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Old 03-27-2013, 20:39   #251
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Originally Posted by fork14 View Post
The scalper would only come into play if'in you were too lazy or stupid to get the tickets for face value for the event you wanted to attend in the first place. Otherwise, you either would have not gone to the event or would be presented with the "scalper" option of being able to attend the event but with a self sustained penalty of paying the "going rate" thru the "scalper". The final decision is yours.
If you give the "scalper" your money you have decided that the price was warranted. That is capitalism.

INVALID ARGUMENT

If you have a "very limited income" per you: Maybe you should stop your gallant crusade against interwebs trolls with your very scientific youtube references and maybe actually read the responses. You'd be a much better informed human.
Wow.

How I explained that paying 38€ per ticket to a scalper was a good deal to me. I got a service that I needed for that much money.
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Old 03-27-2013, 20:43   #252
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"and selling new ammo that cost $25 a brick for $50?"

I have 20 or 30 bricks of Wolf Match Target (and Extra) that I bought when it was $15/brick. If I sell it for $50 to $80 a brick, am I going to Hell?

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Old 03-27-2013, 20:49   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBT View Post
"and selling new ammo that cost $25 a brick for $50?"

I have 20 or 30 bricks of Wolf Match Target (and Extra) that I bought when it was $15/brick. If I sell it for $50 to $80 a brick, am I going to Hell?

John
No. You will not go to hell. The ammo is subsonic.
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Old 03-27-2013, 20:50   #254
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Originally Posted by JohnBT View Post
"and selling new ammo that cost $25 a brick for $50?"

I have 20 or 30 bricks of Wolf Match Target (and Extra) that I bought when it was $15/brick. If I sell it for $50 to $80 a brick, am I going to Hell?

John
Yes, you immoral person born to a woman and a man who are not legally married.

I suggest you google the 4th Circle of hell to find out what punishment awaits you.

You might even be going to Bolgia 7
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Old 03-27-2013, 21:07   #255
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I guess people do not understand supply and demand... I bought a brand new Colt LE6920 MP for $1800, I already knew that it was $1200-$1300 from Walmart. I was willing to pay the going value for it especially since I haven't been able to find this model for a very long time. It's outfitted with all magpul accessories etc. I wanted it, so I paid extra for it... I don't see a problem. This same model used was going for $2800 on gun auctions online so I figured I got a "deal". Regardless of what he paid for it, I'm happy with it. He could have sold it for a lot more.

...Waiting for the trolls to start flaming...
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Old 03-27-2013, 23:05   #256
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It's not all bad. I have been looking for 5.7x28mm ammo ever since I bought a PS90 in January. Cheapest ammo I have been able to find was at $1 a round. I bought 500 rounds of SS195 at that price just to have some ammo for my rifle.

Earlier this week I noticed an add on gunlisting.org for 5.7 ammo.

Add was for 1530 rounds of SS197 ammo (40 g plinking ammo) for $1000. That is a better price than I have been seeing anywhere so I agreed to take the entire case.

When I examined the ammo I realized the seller must have been unable to read. He thought there was only 30 rounds per box (5.7 ammo comes in a truly tiny box), when in reality these were 50 round boxes.

Just to be clear, I asked him again, $1000 for this carton of ammo? He agreed, so I paid him his money. I got 2550 rounds of ammo which works out to a bit less than $0.40 a round (yahoo!). I was checking it out and realized that 700 rounds of it was SS195 (the higher velocity self defense ammo). This ammo is getting really hard to find and has been going for a premium over SS197.

I am now good for 5.7 ammo (3000 round is enough to satisfy even my horder instincts). Now I need to get setup to reload it. I am actually finding myself interested in picking up a FiveSeven pistol now, although I will wait until after the current craziness has ended and the price has returned to normal ($1K).

What is truly amazing is I could sell 1000 rounds of it and recover my investment (and have 1500 rounds for free). However I am just glad to have achieved ammo independence and will greedily keep it all to myself.
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Old 03-28-2013, 00:00   #257
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It sucked in '08 and it sucks now. If you're out of ammo right now you'll have to pay more or wait it out. Like it or not, it is what it is.

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Old 03-28-2013, 00:34   #258
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Originally Posted by 427 View Post
What's wrong with buying and flipping? People do it all the time with things other than firearms and associated accessories? Please explain.

