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Old 03-23-2013, 11:42   #101
jame
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I understand the camel's nose concern.

My concern is that the clueless, careless shooters we see at the range, some of whom are new CC license holders, leave there and head for home, church, WalMart and other public destinations where there are no range officers. They're a danger to the public. Furthermore, many folks here advise these newcomers to carry 'combat ready' regardless of competency.

It just doesn't feel right to ignore the risk of harm from friendly fire while we refuse to ignore the comparable risk of criminal attack.
I'm not as concerned about friendly fire as I am about basic firearms safety. The thought of a "combat ready" handgun on a kitchen counter while a 4 year old rambles about the house just gives me the willy's.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:43   #102
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I'm not as concerned about friendly fire as I am about basic firearms safety. The thought of a "combat ready" handgun on a kitchen counter while a 4 year old rambles about the house just gives me the willy's.
what's funny, is when i said this, i was labeled a fudd and an anti.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:53   #103
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.....My concern is that the new guy is going to come home from work and throw his loaded G26 in his sock drawer when he gets home, without a second thought that his 6 year old will get his hands on it.

Has anyone else had the same thoughts?
I'm the OP, and this is in my original post. I've been round about accused of the same thing, but I don't give two rips about that.

Learning very basic gun handling rules, at least in the home, should not be learned at the deadly expense of others.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:56   #104
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Originally Posted by jame View Post
I'm the OP, and this is in my original post. I've been round about accused of the same thing, but I don't give two rips about that.

Learning very basic gun handling rules, at least in the home, should not be learned at the deadly expense of others.
a*******men, my friend. i agree. had a newb with a tokarev n.d. one in the lane next to me last year. scared the living **** out of him, me, and the range officer. but by the grace of god, no one was hurt.

but i shouldn't be concerened when i'm in an e.r. having a bullet pulled out of my kidney, because of some randome****head's right to own it with no clue how to safely use it.

uh huh.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:48   #105
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I understand the camel's nose concern.

My concern is that the clueless, careless shooters we see at the range, some of whom are new CC license holders, leave there and head for home, church, WalMart and other public destinations where there are no range officers. They're a danger to the public. Furthermore, many folks here advise these newcomers to carry 'combat ready' regardless of competency.

It just doesn't feel right to ignore the risk of harm from friendly fire while we refuse to ignore the comparable risk of criminal attack.
I understand your concerns and share them BUT I think you are dealing with an unsolvable problem. There is no way that mandatory training will work or be possible or accepted. It would definitely violate our rights and is unacceptable. It is just one of those things, that you can only change in your immediate sphere of influence by educating, teaching and coaching and encouraging others to do the same.

Life has it's risks and many things people do can cause themselves or others harm. I worry about those rushing out to buy their first gun now but what if there was a worry about criminalizing propane tanks or 5-gallon gas cans?

Suppose there was a movement to limit all future vehicles to a top speed of 60MPH and people were rushing to buy "pre-ban" cars without having any training in "high speed driving"?

Mandatory ANYTHING is generally a slippery slope, this is one time we should just stay away from the edge.
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Old 03-23-2013, 13:04   #106
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I think this is a very good topic and I also think that it is time for us to discuss this issue. There is not a more staunch advocate of 2A anywhere but I have been having some issues lately and I'm glad for the opportunity to air some of them out here.

I know a lot of people that carry guns on a daily basis. Most of them are sensible, law abiding, well adjusted, mature adults They know how to handle their guns and have a vast body of experience/training. But I also know some that carry a gun for the wrong reason. Some carry to feel tough. They often drop little hints that they are armed and nobody better mess with them, etc. It's a macho thing. Some men feel inadequate and carrying a gun helps them to feel better about themselves. I know some who openly say they would like to have an excuse to shoot someone.

