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Old 03-28-2013, 21:07   #126
certifiedfunds
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Originally Posted by badge315 View Post
Applying the OP's logic, it would be foolish to hire blacks, since they are much more likely to be involved with the criminal justice system and thus increase absenteeism. Same goes for women; they might get pregnant and be out of work. How about Jews and Muslims, with all their non-"standard" holidays?

Paying somebody to perform a task does not confer upon an employer the power to regulate every aspect of their employees' lives.
Paying someone to perform a task does (should) confer upon an employer the power to regulate whatever they damn well please.

An employer should be able to instruct his employees when to eat, sleep and have sex with their spouses (and in what position). He holds the money and should be free to dispense it on whatever terms he chooses.

The employee is free to walk.
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Old 03-28-2013, 21:09   #127
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Old 03-28-2013, 21:31   #128
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Paying someone to perform a task does (should) confer upon an employer the power to regulate whatever they damn well please.

An employer should be able to instruct his employees when to eat, sleep and have sex with their spouses (and in what position). He holds the money and should be free to dispense it on whatever terms he chooses.

The employee is free to walk.
So do you also believe that bosses can demand sex from their employees as a condition of employment?
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Old 03-28-2013, 21:38   #129
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So do you also believe that bosses can demand sex from their employees as a condition of employment?
I think they should be able to. The law makes that illegal to do so. However I do believe that sex for money should be legal as I am a Freedom loving Libertarian. My belief is that if it is hurting the company and costing the company money if they don't then the company should be free to fire them. However I do think that if it is a condition of employment upon hire, then yes they should. As long as both adults are consenting, then it is OK with me, God, and the gub'mint.
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Old 03-28-2013, 22:19   #130
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So do you also believe that bosses can demand sex from their employees as a condition of employment?
What does the contract say? That's the real answer.

My personal opinion is bosses, maybe, employers? yes, of course. There is a difference between a boss and an employer. What the boss can do is up to his employer.

The employee should be free to decide whether they want to remain employed there under those terms, or seek employment elsewhere. If it is a breach of contract, he/she should sue. If the employer's behavior is detrimental to the health of his company, things will take care of themselves.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 03-28-2013 at 22:23..
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Old 03-28-2013, 22:46   #131
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
Paying someone to perform a task does (should) confer upon an employer the power to regulate whatever they damn well please.

An employer should be able to instruct his employees when to eat, sleep and have sex with their spouses (and in what position). He holds the money and should be free to dispense it on whatever terms he chooses.

The employee is free to walk.
Maybe I just have too much compassion for my fellow man....I don't know.....but from reading this, and responses in the other thread of yours, you and that ChiTown guy are pretty ****ed up individuals.
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Old 03-28-2013, 22:50   #132
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Ust don't get CF started on Social Security. oops
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Old 03-28-2013, 23:07   #133
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Maybe I just have too much compassion for my fellow man....I don't know.....but from reading this, and responses in the other thread of yours, you and that ChiTown guy are pretty ****ed up individuals.
What does compassion have to do with this? What gives you the right to determine what terms of employment someone else can choose to agree to?

If I want to hire an employee under x,y,z terms, and there is an employee needs the job and wants to work under x,y,z terms but you and the government say its illegal, are you being compassionate?

Take child labor. In developing 3rd world countries where poverty is the rule, families occupy themselves simply trying to provide a meal for the day. Kids have no hope for attending school because they must dig through the town dump for anything edible or of value.

Along comes Nike looking to make a profit. They contract with a company which opens a shop making shoes at low prices with child labor. The child makes enough money to help feed his family. Instead of starving, they eat. Perhaps he makes enough that one of his siblings can stop digging through trash long enough to attend school. With a little education in an uneducated populace, he has an advantage and a chance to prosper. Perhaps his kid won't have to work in a sweat shop.

But along comes an American film crew. They shoot candid video produce a documentary condemning Nike. Nike feels the pressure and closes the factory. The kids are out of work. The family starves. The sibling doesn't get to attend school. Their country remains a 3rd world ****hole.

So who was more compassionate? Nike by employing children or the American film crew? The kid was working there because it was his and his family's best option. Out of "compassion" the film crew decided they knew what was best for him, took the paycheck out of his hand and went back to Cambridge feeling smug.

If you believe that employers should not demand sex as a condition of employment, you should start a competing company and implement the policy. If your policy attracts the most valuable employees away from their former employer, you have a competitive advantage. He'll either be forced to change his policy or suffer in the competitive marketplace.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 03-28-2013 at 23:10..
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:18   #134
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You're simply trading the tyranny of government for the tyranny of the wealthy. The kind of mentality that is being endorsed by certifiedfunds and ChiTownPicaro once prevailed in this country...and was directly responsible for the creation of labor unions and labor laws. Fortunately, we, as a society, have chosen to reject that extremist fringe position.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:46   #135
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You're simply trading the tyranny of government for the tyranny of the wealthy. The kind of mentality that is being endorsed by certifiedfunds and ChiTownPicaro once prevailed in this country...and was directly responsible for the creation of labor unions and labor laws. Fortunately, we, as a society, have chosen to reject that extremist fringe position.

Nope...the tyranny of the Federal government is forced on us at gun point. Nobody sticks a gun in your face and makes you work for another man.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:48   #136
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If they are going to insist in getting into your private life then go all the way.
Fire an employee that uses a cell phone while driving.

Definitely fire dopers.

Fire employees that don't eat enough fresh fruit.

Fire employees that drive too old a (unsafe) car.

Fire an employee that doesn't get enough sleep.

Of course fire everyone when they reach the age of 50.

Fire any woman with big boobs and a nice butt. She is a distraction that may get someone hurt while looking at her.


