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Old 04-07-2013, 21:16   #101
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Clearly you need some of both. Banks can't usually lend money they don't have but businesses aren't created without customers.

Government interferes with the process by injecting money into the economy to make up for the lack of funds in banking. This allows growth without savings but it ultimately leads to inflation.

If we ever get out of this depression, it will be because the government has printed a huge amount of money for which future generations are indebted. Even then it hasn't worked.

If you don't believe that 'buying' is important to an economy, why does Wall Street pay attention to 'consumer confidence'? Or the 'purchasing managers' report? Buying is demand and demand increases supply and increasing supply causes expansion and employment.

The problem with this recovery is that while the GDP has recovered nicely and the stock market is at record levels, employment hasn't improved much. The only reason that unemployment is dropping is because people are losing eligibility.

I maintain that if a person hasn't found a job in 26 weeks, they probably won't work again. The idea of providing unemployment benefits for 99 weeks is ridiculous. Almost two years without getting out of their jammies! They're never going back to work. So when they run out of unemployment, they apply for disability.

This is what the country has to look forward to. It didn't happen on my watch!

Richard
It didn't happen on your watch!?

You vote, don't you?

I guess that's another boomer trait, lack of social responsibility.
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Old 04-07-2013, 21:19   #102
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Ah the arrogance of the dependent class.


Posted using Outdoor Hub Campfire

Yup. They'd never make it without the government propping them up.
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Old 04-07-2013, 21:56   #103
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One thing we didn't do is train our replacements. If we had, the later generations would have kicked us under a bus decades ago. OTOH, we didn't train our replacements so you youngsters can pretty much count on a failing society. Nobody knows how to do anything.
In many professions there is a graying of the workforce.

In the building trades there are a lot of aging baby boomers.

Not a lot of young guys; I guess they do not want physical work even though you can make a very good living if you are good.

Most appraisers are aging baby boomers.
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Old 04-07-2013, 22:01   #104
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I've been a CPA for about 30 years. I am amazed how many clients, some with 6 figure incomes, have no savings, no retirement plan, but do have a first and second mortgage and home equity line of credit.

Sometimes I can get a client to fund an IRA, SEP, or contribute the max to his company's 401k plan. Sadly, much too often, they end up raiding their retirement plans within a few years.
Reading GT, you would think everyone is rich and prudent with money.

I see the reality you see. A lot of people have nothing saved.
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Old 04-07-2013, 22:09   #105
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
I don't know. Honestly it keeps me up at night, sometimes. My daughter is 9.

I do know that I'm not going to steal their money to fund my lifestyle.
As if you have a choice.

The Government is stealing from our children. We are just part of the system.
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Old 04-07-2013, 22:27   #106
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Many of the boomers are still working because the cutoff date is in '64 or so. Personally, I consider the boomers to be those born almost immediately after the war because I could have easily had offspring by '64 or so.
I was born in the early 1960ís. I am called a boomer but closer to the Generation X than to those born in 1946.

I hear the ďdie baby boomers, dieĒ from the younger generation thinking we caused this when it started in 1935.

Donít worry about me. I am not retiring. If I make it to old age and become nursing home material, you can turn me into Soylent Green. I will not be at the mercy of anyone.

Hey, Iíll be screwed out of SS too. If you younger people can end it now, fine with me to have a lower tax burden from here on.

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The problem is that the cost of paying for the majority who are unemployable will soon overwhelm the ability of the working class to pay.
Only 110,000,000 in the private work force versus 88,000,000 supported by the Government. It is ending sooner rather than later.
Richard
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:35   #107
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Clearly you need some of both. Banks can't usually lend money they don't have but businesses aren't created without customers.

Government interferes with the process by injecting money into the economy to make up for the lack of funds in banking. This allows growth without savings but it ultimately leads to inflation.

If we ever get out of this depression, it will be because the government has printed a huge amount of money for which future generations are indebted. Even then it hasn't worked.

If you don't believe that 'buying' is important to an economy, why does Wall Street pay attention to 'consumer confidence'? Or the 'purchasing managers' report? Buying is demand and demand increases supply and increasing supply causes expansion and employment.

The problem with this recovery is that while the GDP has recovered nicely and the stock market is at record levels, employment hasn't improved much. The only reason that unemployment is dropping is because people are losing eligibility.

I maintain that if a person hasn't found a job in 26 weeks, they probably won't work again. The idea of providing unemployment benefits for 99 weeks is ridiculous. Almost two years without getting out of their jammies! They're never going back to work. So when they run out of unemployment, they apply for disability.

