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Old 03-24-2013, 13:22   #151
PhotoFeller
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I am sensing that you have a bigger problem with out Constitution that with just the Second Amendment and the free exercise there of.
Your senses are off the mark today. I have no problem whatsoever with the Constitution. Implying that I believe it may be flawed is silly, at best. I respect it to the point that I won't even use its acronym, as so many do. Let me say again, I am not an expert in the document's content or interpretations of it.

I said our rights were "identified in and memorialized by our forefathers in the Constitution". Do you take issue with that statement? Should I be saying "God inscribed our rights on stone tablets which were given to our forefathers for incorporation into the Constitution"?

Sorry, I don't get your point about the Magna Carta.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-24-2013 at 13:34..
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Old 03-24-2013, 13:23   #152
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[QUOTE=PhotoFeller;20118962 If we can't agree that the need for proof of competence is intuitively obvious, I am done.[/QUOTE]

We probably can't agree that mandating, by government regulation, is the answer to every problem on earth and will remove all risks from life.

so.



Well,......Bye
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Old 03-24-2013, 13:37   #153
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Concerned as well

If I get swept one more time at a gun shop I'm gonna snap. I'm all for an armed America, but there are legions of dim wits with zero training arming up. This scares me, but I don't have the answer.
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Old 03-24-2013, 13:44   #154
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If I get swept one more time at a gun shop I'm gonna snap. I'm all for an armed America, but there are legions of dim wits with zero training arming up. This scares me, but I don't have the answer.
There aren't always "answers" no matter how smart we think we are as a species. A lot of detrimental things are enacted because our egos tell us "we can make life safer" with more rules.
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Old 03-24-2013, 14:00   #155
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I'm worried too. So many accidental shootings around here lately. Someone just shot themselves in the hand while upholstering and another while they were cleaning. Pulled the trigger cause they thought it was empty... With their other hand over the barrel.


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Humans make errors all the time. Glocks seem to have a lot of people who have accidents with them...even leo. New gun owners are pretty good if they are older and have read the manuals. Most accidents that I have seen are either shooting at unsafe backstops or just pulling the trigger oin a gun handed to the person. It even happens to seasoned shooters and if more people are shooters then there will be more accidents.
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Old 03-24-2013, 14:31   #156
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We probably can't agree that mandating, by government regulation, is the answer to every problem on earth and will remove all risks from life.

so.

Well,......Bye
Use whatever words you like, but you've badly mischaracterized a solution I offered for discussion concerning people who CC without sufficient training or experience to be considered safe, based on a reasonable standard.

I took a position without having concrete facts, like ND data, or a legitemate study, or anything but informal observations to go on. So, the debate was based on an appeal to common sense versus the position that a right can't be obstructed even if public safety may be threatened. Without substantive evidence, its difficult to argue (and it should be) for any new restrictions.

You probably don't understand this, Cowboy, but people with integrity are usually inclined to be magnanimous when a person on the other side openly concedes an important point.

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Old 03-24-2013, 15:07   #157
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Use whatever words you like, but you've badly mischaracterized a solution I offered for discussion concerning people who CC without sufficient training or experience to be considered safe, based on a reasonable standard.

I took a position without having concrete facts, like ND data, or a legitemate study, or anything but informal observations to go on. So, the debate was based on an appeal to common sense versus the position that a right can't be challenged even if public safety may be threatened. Without substantive evidence, its difficult to argue (and it should be) for any new restrictions.

You probably don't understand this, Cowboy, but people with integrity are usually inclined to be magnanimous when a person on the other side openly concedes an important point.
People who appeal to "common sense" are highly suspect in my book and especially on this topic. One can say a lot of things about guns, (30 rd mags, .50 cal rifles) and justify them with "common sense".

I can remember a time in this a time in this Country, before "shall issue" when people were heard to say 'Well, common sense says, that, since a civilian can't legally carry, those 2" .38s are nothing but tools of crime and are Saturday Night Specials"

Joe Biden's "Common Sense" tells him all you need is a double barreled shotgun that you fire through the door or in the air.

The common sense in New York says you only need so many rounds in you magazine, so many ounces of soda in a drink etc.

Oh I admit you conceded the point that it lacks a factual basis but the "Common sense" card doesn't play much better.

as to the statement

"Sorry, I don't get your point about the Magna Carta. "

In discussing our rights, it might do you well to become familiar with that document as n influence on the COTUS if you are going to discuss the roots or source of our rights and the history of their alliteration.

"To say our basic rights are God given rather than 'established' in our founding documents is a legal device used to protect the inalienability of our founding principles, in my humble opinion.

