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Old 04-10-2013, 20:18   #226
Atlas
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Originally Posted by moeman View Post
Safer than Wall street for the average investor. Just think how bad off we would have been if we privatized it back in 2005 or so when that was the hot button. All of that money would have been hit in 2008.

The system is solid. Some problems, yes... but workable.

Your statement reminds of a young child who sits and covers his eyes with his hand assuming that if he can't see you, then you can't see him..

"The system is solid.." ???
That money is evaporating as we speak.
The congress + the Fed are inflating the value out of your SS fund and your 401K at "ludicrous-speed".

Deficit spending + fractional reserve banking + graduated income tax = systematic theft.


It's like you're lying comfortably in your bed believing all is well while the burglars are downstairs stealing all your valuables.

.
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Old 04-10-2013, 20:59   #227
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The system is solid. Some problems, yes... but workable.
Pyramid schemes are never solid. You're living in LaLa Land.
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Old 04-10-2013, 22:56   #228
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AC37,

Very nicely written. Where did you go to school and what year did you graduate?
Thank you for the kind words. I graduated high school in '99. Never attended college proper; only an unaccredited 2-year Bible school immediately after. Largely educated through continuous self-study from that point forward. I am actually in the process of writing my first book, which is has a lot to do with the subject at hand.

There are actually any one of a number of very viable solutions to this issue that all have different details but the same basic essence that to date they have all been largely disregarded because everybody would get some of what they want, and no one would get everything they want. One of the least of which would be the basics of Podwich's proposal on the first page of this thread, which would represent real progress toward a long-term solution on this issue, rather than just the continued band-aids over an arterial bleed that at best are slightly delaying the imminent and final culmination of this long-running issue. So, since we are all interested in being 100% right and not giving an inch to those we disagree with who also raise valid points as we have, the problem continues to grow larger by the moment and threatens the future of the entire nation if not more given our size and position globally, because each of us are all thinking only of our own and immediate interests, and really not at all about that of our neighbor right next to us, with whom we typically share the same basic attitudes, concerns, interests, and perspectives - both right and wrong alike.

IOW - for any or all of any proposed solutions to work, it depends on us, individually, learning and walking in one of the most fundamental and central Truths of all, which has a vast array of various implementations, details, and specifics, which is why and how to Love our neighbors just as we are meant to Love ourselves.

The above may sound like a mouthful, but that is the basic gist of it from what I have seen.
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Old 04-10-2013, 23:03   #229
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...
There are actually any one of a number of very viable solutions to this issue ....
One solution would be get the government out of my personal life. Period.

As posted previously, I've paid into SS since 1973 and I will happily relinquish all claims to that money in exchange for the government's promise to get out of my wallet and my life for all eternity.

Anyone who believes that the federal government should EVER have any direct involvement in the personal life and affairs of individual Americans is a fool.


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Old 04-10-2013, 23:18   #230
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The system is solid. Some problems, yes... but workable.
There are a variety of non-partisan and bi-partisan entities that would disagree.

The tip of the iceberg would be the non-partisan Concord Coalition that said on their last report that spending for the big 3 entitlement programs alone - Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid - will exceed all FedGov revenue by 2021.

The system is "workable" and "solid" in the sense that the all the minor details that are traditionally argued over are ultimately and utterly immaterial; one way or the other, financial equilibrium between outlays and income has to be restored, and soon, or something far worse than just taxes going up again or the COLAs not keeping up with inflation for those on these programs is going to occur. Erskine Bowles, leader of the debt commission Obama elected awhile back, went so far as to call this issue "a cancer" that if left unchecked will definitely lead to a "fiscal armageddon" sooner rather than later.

Whether we accomplish this through a full and final descent into the communism we have played around with for decades that has broken every country that has implemented it and is directly correlated with the avoidable deaths of millions the world over, or recognize the wisdom and benefits of a better and higher way that has a proven track record and will benefit not just this generation but all those who follow remains to be seen.
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Old 04-10-2013, 23:34   #231
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...or recognize the wisdom and benefits of a better and higher way that has a proven track record and will benefit not just this generation but all those who follow remains to be seen.
And WHY should the federal government have that kind of involvement in the lives of citizens?


We are coerced by threat of violence to participate in a stupid, un-American scheme for the ostensible purpose of "helping" us to be responsible for ourselves.


WHY?
By what trick or twist of constitutional law do we justify this?

SS is nothing more than a stealth tax.
Stealth in that the money will be diverted to other purposes and worthless IOUs deposited in stead of those purloined funds.

Social Security is A LIE.... Organized institutionalized theft.
Nothing more.