This is what the country has to look forward to. It didn't happen on my watch!

Richard
Did you miss this part of my post?

"I am not saying people spending money is not also important."

Fact is without savings you don't get investment.

It takes income or borrowing (from someone's savings) to get spending.

Look around at all the jobs created when someone builds a house or starts / expands a business.

Ask yourself why poor countries stay poor. If you just gave everyone in a poor country cash but did not allow any savings - they had to spend everything every week - what would happen?

Bottom line is it takes both capital and labor to make an economy work -

Your position that savings is not important is ignorant.

Even in this post you claim that --

This allows growth without savings but it ultimately leads to inflation.


But somehow still think savings is not important.

It would be a good time to admit you are wrong and change your position about the important of savings.
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:37   #108
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In a word: NO!

It's a joke. I started paying taxes when I qa 15 yrs old. Been forced to pay in to social security for 35 years and probably won't get **** back out of it.

What's worse is my 21 yr old deaf son who is in college and could benefit from SSI, and what I have paid in has been denied benefits three times and is having to secure an attorney to get them to comply.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:00   #109
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People on the right say the social security is bankrupt. People on the Left say it is fine as long as the money is not pillaged. Who is telling the truth?
Little bit of deeper reading (with links to the Treasury website), but the three links, read together, explain how it is NOT solvent at this time.

http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/16

http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/30

http://www.craigsteiner.us/articles/78

It was that SS surplus that permitted Clinton to come the CLOSEST to actually balancing the budget, but subtract the SS surplus for 1999 and his numbers are a bit less.

the articles illustrate the accounting gymnastics our elected officials go through to "balance the books".
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:04   #110
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so the money was pillaged.it was invested in Treasury bills, that are now not worth as much.and the system has been in the red for two years.
is that it in a nutshell?
It was not invested...SSA gave their surplus to the other part of the Federal gov't and received the T-Bills (IOUs with no real value) in return. That surplus was then SPENT by the non-SSA part of the Federal Gov't.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:41   #111
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I've paid in since I was 18 and now I'm 53......it better be there in a few years. If not bullets better be flying....I had no choice, unlike my parents who bought into it. One died and did not see a dime and the other now collects at 80.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:44   #112
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Originally Posted by GlockViking View Post
It was not invested...SSA gave their surplus to the other part of the Federal gov't and received the T-Bills (IOUs with no real value) in return. That surplus was then SPENT by the non-SSA part of the Federal Gov't.
Think of it sort of like a husband (normal budget) and wife (SS & Medicare).


Husband is earning $100k a year but is spending $140K -

Wife is earning $75K and only spending $50K.

Combined the family is earning $175K and spending $190K.

Husband gives wife an IOU for $25K every year and agrees to pay her 2% interest - and borrows the other $20K from others.

Do this for 30 years - husband owes the wife $750K plus interest of $265K - let's just round it off to an even $1 million.

If you are in the camp that says SS is fine then you think that when the wife needs the money the husband will give it to her - no problem - even though he also owes a pile of money to others (from borrowing the $20K per year over and above what the wife earned).

If you are in the camp that says SS is in deep trouble you think that when the wife needs the money the husband will not be able to pay it back.

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Old 04-08-2013, 10:55   #113
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Originally Posted by Z71bill View Post
Think of it sort of like a husband (normal budget) and wife (SS & Medicare).


Husband is earning $100k a year but is spending $140K -

Wife is earning $75K and only spending $50K.

Combined the family is earning $175K and spending $190K.

Husband gives wife an IOU for $25K every year and agrees to pay her 2% interest - and borrows the other $20K from others.

Do this for 30 years - husband owes the wife $750K plus interest of $265K - let's just round it off to an even $1 million.

If you are in the camp that says SS is fine then you think that when the wife needs the money the husband will give it to her - no problem - even though he also owes a pile of money to others (from borrowing the $20K per year over and above what the wife earned).

If you are in the camp that says SS is in deep trouble you think that when the wife needs the money the husband will not be able to pay it back.

Good boiled down version...I had to read my linked articles a few times before it really sank in...

I just turned 50 and I would be happy if I was given the back money I paid into the plus rate of inflation. Retirement is an individual responsibility and SS needs to be phased out to mandatory PRIVATE accounts.

No one should get back more than they paid into the system, but for a myriad factors, most people will receive MORE in SS checks than they paid into it.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:57   #114
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Good boiled down version...I had to read my linked articles a few times before it really sank in...