"

It was a "Legal device" used by THE FRAMERS of the document, ergo the rational for the document. and yes it protects those right better than saying "We were sitting around in a tavern here in the colonies and decided we would come up with a set of rules"

". I respect it to the point that I won't even use its acronym, as so many do. Let me say again, I am not an expert in the document's content or interpretations of it."



Kudos to you for admitting that you are not a Constitutional scholar, but I would suggest you become more familiar with the grand document.
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Old 03-24-2013, 15:46   #158
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People who appeal to "common sense" are highly suspect in my book and especially on this topic. One can say a lot of things about guns, (30 rd mags, .50 cal rifles) and justify them with "common sense".

I can remember a time in this a time in this Country, before "shall issue" when people were heard to say 'Well, common sense says, that, since a civilian can't legally carry, those 2" .38s are nothing but tools of crime and are Saturday Night Specials"

Joe Biden's "Common Sense" tells him all you need is a double barreled shotgun that you fire through the door or in the air.

The common sense in New York says you only need so many rounds in you magazine, so many ounces of soda in a drink etc.

Oh I admit you conceded the point that it lacks a factual basis but the "Common sense" card doesn't play much better.

as to the statement

"Sorry, I don't get your point about the Magna Carta. "

In discussing our rights, it might do you well to become familiar with that document as n influence on the COTUS if you are going to discuss the roots or source of our rights and the history of their alliteration.

"To say our basic rights are God given rather than 'established' in our founding documents is a legal device used to protect the inalienability of our founding principles, in my humble opinion.

"

It was a "Legal device" used by THE FRAMERS of the document, ergo the rational for the document. and yes it protects those right better than saying "We were sitting around in a tavern here in the colonies and decided we would come up with a set of rules"

". I respect it to the point that I won't even use its acronym, as so many do. Let me say again, I am not an expert in the document's content or interpretations of it."



Kudos to you for admitting that you are not a Constitutional scholar, but I would suggest you become more familiar with the grand document.


Lets see, common sense means: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts. [Merriam-Webster]

Why in the world would you be distrustful of folks who practice application of common sense in the context of a discussion like this thread? I readily admitted that I didn't have substantive facts to support a competence examination for CC. This isn't an argument before the Supreme Court. Our little chat counts for...well...nothing!

So, now I'm comparable to Joe Biden? And Bloomberg? (Dont forget Piers Morgan.) Furthermore, hooligans like me argue that mag capacity should be limited to X rounds, and push for the AWB, I suppose, as well as background checks. Such sweeping generalizations usually don't warrant serious consideration, and your's is no exception.

Since I fail to consider the nexus between the Constitution and the Magna Carta, my simple statements about the Constitution are somehow improper or incorrect? I'll need a little help with that, too.

Dang, I didn't get anything right!

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Old 03-24-2013, 16:37   #159
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As I understand your point, a right granted by [memorialized in] the Constitution cannot be interfered with in any way even though the associated behavior of an individual may pose a risk to public safety. Even if that interpretation is well established in case law, it doesn't make sense to me.

I am not a lawyer, nor am I an authority on the Constitution. Delving into this area is beyond the scope of my knowledge, but it does seem that:

1. We have the right to speak freely, yet we cannot shout "FIRE" in a theatre or joke about bombs on a commercial flight preparing to take off.

2. Citizens have the right to gather in their homes or in public places, but such right does not include the ability to engage in behavior that might be detrimental to public safety or interfere with the free movement of others in the community. To stage a demonstration requires a permit in many places, for example.

What I'm trying to say so awkwardly is there does seem to be a test of reasonableness under the law regarding whether or not pursuit of a free act may cause harm to others or otherwise negatively affect the general citizenry.

If someone carries a concealed, deadly weapon in public without proper training in its safe operation, that strikes me as being detrimental to public safety. Does the Constitutional right of any person carrying a firearm supersede the right of other citizens to live without being endangered? I ask because I don't know.
You can actually yell fire in a crowded theater. But if your action causes harm to others then some sort of charges might be brought against you.

Similar would be allowing you to carry a gun into a crowded theater, but if you shot your gun and caused harm then charges could be brought against you.

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Old 03-24-2013, 16:55   #160
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I don't think the problem is that we can't regulate it. We shouldn't regulate it.

But we need to honestly address it, as gun owners, before non gun owners do.

Whether we like it or not all too often others frame the argument and the potential solutions regarding gun laws, especially when we do not participate proactively.
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Old 03-24-2013, 17:03   #161
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Lets see, common sense means: sound and prudent judgment based on a simple perception of the situation or facts. [Merriam-Webster]

Why in the world would you be distrustful of folks who practice application of common sense in the context of a discussion like this thread? I readily admitted that I didn't have substantive facts to support a competence examination for CC. This isn't an argument before the Supreme Court. Our little chat counts for...well...nothing! Well, I guess you might be lookin' for bragging rights. If thats the case, be my guest!