.
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Old 04-10-2013, 23:46   #232
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As posted previously, I've paid into SS since 1973 and I will happily relinquish all claims to that money in exchange for the government's promise to get out of my wallet and my life for all eternity.
Which is exactly what Podwich proposes as referenced in this post you quoted, whose identical proposal is in turn is on the first page of this thread, about halfway down.

Like many others, this is a wonderful idea whose actual implementation depends entirely on get enough folks to look past their own finite, personal interests to think of their neighbor's, their country's, and see that the two are in no way in conflict, which is exactly the same essence of what it took to found this country in the first place. The US CONUS was not and still is not a perfect document in that it gives everyone what they want, but everyone came together united in common, higher purpose, and found agreement and implementation in that it was something far better than what they previously had in the Articles of Confederation. They resolved to agree on what they could agree to, and work on the rest after it had been adopted. Not a perfect method, but it was and is certainly the best one available.

Minor points need to be de-emphasized, and the central one re-emphasized, which is that these games of chicken and machismo we all play on issues like this really pale in comparison the greater issue threatening us all, and are usually resulting in less-than-optimal outcomes in which we all lose in the long run. Freedom without any resources to utilize it are as useful as all the resources in the world with no freedom to do anything with them. There is no "perfect" solution to this problem that is going to please everyone. In fact, the best solutions are often the most contentious initially. We have a myriad of great solutions with differing details already on the table as we have for decades; the essence of this issue is very simple at its core. We haven't failed in the planning department, but rather the implementation one - which is really an issue of learning to respect and treat our neighbor and his opinions as valuable and meaningful as our own.

Implementation of any proposed solution depends on all of us finding common ground to stand united in dealing with a common and greater issue, and deciding that we want to solve the greater problem that affects us all, right now, while suspending debate on less immediate concerns until a later time.

That is really the only way any issue ever truly gets resolved, anyway.
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Old 04-11-2013, 00:13   #233
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And WHY should the federal government have that kind of involvement in the lives of citizens?


We are coerced by threat of violence to participate in a stupid, un-American scheme for the ostensible purpose of "helping" us to be responsible for ourselves.


WHY?
By what trick or twist of constitutional law do we justify this?

SS is nothing more than a stealth tax.
Stealth in that the money will be diverted to other purposes and worthless IOUs deposited in stead of those purloined funds.

Social Security is A LIE.... Organized institutionalized theft.
Nothing more.

.
I find nothing in this post I disagree with. I actually took the time awhile back to look up the date referenced in your sig line, and felt a very similar way when I witnessed the USSC upholding such bad, unconstitutional, so-called "law."

The only misunderstanding herein seems to be the same one I once had until very recently.

FedGov is not holding us hostage. A majority of voters elected the current President who has accelerated our descent in full-blown communism, the AIDS of any society or civilization, TWICE.

No one man can terrorize an entire nation unless we are all his accomplices. We cannot view the President as separate, in absence of all those, even a majority of voters, who elected him not just once, but twice - many of them, very demonstrably and verifiably based largely on his race, and try to scapegoat him accordingly, any more than such would be reasonable to do with a certain party, a certain branch of gov't, or even all of Fedgov. Likewise, Fedgov cannot hold an entire nation hostage against its will. I used to think this was the case, and after the last few years I now see nothing could be further from the truth. A nation of the ignorant and uninformed fell hook, line, and sinker for the deceit of communism, as many entire nations have done before. This is nothing new and certainly should serve as no surprise. Where light and truth are not, by definition, darkness is - for darkness is not the opposite of light, but its absence.

These issues cannot and will not be fixed top-down, by the latest, greatest political candidate we feel aligned with. This nation was formed by self-reliant individuals, and can only be fixed by self-reliant individuals who are united in common, greater purpose. These issues can only be fixed bottom-up, grassroots, by and with an informed electorate that is serious about doing the thinking for themselves - rather than trying to delegate someone to do all of it for them. We have been trying to fix them top-down for decades, and the bottom line is it just isn't working and never will - because the theory behind such is fundamentally flawed. "Give me liberty of give me death" has become, "Give me liberty of give me death...because I'm too lazy to get up and get it for myself!"

If we want a better government and a better system, we need to start creating and implementing it. No one is simply going to hand it to us or do it for us. That is the exact thinking that has led to the system we now have. In turn, it has deteriorated in exactly the way it has in large part because of a lack of individual responsibility in moving from ignorance to education, from simply going along with the crowd to putting no head above our own as we educate ourselves.