What's unethical with buying and flipping? People do it all the time with things other than firearms and associated accessories? Please explain.


So you resort to the name calling? Nice.


Apparently, you think people who buy and flip are scumbags.

Please explain how buying and selling ammo is any different than buying and flipping any other commodity. Please.
My problem is this - When a dude goes in, at 7am, because he's retired, to walmart when they're stocking the shelves, and walks to the counter with the entire cart they're stocking the shelves with, so when I come in at 6pm after I close my business, it's all gone. Then, that same dude is out on the side of the road, selling 115g FMJ 9mm for $27 a box, the same boxes he bought this morning for $13. Sure, he beat me there, and first come first served, early bird gets the worm, yada yada.

If I wanna go out and plink 150 rounds with my IDPA club, it shouldn't cost $90 for JUST THE AMMO. They're just pandering to fear mongering "OMG ALL THE AMMO IS GONE!". Due to the fact that I refuse to support "scum bags" who flip the things I use regularly for my entertainment, I don't get to shoot. Sure, that may be my fault, or the fact that I flat out can't afford the extra $45 to line some fat retirees pocket. I make my money in an honest fashion, not taking advantage of an unfortunate situation. Especially not from those that I'm a group of. Most of these guys flipping ammo aren't regular shooters, but firearm enthusiasts with some extra dough to invest.

TLDR; You're taking advantage of an unfortunate situation to make a quick easy buck, off of people who are slightly less fortunate, for whatever reason. It's not illegal, so therefore not "wrong", but it sure as hell ain't right either.
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:26   #259
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The guy hanging out on the side of the road selling ammo from Wal-Mart is providing a service to folks who can't get to the store to when the ammo is put on the shelf.

"it shouldn't cost $90 for JUST THE AMMO."

Reality, my man, look at reality. Stop living in the world of shouldn't.

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Old 03-28-2013, 06:59   #260
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If he was on the side of the road selling the box he paid 13 for for 16.50 would that be ok?
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:45   #261
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
And ?
Is that really a problem?
Never said anything about it being a problem. I do think ammo shortages do have more to do with the greed of a free market than anything else. Its not an issue for me because I have ammo, might be for those that don't and can't afford to pay $3 per round of 223....
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:36   #262
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Two simple questions asked and ignored for the umpteenth time.


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Ill answer the first one. The market price is what the market is selling it for. It is what PSA, midway, local places, Walmart, etc are selling it for. The scalpels that buy just to resell with no intent to use are not determining market price. They are trying to artificially inflate the market price.

As for the second one. I believe it is unethical / an ******* move to go out of your way in a time of need to buy something for the sole purpose to sell it and make a buck. I know people's perception of what is right and wrong is different so we may not agree but it is what I think.

For the record I have sold some stuff and bought some stuff from acquaintances on forums lately that was kept at pre panic prices. You call it respect maybe? Why should you treat a stranger with any less than someone you know?

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Old 03-28-2013, 08:41   #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye16 View Post
Ill answer the first one. The market price is what the market is selling it for. It is what PSA, midway, local places, Walmart, etc are selling it for. The scalpels that buy just to resell with no intent to use are not determining market price. They are trying to artificially inflate the market price.
If PSA, Midway, Walmart etc al have none, they are not the market. They, then, become irrelevant to market price.

Those places and people who actually have product are the market suppliers.

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Definition of 'Market Price'
The current price at which an asset or service can be bought or sold. Economic theory contends that the market price converges at a point where the forces of supply and demand meet. Shocks to either the supply side and/or demand side can cause the market price for a good or service to be re-evaluated.

Investopedia explains 'Market Price'
For example, suppose that the market price for a widget has been $10 for a number of years. Suddenly, the market price shifts to $20 when it is announced that only half of this year's widgets will be sold in stores. In this case, a drop in supply causes the market price to increase.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:23   #264
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Originally Posted by HerrGlock View Post
If PSA, Midway, Walmart etc al have none, they are not the market. They, then, become irrelevant to market price.

Those places and people who actually have product are the market suppliers.
Actually they do have product, the same amount as they always do. It is just sold was quickly as they get it. So they are indeed part of "the market". Walmart is the largest seller of ammo in the US, how can they not be a part of the "market".