So, now I'm comparable to Joe Biden? And Bloomberg? (Dont forget Piers Morgan.) Furthermore, hooligans like me argue that mag capacity should be limited to X rounds, and push for the AWB, I suppose, as well as background checks. Such sweeping generalizations usually don't warrant serious consideration, and your's is no exception.


You walk like a duck and you certainly quack like one. You use the same phrase "common sense" that they do, yet you seem to be offended by the comparison. It should, if you are alert, indicate to you how that term is misused by our malefactors and therefore engenders suspicion.

Since I fail to consider the nexus between the Constitution and the Magna Carta, my simple statements about the Constitution are somehow improper or incorrect? I'll need a little help with that, too.

Your "Simple statement" was an implication that the rights enumerated in the Constitution were somehow being enumerated for the first time. You further implied, that without the Constitution they would exist only as legends. Many of them were "documented" if you will, before the US Constitution.

Your presentation is a piece of work, Mr. Cowboy. Glad I was able to make your day.

You have admitted to stepping beyond the empirically verifiable and into the realm of what you call "common sense" but it appears to be more like your "feelings" you are projecting and labeling them "common sense". The 'common sense" of others says that what you have suggested is unworkable on a practical as well as a rights-based level.

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Old 03-24-2013, 17:43   #162
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I'm not a stranger to gun safety, but I am new to handguns and handgun safety. I have been to an inside range once. I saw bullets holes everywhere. I thought to myself, self, don't come back here. My sister has 500 acres and I go there to shoot.
Upon my purchase and still today I'm reading about handguns. I wouldn't be concerned too much, a lot of newbies take this serious.

This site provides alot of good information.
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Old 03-24-2013, 17:46   #163
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You old farts need to start worrying about yourselves...and less about the scary new generation that will end the world as we know it.

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Old 03-24-2013, 18:12   #164
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You have admitted to stepping beyond the empirically verifiable and into the realm of what you call "common sense" but it appears to be more like your "feelings" you are projecting and labeling them "common sense". The 'common sense" of others says that what you have suggested is unworkable on a practical as well as a rights-based level.
I honestly didn't know that "common sense" is a term reserved for the anti-gun community. Where in the world have I been? No wonder my intentions are 'suspicious'. Bet the NRA black coat guys are already on my trail.

I think the Constitution is THE document that counts for setting forth the rights of our citizens. Regardless of their philosophical roots, the rights enumerated in the Constitution, as specified and adopted by the founders, are the words that count today. What pre-Constitution sources are referred to in today's legal proceedings where arguments center on fundamental rights?

Without the language set forth in our Constitution, what would our guiding principles be? Can you say what our rights would be or what our relationship with government would be if the Constitution didn't exist? What difference does the Magna Carta make today other than understanding where some of our philosophical notions of liberty and governance originated? (Frankly, I haven't thought about the Magna Carta since junior high school.)

Yep, I admitted the flaws of my argument. However, if we only dealt with "empirically verifiable" arguments here at GT, you and many others who thrive on personal opinions would have no dog to hunt in most debates. Its good to know that you are suddenly a champion for facts, statistics and verifiable information; maintaining intellectual honesty here at GT will require holding you to this position.

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Old 03-24-2013, 18:18   #165
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Yup. Oughta be a law, I tell ya. I also wish there was some way somehow someone could check the background of new gun purchasers.....even making it mandatory.


Congratulations, now you know where all the libtard gun control law ideas come from.
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Old 03-24-2013, 18:28   #166
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Yup. Oughta be a law, I tell ya. I also wish there was some way somehow someone could check the background of new gun purchasers.....even making it mandatory.


Congratulations, now you know where all the libtard gun control law ideas come from.
The heart of the whole thing.

"Common sense" "with good intentions" "It's for the children"

soon become

"Everybody agrees. You are stupid and want children to die if you don't agree"
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Old 03-24-2013, 18:31   #167
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Yup. Oughta be a law, I tell ya. I also wish there was some way somehow someone could check the background of new gun purchasers.....even making it mandatory.


