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Old 03-25-2013, 17:26   #201
ChuteTheMall
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I went to a gun show this weekend (first time in about 6 months) and I saw gun dealers trying to explain how to rack the slides on semiautos, how to swing out the cylinders on revolvers, and give a quick 90 seconds of handgun training to prospective newbie customers who looked like they voted for Obama. Glad these guns were unloaded.
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Old 03-25-2013, 17:55   #202
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Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall View Post
I went to a gun show this weekend (first time in about 6 months) and I saw gun dealers trying to explain how to rack the slides on semiautos, how to swing out the cylinders on revolvers, and give a quick 90 seconds of handgun training to prospective newbie customers who looked like they voted for Obama. Glad these guns were unloaded.
Better be glad you didn't show 'em that big Palin tat on your back.
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Old 03-25-2013, 19:06   #203
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I meant ROs, not RSOs. Must have been a case of the Mondays.


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Old 03-25-2013, 19:46   #204
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Originally Posted by kirbinster View Post
I'm a new gun owner, but I watched about 20 hours of youtube videos on guns and gun saftety before I bought one. Love Hickok45. That said, I sometimes get very nervous at the range with some of the folks that do some very stupid things. NJ is very strict as far as permit requirements - but there is ZERO training requirement - that is not good.
Good for you! Self-discipline is one of the paramount factors when it comes to gun safety. We all have learned the the Four Rules and then practiced, practiced, and practiced them some more; additionally, as an FYI, this site is a fantastic resource, whether or not your decide to come to the "pig nosed" dark side (i.e., own a Glock), for all things gun related, which most certainly includes safety reminders and constant, and oft times humorous reminders of the importance of being a safe gun owner.

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Originally Posted by ChiTownPicaro View Post
So 20 hours of youtube videos makes one qualified and trained? What makes you more trained than someone else? Why shouldn't they be nervous about you?

I have seen the movie Commando a dozen times, The Expendables a dozen times, and I am currently watching a few youtube videos. Does this mean I know gun safety? Or know anything about how to shoot?
20 hours of studying anything related to gun safety, including youtube videos, has him further along than he would be and indicates he especially understands the serious responsibilities of gun ownership as it relates to SD.

Fundamentally speaking, to merely own a gun and keep it unloaded in a drawer doesn't not take as much responsibility as does owning a gun and keeping it at the ready to defend oneself.
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Old 03-25-2013, 20:58   #205
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I would say yea the 20 hours or so is much more training than one would get in a one or two day course. I guess you have not heard you can get a college degree online these days. I have learned all safety issues, learned and applied shooting skills, and can fully take apart my Glock and 1911 and maintain them. So yes I feel I haves learned quite a bit from watching and taking online lessons.

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Old 03-25-2013, 21:15   #206
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A relative of mine just took ccw class. He said people came with zero experience, guns new in box and some didn't speak English. Fun day for the instructor.
A guy I know went to his daughters and her boy friend was using the laser on his 380 like a pointer to play with the dog. Muzzling everything and everyone in sight. He had a long talk with him.
I was training in Jiu Jistsu/MMA, before anyone called it MMA. I liked it better when it was a fringe sport. Im starting to feel that way about shooting. But I know we need the numbers, So I will live with it and educate when I can.
What does not speaking English have to do with our 2nd Amendment rights?
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Old 03-25-2013, 22:09   #207
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Not sure of your position here.

As far as accidents, the NRA is all about training and safety. We write manuals, train instructors, offer courses, encourage gun owners to be safe. I favor all of that, and encourage people to join and to take safety courses. However I do not favor any laws requiring the passing of some test before being allowed a constitutional right.

As to being blamed for what murderers do, that has no relationship to any of us. Holding legal gun owners responsible for what criminals do is just plain wrong. Let's work on keeping robbers, rapists, and murderers in jail. Less repeat offenders will reduce the rate of violent crime dramatically.

As to 10 round magazines, there is no reason to accept such limits. Everytime the anti-gunners ask for "compromise", it is gun owners who are being asked to give up something. It is like we have a pie and they say, "come on, compromise and give me half." And we give them half. The next day they come back and say, "come on, compromise and give me half of what you have left." And so on, they keep asking us to compromise on what we have left. Now is the time to say NO, YOU CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE OF OUR GUN RIGHTS AWAY!