The current situation is a function of several factors. Supply..... which is as large as it has ever been (except surplus)... so that is not really the issue.

Demand...
There is normal demand; what people shoot every week.

There is normal stocking demand. The ammo you buy so that you have ammo so you don't have to go buy it each time you go to shoot. So for most people that is a box or two upfront, for others it is a lot more, but the demand is random in time so is fairly smooth so manufacturers would included it as a part of the normal production capacity planning.

There is panic demand. People dramatically increasing the amount of person use ammo because they think they won't get to buy anymore soon. This demand comes on suddenly and in the same time period. This is hard to plan for by the manufactures. It also means they may have less future normal weekly shooting demand, for a while after the panic has passed, or the smooth stocking demand goes away for a while after the panic.

There is speculative demand. This people buying ammo they never intend to shoot, it is to strip the shelves to help create panic so they can profit. They same thing happens in the oil market. People complain about all the time. It not the normal middleman/distributor model that sometimes helps a market. It is destructive the normal and efficient functioning of the market. These are the flippers.

The last two forms of demand are not good for the health of a market.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:30   #265
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
There is speculative demand. This people buying ammo they never intend to shoot, it is to strip the shelves to help create panic so they can profit. They same thing happens in the oil market. People complain about all the time. It not the normal middleman/distributor model that sometimes helps a market. It is destructive the normal and efficient functioning of the market. These are the flippers.

The last two forms of demand are not good for the health of a market.
Why is speculation bad?

When an oil company drills a well...speculation that what they take out is worth more in the future than the risk free value of the money.

When an ammo manufacturer sets up shop, they speculate that they can sell more than their operating costs and depreciation.

When a person goes to a university, they speculate that their value as an employee will be greater with a degree.

When you (as in general public) invests in the stock market (i.e. 401k) you are speculating that what you have invested in will be worth more in the future.

However, as soon as it comes to something you think you (as in the general USA public and possibly your personally from your post) have a right to have cheap and someone else buys it, speculation is "bad"
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:43   #266
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Those who purchase large quantities from WalMart with the intention of reselling it are also part of the market, no more so or less than WalMart. The only difference is in scale.


Speculators, "scalpers" (), whatever you wish to call them..
How is it any less honest or righteous for Joe down the street to buy all the ammo on Walmart's shelves and to then resell it, irrespective of the price?

WalMart may at some point in time purchase all the .22 that Federal has in their warehouse. They then sell it at whatever price they choose..
Is it unfair of WalMart to buy up all of Federal's stock before Academy Sports can get it?
What about CDNN? What about Dick's?
Should WalMart call all these vendors and coordinate their purchase with them?


Where does this notion of "fair" come into the equation?

Who determines the "fairness" threshold?
Is it a constant, or is it at all dependent upon market conditions?
If so, who assesses those conditions and sets the new "fairness" threshold?
Is there any oversight to this process?
To whom do I address any concerns about or objections to the fairness-assessment process?

The free market is never really "fair", it just is what it is.
You're either a participant in that market or you are not.

You assume that WalMart's prices are "fair" because they are the vendor you choose to buy from. What if WalMart decides to sell at half the price tomorrow? Does that mean they are twice as fair as they were previously?

Do you not believe that if WalMart thought they could get 3 times the price for ammo they would not raise their prices to that level?
What if they believed they could sell at ten times the price?
Would WalMart then be 1/10th as "fair"?
Relative to what point in time? Yesterday? 1991?


If the price Joe charges for his WalMart-sourced ammo really bothers you so much, then compete with him in the market for WalMart-sourced ammo and do what you believe to be "fair".
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:32   #267
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I went to my LGS last night and they got in a whole pallet of .40 S&W. The price is actually pretty good. $432 for a case of 1000. I just looked on AlamoAmmo and they have a 50 round box of WWB for $39.95. Do the math on 20 boxes x $39.95. People will buy it and that's fine.
Now, am I going to buy that whole pallet and resell it? No, that's not me. I sold a case of 9mm I had last week at the exact same price I bought it for. I'm no angel or saint but I won't be the devil either and i'm nobody to pass judgement on someone who is reselling it for a profit. To each his/her own.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:06   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
Those who purchase large quantities from WalMart with the intention of reselling it are also part of the market, no more so or less than WalMart. The only difference is in scale.