Congratulations, now you know where all the libtard gun control law ideas come from.
Lololol


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Old 03-24-2013, 19:35   #168
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I am worried about all the new people posting on forums and facebook. They say such stupid things, there should be a test or a permit before they express their first amendment rights.
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Old 03-24-2013, 21:58   #169
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I do my shooting on private property. However I have visited 2 indoor ranges in my area. 1 place a good supply of all guns for sale, a little high but not bad. I was there looking for reloading stuff. I spotted primers behind the counter and stood there waiting my turn while they rented guns and lanes to people. These people renting had no clue what that wanted or anything. The counter guys would look at them and ask a couple questions, the people would just shrug their shoulders. The counter guy would just reach in and hand them anything, send them on their way with NO instructions. Talk about getting sweeped, these folks were clueless. I LEFT. I work in the area and stopped one more time when things should have been slower....wrong and it was the same thing happening all over again. I'm not going back. Found a place with powder and primers elsewhere. An additional hour drive each direction but well worth it.
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Old 03-25-2013, 00:37   #170
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I have been to an inside range once. I saw bullets holes everywhere. I thought to myself, self, don't come back here.
I especially enjoy the bullet holes in the ceiling 1ft beyond the firing line. I'm guessing that's someone firing a gun, it kicks up, they flinch and fire again.

As disconcerting as that is though I've never heard of someone being accidentally shot here. I'm sure it must have happened, but it's pretty rare.

...found a newspaper article about this happening in 1997. Women shot her friend with almost the exact scenario I described above.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:53   #171
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The heart of the whole thing.

"Common sense" "with good intentions" "It's for the children"

soon become

"Everybody agrees. You are stupid and want children to die if you don't agree"
And jpa says: "Yup. Oughta be a law, I tell ya. I also wish there was some way somehow someone could check the background of new gun purchasers.....even making it mandatory.

Congratulations, now you know where all the libtard gun control law ideas come from."

Who knew??

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Old 03-25-2013, 05:48   #172
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Yes, but it's their responsibility to get training and guidance.

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Not only that but if they're that stupid to begin with, it's only a matter of time before they screwed up in some other way. You can't protect everyone from themselves.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:31   #173
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Read my last comment and then figure out that as parents (or grandparents) it is up to the family of the children to make the decisions regarding training their children...and then worry about your own home decisions and let the rest of us worry about our own. I get really tired of people who seem to think they know how to raise my children better than I do. Mine survived their childhood it seems maybe I didn't do so bad in how I chose to teach them.
LadyGlock, and others who do not secure firearms in the home,

With great respect for your right to live as you like and raise your children as you like, I urge you to consider the following.

As was stated, children are not little adults. Their brains are, literally, not fully formed, yet, especially their frontal lobes. This is the part of the brain that dictates impulse control, affects decision making, and governs cost-benefit analysis. Children, by definition, physically, cannot be expected to make the correct decision with enough predictability to allow them to do so on their own.

There is a reason we don't give children cars to drive, even though I have seen plenty of kids operate cars and motorcycles on the track with plenty of physical skill. There is a reason we don't let kids sign contracts and legal documents, even though many of them can read and write at very high levels of comprehension. There's a reason we protect kids from sex, even though, by 13, they have both the equipment and the desire up and running. We don't let them vote, or smoke, or marry. In all these cases, we recognize that the kids do not have the maturity to make the right choice reliably, so we make it for them.

Your little ones may know the rules of gun safety. They may love and respect you. They may promise up and down that they will never... whatever (touch a gun when you're not around, etc., whatever your rules are). When they make the promise, they completely mean it. But, when you are not around, they will have the idea - "Hey, let's go check out the gun (or eat the cookie, or go to a prohibited internet site, or any number of things kids do when we're not around)." And, their incompletely formed brains, lacking the ability to counter their impulse, will neglect to stop them from doing something stupid.

It might not happen to you. But, there's a reason children are children. It's because, on a long-term, statistical basis, children cannot reliably make proper decisions.

Again, I'm all for people making their own choices on child rearing. But, I have enough anecdotal evidence of children making horribly poor decisions, despite seemingly full-proof training, that I feel compelled to say something when I hear someone say, "It won't happen in my house."
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:54   #174
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People who seek training of their own volition benefit from it much more than people who take a one day course to meet some regulatory requirement, and it is easy to understand why. A one day, or even a one week, class does not build sufficient muscle memory or create enough neuro-muscular programming to make anybody significantly skilled or any safer for any period of time. What is accomplished in a short course is things are taught which, IF PRACTICED AND REHEARSED ON AN ONGOING BASIS, will lead to safer and better gun handling skills. People who take a class simply to meet a regulatory requirement tend to do the minimum that is required.

As an NRA Instructor and Training Counselor, we try very hard to make our courses fun and provide information about how to pursue other shooting opportunities so that folks will incorporate rehearsals of good gun handling habits into their lives. Shooting and safe handling skills take time to develop, and the level of skill required to defend oneself our Liberty takes quite a bit of dedication. Practicing marksmanship is not getting any cheaper, either. Buying a gun does not render a person armed. Being able to hit what one needs to hit given the time constraints and other field conditions one finds himself in makes a person armed.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:55   #175
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How did I get on the Brady website ???
My Lord, the nannys.
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