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Agreed. When Reagan shredded the Bill of Rights and stopped me from buying NIB automatic weapons we compromised. Why? What did we gain?

I wait eagerly for the day when I can walk down the street with an HK416 SBR with an M203 loaded and ready to rock and roll. I want to be able to back that up with a Glock 18 and a few hand-grenades as well. When we are truly free is when we should stop fighting.
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Old 03-25-2013, 22:12   #208
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It wasn't until my unstable ex husband left that I got my first gun. I refused to have one around while he was there because he wasn't responsible enough to be trusted with one around me and the kids...at least in my opinion. So for the safety of my home and family, I waited. It was a few years later when I heard my attacker was going before the board that I finally got off my backside and did something to protect us from a threat I knew was meant. As a SINGLE MOM (gasp), I taught my children how to respect guns and the power they had to cause pain and death. As a single mom, I brought up 2 children to respect my chosen form of self-defense / home-defense.

Now, if my ex decides to buy his own, it's nobody's business than his whether he gets training...it only becomes somebody's elses business if he goes out into public and does something stupid with that gun...then it's time for the police to step in and stop him. Hopefully getting him registered as mentally unstable and therefore *unfit* to carry. In my opinion, the remaining parent should be responsible for teaching gun safety to the child(ren). If that doesn't happen, darwin often wins..unfortunately, freewill also means sometimes innocents are affected too.

I still don't want anything in the way of mandatory training...and yes, I want the "nanny state government" to stay out of my business!
Why should the gun'mint get to decide who is unfit and mentally unstable? What makes that doctor right versus the one your husband hires who says he is sane?

Sorry but nobody should lose their 2nd Amendment rights just because someone else says they are crazy.
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Old 03-26-2013, 01:43   #209
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Nevermind. I'm on a roll tonight.

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Old 03-26-2013, 05:44   #210
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I hate to be indelicate, because we're all "2nd Amendment, HELL YEAH!" around here, but is anyone mildly concerned about some of the new gun owners that have zero experience with firearms?

I've talked a bit with some of the guys at my local place of business, and they say they do. My concern is that the new guy is going to come home from work and throw his loaded G26 in his sock drawer when he gets home, without a second thought that his 6 year old will get his hands on it.

Has anyone else had the same thoughts?
Just curious, are you meaning "the new gun owners" panic buying due to current events, or just new gun owners in general?

I've seen some stupid things at gun counters here in Montana. "Aw what are you worried about it's unloaded." As someone sweeps a muzzle across the entire store.

I had a clerk wave a muzzle right across my face before he checked the gun to make sure it was unloaded, I wasn't happy about that and I left shortly after.

I realize people often buy guns and THEN practice and become safer with them, but I wish it was the other way around.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:29   #211
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Originally Posted by ChiTownPicaro View Post
Why should the gun'mint get to decide who is unfit and mentally unstable? What makes that doctor right versus the one your husband hires who says he is sane?

Sorry but nobody should lose their 2nd Amendment rights just because someone else says they are crazy.
It was my choice to not have guns in the house while he lived there. He didn't seem to have the desire either, so I wasn't denying him. I personally believed, because of stories he told and me finding out he was lying, that he was not stable. When he left, he took the kids with him and lied that I didn't want them. He told a friend that he was going to blow up our house when I was there alone so he didn't have to pay support when I got the kids back. He's been married 3 more times since then, one time was to a convicted/registered sex offender.
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:48   #212
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What does not speaking English have to do with our 2nd Amendment rights?
Probably makes it harder for the instructor to teach with the language barrier. I didn't see anywhere in that post where he said they shouldn't have the gun because they couldn't speak English.
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Old 03-26-2013, 09:52   #213
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[quote=PhotoFeller;20118962][quote=countrygun;20118886]
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I don't have facts, figures or data of any description to support my concern that unqualified gun owners pose a risk to public safety. My claim of need for competency verification stems from very extensive discussions in the C1 vs.C3 debate wherein the need for training was a point of universal agreement, and from my observations plus comments of others that public ranges are dangerous because of careless gun handling.

Inasmuch as I always ask for facts to support important arguments, your query substantially nails me to the wall. I can't cite ND rates or set forth specific evidence that says untrained people carrying guns in public are dangerous. If we can't agree that the need for proof of competence is intuitively obvious, I am done.
This is my post about halfway through this thread where I ran up the white flag for lack of a compelling argument by saying "I am done". That didn't stop folks from using my prior posts as excuses to show off their presumed knowledge of the founding documents and trying to celebrate my flawed arguments.