Speculators, "scalpers" (), whatever you wish to call them..
How is it any less honest or righteous for Joe down the street to buy all the ammo on Walmart's shelves and to then resell it, irrespective of the price?

WalMart may at some point in time purchase all the .22 that Federal has in their warehouse. They then sell it at whatever price they choose..
Is it unfair of WalMart to buy up all of Federal's stock before Academy Sports can get it?
What about CDNN? What about Dick's?
Should WalMart call all these vendors and coordinate their purchase with them?


Where does this notion of "fair" come into the equation?
Who determines the "fairness" threshold?
The free market is never really "fair", it just is what it is.
You're either a participant in that market or you are not.

You assume that WalMart's prices are "fair" because they are the vendor you choose to buy from. What if WalMart decides to sell at half the price tomorrow? Does that mean they are twice as fair as they were previously?

Do you not believe that if WalMart thought they could get 3 times the price for ammo they would not raise their prices to that level?
What if they believed they could sell at ten times the price?
Would WalMart then be 1/10th as "fair"?
Relative to what point in time? Yesterday? 1991?


If the price Joe charges for his WalMart-sourced ammo really bothers you so much, then compete with him in the market for WalMart-sourced ammo and do what you believe to be "fair".
I said nothing about honesty or righteousness. I talked the efficient and effective function of free markets, about concepts about how capitalism is supposed to work. Nothing about right or wrong. You are injecting emotion where there was none.

You might be surprised that Walmart makes commitments to the ammo manufacturers well ahead of time so that they may plan for it. Academy, does the same. With sufficient lead time the manufacturer can supply them both. They may enter into and exclusive arrangement that would affect that for a limited product. A smart manufacturer would not place all of their output to one retailer. It would wipe them out if WalMart dropped them. Also they would get lower margins from Walmart as they would drive them down. So keep a good mix different size buyers. Big ones to get scale, and smaller ones to get profit.

A smart retailer would not have only one supplier for an important product; as if there were a manufacturing problem they would lose sales.

Speculators are not a net positive to the mid to long term health of the industry as they too much volatility of return to the manufacturers without a corresponding increase in return to them.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:14   #269
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I said nothing about honesty or righteousness. ..
And I did not quote your post or cite you...
I was addressing the larger sentiment of the majority posting in this thread.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:35   #270
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Why is speculation bad?

When an oil company drills a well...speculation that what they take out is worth more in the future than the risk free value of the money.

When an ammo manufacturer sets up shop, they speculate that they can sell more than their operating costs and depreciation.

When a person goes to a university, they speculate that their value as an employee will be greater with a degree.

When you (as in general public) invests in the stock market (i.e. 401k) you are speculating that what you have invested in will be worth more in the future.

However, as soon as it comes to something you think you (as in the general USA public and possibly your personally from your post) have a right to have cheap and someone else buys it, speculation is "bad"
The driller is not a speculator in this sense. They are actively producing the product. The "speculator" in the sense used in this context is not actively producing the product. They are not a consumer of the good. They are not really even a distributor of the good. If they were not in the market, the market would more efficiently get the good from the producer to the consumer.

Ticketmaster used to serve a useful function. They provided a service to the consumer. They made it so you did not have to go stand in line at the box office a long way away. They had more convenient locations. Now you can buy the tickets on line from home and print them yourself. The seller (show producer) limits sales to one buyer for a reason. They can make one customer happy and thousands unhappy or make thousands happy. It is a good business decision for them, and does not reduce the likely number of tickets sold.

Speculators are different than Market Makers. Marker Makers improve the orderly function of the market. Speculators do not do that. Usually they cause chaos.

It is not about if it is cheap for me. I have sufficient stock for my needs. It is about what is healthy for the industry. If the manufacturers go belly up, does that help them? Does it help the actual consumers of the product? The speculators do not care. They will move to the next thing.

Not one of you has answered the question of if you think patents are good?

I am not passing judgement on the morality of speculating, I am discussing whether they make a market more efficient, effective, orderly, and healthy to benefit the producers and consumers. Generally, they do not. Specifically in the cited example, they do not.

