the, "loophole" that allows handguns that are at least 26 inches long to have vertical forward grips. The Thompson, "pistol" did that by using a 13 inch, instead of the standard 10 inch SMG, barrel.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:31   #37
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id hack off a couple of inches off my 18.5" gun if i knew the costs was a one time thing and there was a hassle free way to do so legally.
$200 for a tax stamp and you can chop down your shotgun.

posted from my stupid smart phone, please excuse any spelling mistakes.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:15   #38
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It's classified as a pistol, same as the serbu super shorty shotgun. Although here in Minnesota you still have to get permission from your chief of police as it is considered an AOW.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:34   #39
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I have been told that Super Shorty makes a good gun for breaching doors.
So, you're an IT guy? Do you get much call for breaching doors with a shotgun? I've been a police officer and a soldier for a combined 18 years and never even had a call to practice it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vafish View Post
The only reason to do it is because you can.

Kind of like open carrying an AR15 at Walmart.

And you know the old saying, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should do it.
I agree - even assuming it's legal, like OCing a rifle in Walmart, there are probably a lot more reasons not to do it.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:57   #40
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It's classified as a pistol, same as the serbu super shorty shotgun. Although here in Minnesota you still have to get permission from your chief of police as it is considered an AOW.
I don't know about MN laws, but a Serbu Super Shorty is not classified as a pistol federally due to the smooth bore and forward grip. It is an AOW (NFA weapon) that requires a $5 tax stamp.
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