No, I'm really tired of people, government, work, whatever getting into peoples private lives.

As a pilot it was my responsibility to maintain decent enough health to fly but I think such as that is the limit.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:05   #137
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Maybe I just have too much compassion for my fellow man....I don't know.....but from reading this, and responses in the other thread of yours, you and that ChiTown guy are pretty ****ed up individuals.
Is not an employer a "fellow man"?

Would you presume to take from your fellow man the right to run his business as he chooses?

Would you choose to have government force him to operate his business in a manner contrary to what he judges to be in his best interest?

How compassionate is that?

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Old 03-29-2013, 07:04   #138
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Is it compassion, or just class envy?
It's not class envy.

I agree an employer should be able to run his business as he sees fit, but demanding sex because someone is employed by you? And dictating when an employee and his/her spouse can have sex, and what position?

Are you really defending that?

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Old 03-29-2013, 07:17   #139
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It's not class envy.

I agree an employer should be able to run his business as he sees fit, but demanding sex because someone is employed by you? And dictating when an employee and his/her spouse can have sex, and what position?

Are you really defending that?
CF was making a point using an extreme example..

If an employer demanded such things he would not be an employer for long. Responsible adults would refuse to work for them. If they depended on employees to operate their business they would soon be out of business.

I defend the right of a businessman to operate a business according to his own self-interest. If you or I don't want to work for him on his terms then we are free to seek employment elsewhere.


Again, you cite "compassion for my fellow man.."

Is it compassionate to presume to use the force of law to compel the owner of a business to operate in a manner other than what he believes to be in his self-interest?

Do you believe that doing so will benefit those who need employment in the long term?
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Last edited by Atlas; 03-29-2013 at 07:48..
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:42   #140
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ChiTownPicaro, while I agree with your posted position of at-will employment, what's up with the trolling/obvious obfuscation of your beliefs? I've seen your other posts; either you're trying to stir the pot here (trolling) or you're the biggest flip-flopper ever.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:09   #141
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Again, you cite "compassion for my fellow man.."

Is it compassionate to presume to use the force of law to compel the owner of a business to operate in a manner other than what he believes to be in his self-interest?

Do you believe that doing so will benefit those who need employment in the long term?
It is for certain things, like employee safety, but there are laws in place for that.

Personally, I wouldn't fire someone because they walk a little slower than average, or because they get hurt on the job an cant do quite as much anymore. But that's just me.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:16   #142
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It is for certain things, like employee safety, but there are laws in place for that.

No, that isn't compassionate either. What if someone wants to take a job under dangerous conditions? What gives you the right to butt in?

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Personally, I wouldn't fire someone because they walk a little slower than average, or because they get hurt on the job an cant do quite as much anymore. But that's just me.
And that should be your prerogative, running your business with your money. Where you start getting immoral is when you use the force of government to tell another man how he must run his or who he may work for under what conditions.

I noticed you didn't respond to my post about the ethics of child labor. I gather from this that you're in favor of starving children.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 03-29-2013 at 08:20..
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:21   #143
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Should an employer not have the freedom to hire you as a security guard to protect his business interests in a (foreign) war zone?

There are men who would prefer being employed to risk their neck in that way over sitting at a desk on Main Street.

Do you presume to restrict an employer from hiring for that position?
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:41   #144
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If an employer demanded such things he would not be an employer for long. Responsible adults would refuse to work for them. If they depended on employees to operate their business they would soon be out of business.
That's utter BS. Employers used to routinely demand sex from their employees and fired them when they refused to comply. That's why we now have sexual harassment laws.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:43   #145
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That's utter BS. Employers used to routinely demand sex from their employees and fired them when they refused to comply. That's why we now have sexual harassment laws.
They fired them because the employee chose to remain until they could be fired. If an employer demanded that you provide them with sex would you not tell them to piss up a rope and walk away?

I would.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:48   #146
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That's utter BS. Employers used to routinely demand sex from their employees and fired them when they refused to comply. That's why we now have sexual harassment laws.
Sexual harassment laws discriminate against attractive secretaries.

Is that what you want? Who benefits from that?

If I'm a better executive and make more money for the shareholders when I have an attractive secretary servicing me daily in my office, why should that be illegal?

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 03-29-2013 at 08:49..
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:00   #147
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Counting down to someone posting "but, but, but.... it isn't so easy to get a job, especially nowadays..".

When did we as a society become so dependent upon having someone else take care of us?
My father died in 1984... I haven't really wanted another.

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Old 03-29-2013, 09:16   #148
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The lady being told to put out or get out may need the job every bit as badly as the bare foot urchin in SE Asia. But we have laws. Using a position of power to coerce sex is a form of rape. But then the boss should be allowed that, right?

Laws restricting the power of employers came about because of bad employers. That also resulted in unions. Has the pendulum swung to far in the direction of employee protection? Yes, in my opinion. But those that scream about it have to remember it was brought about by the actions of employers who went too far in the other direction.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:19   #149
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The lady being told to put out or get out may need the job every bit as badly as the bare foot urchin in SE Asia. But we have laws. Using a position of power to coerce sex is a form of rape. But then the boss should be allowed that, right?
...

I'll ask you the same question..
If an employer demanded sex as a condition of employment, would you not tell them to go to hell and walk away?

If not then why?
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:57   #150
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... Laws restricting the power of employers came about because of bad employers. That also resulted in unions. Has the pendulum swung to far in the direction of employee protection? Yes, in my opinion. But those that scream about it have to remember it was brought about by the actions of employers who went too far in the other direction.
You just need to move to Florida. In these here parts, you're "allowed" to kill your employees for a maximum liability of150 grand each. So from between 10g's, up to 150g's, you can get a new one.)
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