Last edited by racerford; 03-28-2013 at 12:42.. Reason: added the sentence in the italics
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:37   #271
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Originally Posted by racerford View Post
The driller is not a speculator in this sense. They are actively producing the product. They are not a consumer of the good. They are not really even a distributor of the good. If they were not in the market, the market would more efficiently get the good from the producer to the consumer.

Ticketmaster used to serve a useful function. They provided a service to the consumer. They made it so you did not have to go stand in line at the box office a long way away. They had more convenient locations. Now you can buy the tickets on line from home and print them yourself. The seller (show producer) limits sales to one buyer for a reason. They can make one customer happy and thousands unhappy or make thousands happy. It is a good business decision for them, and does not reduce the likely number of tickets sold.

Speculators are different than Market Makers. Marker Makers improve the orderly function of the market. Speculators do not do that. Usually they cause chaos.

It is not about if it is cheap for me. I have sufficient stock for my needs. It is about what is healthy for the industry. If the manufacturers go belly up, does that help them? Does it help the actual consumers of the product? The speculators do not care. They will move to the next thing.

Not one of you has answered the question of if you think patents are good?

I am not passing judgement on the morality of speculating, I am discussing whether they make a market more efficient, effective, orderly, and healthy to benefit the producers and consumers. Generally, they do not. Specifically in the cited example, they do not.
How is a company drilling an oil well not a speculator?


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Old 03-28-2013, 12:41   #272
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How is a company drilling an oil well not a speculator?


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I will try again adding a missing sentence. I can see why you might be confused.

The driller is not a speculator in this sense. They are actively producing the product. The "speculator" in the sense used in this context is not actively producing the product. They are not a consumer of the good. They are not really even a distributor of the good. If they were not in the market, the market would more efficiently get the good from the producer to the consumer.
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Old 03-28-2013, 13:42   #273
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I will try again adding a missing sentence. I can see why you might be confused.

The driller is not a speculator in this sense. They are actively producing the product. The "speculator" in the sense used in this context is not actively producing the product. They are not a consumer of the good. They are not really even a distributor of the good. If they were not in the market, the market would more efficiently get the good from the producer to the consumer.
You chose to ignore that people who invest in the stock market (e.g. 401k) are speculators.

Typically without speculators to start businesses, there would be no business.

Going back to the ammo argument, why is the market not working when I can pay someone to save me time of not having to go to every walmart to find ammo? Or I can buy concert tickets that I want based upon speculators.
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Old 03-28-2013, 14:42   #274
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
You chose to ignore that people who invest in the stock market (e.g. 401k) are speculators.

Typically without speculators to start businesses, there would be no business.

Going back to the ammo argument, why is the market not working when I can pay someone to save me time of not having to go to every walmart to find ammo? Or I can buy concert tickets that I want based upon speculators.
You still haven't answered the patent question.

The "speculators" that you speak of are not performing the same function as those acting in the ammo market. They investing to produce the product, they key to the market in terms of creating supply. Without those investors there may be no supply. The speculators in this case are not working with the manufacturers to produce more supply. The manufacturers see none of the money. If the speculators in the ammo ceased to exist over night (the angel of death took them in a plague), the ammo market would function normally and more efficiently. If you do not see the difference you are not being honest with yourself. It is a false analogy.

You wouldn't have to go to every WalMart to look for it if they were not buying it up. You are not paying someone for helping save time you are paying them for inconveniencing you. Don't you see if you don't buy it, they don't have a market at the high price and will stop inconveniencing you.

You can spend your money any way you want. I don't care, it doesn't make you a bad person.


I have collected toys, comic books, and other things over several decades. I have watched speculators create severe chaos in every case, damaging the hobby for those that truly enjoy it. In no case did they "help" the hobby.

They did the same thing to the Silver market in the late 70's early 80's.

They did the same thing to the oil market. There is a price based on a rational market at traditional levels of supply and demand. When the market moves contrary to the normal signals it is an indicator of a market that is not functioning rationally. For free markets to functional efficiently and effectively they have to be rational.
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Old 03-28-2013, 14:44   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
And I did not quote your post or cite you...
I was addressing the larger sentiment of the majority posting in this thread.
Sorry, fair enough.

So what is your opinion of patents?
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