In short, we can't claim individual rights separate from the individual responsibilities they are inexorably intertwined with. Wanting, demanding individual liberty but not individual responsibility makes no sense. This nation was founded not by those simply angry or frustrated about issues - but those who found the courage to stand up and personally do something about resolving them, while associating with any and all who felt, did, were exactly the same way.

No one is holding us hostage except our own lack of courage to stand up and personally do something about all the "problems" we perceive in the world around us - which begins and continues with self-education and self-improvement, and the decision to elevate the attitudes we have and the company we keep from that of merely problem-identifiers to that of problem-solvers.

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Old 04-11-2013, 06:09   #234
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I find nothing in this post I disagree with. I actually took the time awhile back to look up the date referenced in your sig line, and felt a very similar way when I witnessed the USSC upholding such bad, unconstitutional, so-called "law."

The only misunderstanding herein seems to be the same one I once had until very recently.

FedGov is not holding us hostage. A majority of voters elected the current President who has accelerated our descent in full-blown communism, the AIDS of any society or civilization, TWICE.

No one man can terrorize an entire nation unless we are all his accomplices. We cannot view the President as separate, in absence of all those, even a majority of voters, who elected him not just once, but twice - many of them, very demonstrably and verifiably based largely on his race, and try to scapegoat him accordingly, any more than such would be reasonable to do with a certain party, a certain branch of gov't, or even all of Fedgov. Likewise, Fedgov cannot hold an entire nation hostage against its will. I used to think this was the case, and after the last few years I now see nothing could be further from the truth. A nation of the ignorant and uninformed fell hook, line, and sinker for the deceit of communism, as many entire nations have done before. This is nothing new and certainly should serve as no surprise. Where light and truth are not, by definition, darkness is - for darkness is not the opposite of light, but its absence.

These issues cannot and will not be fixed top-down, by the latest, greatest political candidate we feel aligned with. This nation was formed by self-reliant individuals, and can only be fixed by self-reliant individuals who are united in common, greater purpose. These issues can only be fixed bottom-up, grassroots, by and with an informed electorate that is serious about doing the thinking for themselves - rather than trying to delegate someone to do all of it for them. We have been trying to fix them top-down for decades, and the bottom line is it just isn't working and never will - because the theory behind such is fundamentally flawed. "Give me liberty of give me death" has become, "Give me liberty of give me death...because I'm too lazy to get up and get it for myself!"

If we want a better government and a better system, we need to start creating and implementing it. No one is simply going to hand it to us or do it for us. That is the exact thinking that has led to the system we now have. In turn, it has deteriorated in exactly the way it has in large part because of a lack of individual responsibility in moving from ignorance to education, from simply going along with the crowd to putting no head above our own as we educate ourselves.

In short, we can't claim individual rights separate from the individual responsibilities they are inexorably intertwined with. Wanting, demanding individual liberty but not individual responsibility makes no sense. This nation was founded not by those simply angry or frustrated about issues - but those who found the courage to stand up and personally do something about resolving them, while associating with any and all who felt, did, were exactly the same way.

No one is holding us hostage except our own lack of courage to stand up and personally do something about all the "problems" we perceive in the world around us - which begins and continues with self-education and self-improvement, and the decision to elevate the attitudes we have and the company we keep from that of merely problem-identifiers to that of problem-solvers.
This is a very well written post filled with wrong.


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Old 04-11-2013, 06:18   #235
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I've been talking to a few people about this, and I am pretty surprised to find a fairly common theme. And it doesn't seem to matter the background of these people.

"I PAID MY MONEY INTO THIS SYSTEM FOR YEARS! MONEY I WORKED HARD FOR! I WANT THE MONEY THAT IS OWED ME!"

um, well mike, the money is gone.

"I DON'T CARE! THE MONEY WENT INTO THE GENERAL FUND, TAKE IT BACK OUT OF THE GENERAL FUND! IT ISN'T MY FAULT THEY MISMANAGED MY MONEY!"

One of the guys who said this would get most of your votes for president on all other issues.
THose of us in the 50+ range need to be willing to take a reduced benefit...IF, and only IF...it is part of a real plan to eventually privatize the entire system...

It is unsustainable in its current state, escpecially after I saw that, just to service the interest on the debt (different topic), will consume $800 billion by 2030-ish
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:25   #236
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And WHY should the federal government have that kind of involvement in the lives of citizens?


We are coerced by threat of violence to participate in a stupid, un-American scheme for the ostensible purpose of "helping" us to be responsible for ourselves.


WHY?
By what trick or twist of constitutional law do we justify this?