I just want the record to be clear that I capitulated at post #148, and subsequent posts, including the "primate" allegory, were defensive in nature. I tend to resist bulldozing, which is a common practice here.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:06   #214
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Yes, I am concerned about some new gun owners. There is a flood of them right now. I can hardly get to the range to shoot anymore and add the ammo shortage to it?
Just kidding. I am concerned but the best I can do right now is help to educate. I am not a certified instructor but last weekend I saw a woman shooting a S&W M&P. Her grip was totally wrong and she was headed for a nasty slide bite. I respectfully stepped in and asked her if she would like some help. Turns out she did. This wasn't the first case. I've helped newbies when their weapons jammed because of limp wristing. Taught them proper grip and all was well.
Help the new shooters become good shooters.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:23   #215
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Ad hominems instead of reason.

I read your "primate post" as well, but I decided not to respond. So in closing, I state categorically that you have the right to be butt-hurt on line as well as to have an unreasonable phobia about regular Joe & Josephine American carrying firearms.
I don't mind push-backs at all as long as you don't try to belittle me in the process with your righteous attitude.

I'm willing to swap points and counter points with you, Country or anybody else, any time. However, if I concede on a point or an argument, I expect the debate with me to stop. I also welcome being corrected or educated as long as the tutoring isn't done in a condescending way. If I admit that I have limited knowledge about a topic, reflect that admission in the tenor of your statements.

You've been around for a long time, but you're tenure means nothing to me. Treat me like a gentleman and you will be rewarded in kind.

As far as Joe and Josephine are concerned, they are entitled to hear someone's opinion besides yours. Get used to it.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-26-2013 at 10:26..
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:44   #216
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I don't mind push-backs at all as long as you don't try to belittle me in the process with your righteous attitude.
You mean like your monkey feces rebuttal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I'm willing to swap points and counter points with you, Country or anybody else, any time. However, if I concede on a point or an argument, I expect the debate with me to stop. I also welcome being corrected or educated as long as the tutoring isn't done in a condescending way. If I admit that I have limited knowledge about a topic, reflect that admission in the tenor of your statements.
Your posts do not reflect that at all. You admit you have no facts to back up your assertions but you continue with
Quote:
If we can't agree that the need for proof of competence is intuitively obvious, I am done.
That reads IMHO, "I don't have any proof. I shouldn't need any proof to prove I'm right" Not that you have been educated and corrected.


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You've been around for a long time, but you're tenure means nothing to me. Treat me like a gentleman and you will be rewarded in kind.

As far as Joe and Josephine are concerned, they are entitled to hear someone's opinion besides yours. Get used to it.
You want respect, but you don't give it. It works both ways...
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:06   #217
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I think the interests of the public require that a CCW holder demonstrate safety and the ability to shoot a reasonable course of fire.

However, my suggestion was that manufactures include vouchers for a NRA safety course with firearm purchases. If the consumer doesn't want to go, they don't have to redeem the voucher (just like they don't have to join the NRA when that free membership is included in the purchase).

If a manufacture doesn't want to be part of this, that's their choice as well.

This provides a private sector solution to many of the OPs concerns, without involving the government.
Wonderful, but it doesn't mean people will take the training. A private sector solution is great, but people will not take it. And it seems silly to expect corporations to cut into their profits in order to assuage the fears of anti-gun hoplophobes. Do you think auto companies should give out free driving lessons? Should book publishers start giving out free reading lessons?