I just turned 50 and I would be happy if I was given the back money I paid into the plus rate of inflation. Retirement is an individual responsibility and SS needs to be phased out to mandatory PRIVATE accounts.

No one should get back more than they paid into the system, but for a myriad factors, most people will receive MORE in SS checks than they paid into it.
Agree......I have a nice retirement account but earned it. I don't plan on giving away my SS that I was forced to pay in. I want it back with interest dammit!
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:08   #115
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I don't plan on giving away my SS that I was forced to pay in
Too late
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I want it back with interest dammit!
It'll have to be stolen from someone else. Is that what you want?
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:09   #116
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I just turned 50 and I would be happy if I was given the back money I paid into the plus rate of inflation. Retirement is an individual responsibility and SS needs to be phased out to mandatory PRIVATE accounts.
I've said it before in other threads, and it's worth repeating. I don't know if SS will be solvant or not from when I retire (I'm early 50s) until I and my spouse are both dead. So if given a choice to opt out of SS now, I'd also like to have all my SS payments refunded.

The closer I come to retirement/collecting age, the opt out option becomes less and less viable to us.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:12   #117
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Too late


It'll have to be stolen from someone else. Is that what you want?
I wrestle with that inclination...someone is going to have to take a "hit" if this system is to survive.

I'd be willing to take a cut if it was part of a gradual plan to eliminate the public system (SS) and transition to a completely private system (401k system)

I want what I paid, plus the rate of inflation, nothing more.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:14   #118
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It would be a good time to admit you are wrong and change your position about the important of savings.
Deposit book savings (which is what I think of when I think about 'savings', not the stock market) is only one source of funds for banks to lend. They also borrow money from the Treasury. If the feds want to kickstart the economy, they make that rate as low as possible.

During my early working years, savings rates were often about 10% sometimes into the mid 11%. I see in 2005 we bottomed out at something in the 1% range. We're in the 2% range now.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/PSAVERT.txt

But the numbers may not mean much because they are calculated as a percentage of disposable income. What if nobody has any disposable income? I would like to see the percentage against GDP.

We still have an economy but we sure don't have any savings. Must not be too important!

So, why don't we have any savings? Because the banks don't pay any interest. CDs are worthless, money market funds are worthless, nobody wants to pay anything because the Fed is keeping the rates down. There's no point in saving money if there's no return.

OTOH, there won't be any expansion if business has to pay much interest on borrowings. They just don't believe in the future enough to pay interest.

All in, an unhealthy situation. But not my concern.

Richard
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:15   #119
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I want what I paid, plus the rate of inflation, nothing more.
And I want to Jello wrestle naked with the Swedish bikini team, but that's not going to happen either. Forget about what you "want" and think about how to fix this mess. Your money's gone. You're not getting it back.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:23   #120
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Too late


It'll have to be stolen from someone else. Is that what you want?
I want it from their hides in Washington! They all need to go....one at a time if that's what it takes.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:34   #121
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If the democrats gain control of the house and senate, I think I know where the money to fund SS will come from. Can you say 401K? Or saving account? Or capital gains?
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:40   #122
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How about me keeping the money earn so I can fund my future?

I'm tired of funding other people now, only to have those programs insolvent when I get there. It's slavery!

Tax evaders are the real patriots.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:50   #123
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And I want to Jello wrestle naked with the Swedish bikini team, but that's not going to happen either. Forget about what you "want" and think about how to fix this mess. Your money's gone. You're not getting it back.
I am well aware of that...I am stating that I (for one) would take a diminished SS payout if I knew it was part of a transition to an entirely private system....FIXING the SS problem.

We will all get less, but to flat out give nothing back to those that paid for years is the WORST option.

I think it was Chile that transitioned from public to private and that is the model we should use.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:58   #124
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I would think a lot of that money went to subsidize your education, to subsidize farmers so that you had plenty to eat, to fund medical research so you can live longer and be free of some diseases. I'm sure there are many more examples. So how about you little *****ing freeloaders giving me back the money that was spent on you.
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Old 04-08-2013, 13:27   #125
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I would think a lot of that money went to subsidize your education, to subsidize farmers so that you had plenty to eat, to fund medical research so you can live longer and be free of some diseases. I'm sure there are many more examples. So how about you little *****ing freeloaders giving me back the money that was spent on you.
Ah yes, somehow the working people are the freeloaders. That makes tons of sense.
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