SS is nothing more than a stealth tax.
Stealth in that the money will be diverted to other purposes and worthless IOUs deposited in stead of those purloined funds.

Social Security is A LIE.... Organized institutionalized theft.
Nothing more.

.
Unfortunately, in a country of 300+ million people, not everyone holds that view.

I am with you 100 percent philisophically, but there aren't enough like-minded people in the country, so we have to find the best solution for a terrible human-induced problem
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:39   #237
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This is a very well written post filled with wrong.


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I couldn't agree more...

Its filled with feel good platitudes that belong in a Church sermon not a treatise on government.

People who advocate for government spending like SS and Medicare believe:

1. They can spend the money more wisely than the people who earned it.

2. They can do good with money they took from people at the point of a gun!

3. That politicians will spend the money based on economic principles rather than political concerns.


This is why Social Security is a farse. The richest segment of the population BY FAR is people over age 60. Yet we take money from people struggling to start their lives, families, careers and transfer it to unproductive people who again, have more accumulated wealth. Why? Old people vote. Young people do not. You can certainly blame the young folks for being stupid and not paying attention. But that doesn't make it moral nor does it make it economically sound policy.
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Old 04-11-2013, 06:48   #238
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THose of us in the 50+ range need to be willing to take a reduced benefit...IF, and only IF...it is part of a real plan to eventually privatize the entire system...

It is unsustainable in its current state, escpecially after I saw that, just to service the interest on the debt (different topic), will consume $800 billion by 2030-ish
That's if interest rates stay at current lows. If rates rise even a little we are sunk. If rates rise to 4% we will pay almost 50% of the federal budget in interest on the debt!

What's even worse? When (not if) price inflation kicks in as a result of our current monetary policy we have no ability to manage it with interest rates because if the Fed does raise rates it will bankrupt the Federal government due to rising costs of borrowing.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:23   #239
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Obama is not cutting SS $, he is redirecting the money to other stuff. That is why they call cutting SS "raising revenue."

Obama cut SS taxes 2% last two years to make it look bad. It is back up the 6.2% SS tax.

For 2012, the maximum amount of taxable earnings is $110,100. In 2013, the maximum amount of taxable earnings will be $113,700.

Look at the graph of chain CPI. It does not keep up with inflation. What cost 10,000 in 2012 may cost 13,000 in 2014.

http://my.firedoglake.com/tomthumb/2...r-senators-on/
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:25   #240
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Since chain cpi does not keep up with inflation in a few years after retirement you could lose 3-4 month of food.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:27   #241
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Since chain cpi does not keep up with inflation in a few years after retirement you could lose 3-4 month of food.
Good. Maybe that'll be a lesson to others to make better choices when they're young.


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Old 04-11-2013, 07:30   #242
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Youth's future is senior. No way around it. He is cutting our youth's future income.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:32   #243
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75% drawing SS draw early and take a lower benefit because they do not have funds to make. Life is unpredictable. You maybe disable tomorrow and depend on SS.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:33   #244
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Youth's future is senior. No way around it. He is cutting our youth's future income.
Relying on a government handout in retirement may be your future (or present) but it isn't mine.

You should've been more responsible.


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Old 04-11-2013, 07:34   #245
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SS is also taxed if you make other income.

SS is taxed to. The taxes paid on SS goes in the general funds

You will have to pay federal taxes on your Social Security benefits if you file a federal tax return as an individual and your total income is more than $25,000. If you file a joint return, you will have to pay taxes if you and your spouse have a total income of more than $32,000.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answ...urity-benefits
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:37   #246
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SS keeps many seniors out of state supported nursing homes. Some nursing homes are 40,000-70,000 depending on the state and location. It is cheaper on the taxpayers to keep seniors at home if possible.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:45   #247
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Obama is proposing Chain CPI for veteran retirement too. Not just SS.
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:46   #248
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SS is also taxed if you make other income.

SS is taxed to. The taxes paid on SS goes in the general funds

You will have to pay federal taxes on your Social Security benefits if you file a federal tax return as an individual and your total income is more than $25,000. If you file a joint return, you will have to pay taxes if you and your spouse have a total income of more than $32,000.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answ...urity-benefits
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Old 04-11-2013, 07:47   #249
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SS keeps many seniors out of state supported nursing homes. Some nursing homes are 40,000-70,000 depending on the state and location. It is cheaper on the taxpayers to keep seniors at home if possible.
End state nursing homes.

Problem solved


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Old 04-11-2013, 07:47   #250
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Obama is proposing Chain CPI for veteran retirement too. Not just SS.
Good


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