Sorry but it should not be on the manufacturers to ensure people use their products safely. They can but I don't think it should be forced, though you never said they should be forced. Either way as a shareholder I would be upset if they started spending money that could go to profits to assuage the fears of ignorant hoplophobes and anti-gun people.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:15   #218
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It was my choice to not have guns in the house while he lived there. He didn't seem to have the desire either, so I wasn't denying him. I personally believed, because of stories he told and me finding out he was lying, that he was not stable. When he left, he took the kids with him and lied that I didn't want them. He told a friend that he was going to blow up our house when I was there alone so he didn't have to pay support when I got the kids back. He's been married 3 more times since then, one time was to a convicted/registered sex offender.
But you never explained what gives the gub'mint the right to determine who is and who isn't crazy? And which doctor is right and which one is misdiagnosing him?
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:16   #219
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Probably makes it harder for the instructor to teach with the language barrier. I didn't see anywhere in that post where he said they shouldn't have the gun because they couldn't speak English.
True. But I see it is irrelevant. I know that in the parts of Texas where most of my family lives, they are heavily armed and speak almost no English.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:18   #220
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Good for you! Self-discipline is one of the paramount factors when it comes to gun safety. We all have learned the the Four Rules and then practiced, practiced, and practiced them some more; additionally, as an FYI, this site is a fantastic resource, whether or not your decide to come to the "pig nosed" dark side (i.e., own a Glock), for all things gun related, which most certainly includes safety reminders and constant, and oft times humorous reminders of the importance of being a safe gun owner.

Welcome to GT.

20 hours of studying anything related to gun safety, including youtube videos, has him further along than he would be and indicates he especially understands the serious responsibilities of gun ownership as it relates to SD.

Fundamentally speaking, to merely own a gun and keep it unloaded in a drawer doesn't not take as much responsibility as does owning a gun and keeping it at the ready to defend oneself.
So watching internet videos makes one knowledgeable and an expert? Neat. So how do we know all these new gun owners are not going home and watching Youtube videos to become experts? I mean if that is all that it takes.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:21   #221
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So watching internet videos makes one knowledgeable and an expert? Neat. So how do we know all these new gun owners are not going home and watching Youtube videos to become experts? I mean if that is all that it takes.
You sure do throw we around a lot...
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Old 03-26-2013, 13:04   #222
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Well, first post I've made here (might look like I'm a new gun owner - and I am, but I've grown up around guns my whole life and been lurking here for a while now).

Two things really scare me:
1) People are buying up guns just because of the current political climate (not necessarily because they have made the choice that they would like one for any reason other than that).
and 2) It has been extremely difficult to actually find ammo to practice with. So now we have a ton of new gun owners, who cannot afford or find ammo to practice but will still continue to carry and handle firearms with a much lesser understanding of how dangerous they can really be. In other words, the learning curve has gotten longer. I did not start carrying my G19 (got it right before all of this nonsense) until I knew a lot about how it works, how to properly conceal, and how to shoot it effectively after taking classes on stress shooting.

Over half of the people I see at the range now look extremely inexperienced, but even worse, they do not seem interested in learning and improving their understanding and effectiveness with a firearm.
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Old 03-26-2013, 13:30   #223
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You mean like your monkey feces rebuttal?



Your posts do not reflect that at all. You admit you have no facts to back up your assertions but you continue with

That reads IMHO, "I don't have any proof. I shouldn't need any proof to prove I'm right" Not that you have been educated and corrected.

You want respect, but you don't give it. It works both ways...
Your reading of my 'white flag' post is what you have chosen to make it. In at least one subsequent post I admitted again that I couldn't make a case for a competency test, that it isn't easy to do, and thats the way it should be. Ou have a bad case of selective memory. Read my posts again with an honest fairness gauge and you'll see that I am respectful to a fault

I urge you to look for disrespect in any of my posts over several years. You won't find it unless someone has insulted me when such treatment was unwarranted. On he other hand, I won't be intimidated by yapping from you or anyone else.

I don't need your blessing to participate here. I'm not willing to "stay home" as peace warrior suggested. I will continue to think freely and speak openly with certainty that a few do not control all that happens here.
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Old 03-26-2013, 14:34   #224
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My husband and I are new gun owners and in Ohio you have to take a 12 hr class for ccw. However from the feedback from friends it doesn't tell you much about how to fix problems when your gun jams, or lodges a live load in the chamber. I want a class to show/teach me things of the what if these things happen. I know youtube and friends can help us but I don't want to be in another situation where I have no clue what to do and feel absolutely helpless.
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Old 03-26-2013, 14:42   #225
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My husband and I are new gun owners and in Ohio you have to take a 12 hr class for ccw. However from the feedback from friends it doesn't tell you much about how to fix problems when your gun jams, or lodges a live load in the chamber. I want a class to show/teach me things of the what if these things happen. I know youtube and friends can help us but I don't want to be in another situation where I have no clue what to do and feel absolutely helpless.
http://www.ohiogunclass.com/
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