To me the scariest of all is the guy that has never fired a gun in his life or maybe a time or two with grandpa's old single-shot .22 when he was a kid, that gets a new hand gun and starts carrying it before he fires it one time, gets one bit of instruction, or takes the time to learn anything at all about it. Some have the mistaken impression that just having a gun is the answer and that it guarantees your survival in a SHTF situation. When the truth is that it is only meant to give you a fighting chance IF you have prepared yourself in it's use. If not it will likely insure your defeat. I don't believe anyone should carry a gun until/unless they know it backwards, forwards, upside down, inside out, and butt to muzzle. Before you carry any gun you should be familiar with it's weight (loaded unloaded) it's balance, recoil, noise and all it's controls. You should have trained to the point where muscle memory comes into play. You should be well aware of it's limitations and your own. The more of these things you accomplish the better your chances of coming out on top and every one of those things you do NOT have going on will diminish your chances exponentially.

I know that it is not realistic to expect that people will do this but I constantly find myself talking with some of my shootin' buddies about it. I agree the education is the answer. Take away the mystery of guns to children and TEACH them what they are capable of learning as they grow.

I am uncomfortable with some of this and I believe that a lot of us are but are reluctant to say anything out loud for fear of being flamed as anti 2A. I have been in the past but this thread is where I "come out". I don't believe it is necessarily wrong to require that a person pass a mental competence review and demonstrate that they can safely, and proficiently handle a hand gun, and that they have a good working knowledge of the laws of their state.

There! I said it. I feel all better now....
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Old 03-23-2013, 13:07   #107
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Originally Posted by jame View Post
I'm the OP, and this is in my original post. I've been round about accused of the same thing, but I don't give two rips about that.

Learning very basic gun handling rules, at least in the home, should not be learned at the deadly expense of others.
1) Gun ownership is at an all time high while gun deaths from accidents is at an all time low. This is a easily verifyable fact and suggests that perhaps your concern is not as quite as well founded as you fear.

2) If somebody is so careless as to leaved thier firearms comepletly unsecured around their kids than chances are extremely high that the firearm is far from the biggest threat to that child's safety.


I am a strong advocate of training but definitely not of any state mandates on it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 13:15   #108
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I understand the camel's nose concern.

My concern is that the clueless, careless shooters we see at the range, some of whom are new CC license holders, leave there and head for home, church, WalMart and other public destinations where there are no range officers. They're a danger to the public. Furthermore, many folks here advise these newcomers to carry 'combat ready' regardless of competency.

It just doesn't feel right to ignore the risk of harm from friendly fire while we refuse to ignore the comparable risk of criminal attack.
So what is your suggestion? Required training? Government intervention? If so, you don't belong here, you need to get an account at DU. We don't need more laws and restrictions...any TRUE gun advocate would run from those kind of suggestions!
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Old 03-23-2013, 13:19   #109
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I'm not as concerned about friendly fire as I am about basic firearms safety. The thought of a "combat ready" handgun on a kitchen counter while a 4 year old rambles about the house just gives me the willy's.
My son, at 4 years old, knew better than to touch. I never put them up, I never left them unloaded. He is awesome at gun safety. Teach them while they are young and they will grow up with respect for the firearm.
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Old 03-23-2013, 13:28   #110
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I don't believe it is necessarily wrong to require that a person pass a mental competence review and demonstrate that they can safely, and proficiently handle a hand gun, and that they have a good working knowledge of the laws of their state.

There! I said it. I feel all better now....
Do you feel the same way about every other item commonly used as a deadly weapon and/or every other item with the potential to be used as a deadly weapon? Like knives, automobiles, a gallon of gas, ball bats, etc?

Just curious.............
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Old 03-23-2013, 14:30   #111
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So what is your suggestion? Required training? Government intervention? If so, you don't belong here, you need to get an account at DU. We don't need more laws and restrictions...any TRUE gun advocate would run from those kind of suggestions!
I said in an earlier post that I don't have concrete answers. I suggested an incentive program that would provide an additional year or two on a person's CC license term for voluntarily completing approved courses, but that idea was rejected because nothing, I repeat nothing, is acceptable to folks like you.

All I can tell you with certainty is that lots of people with authority to CC have no business carrying guns in public. Apparently thats fine with you.

I probably am not a "true gun advocate" if the definition is someone who will gladly tolerate anyone who wants to carry a firearm pursuant to the 2nd Amendment regardless of his/her competence to do so safely. I'm not smart enough to know what the standard should be or how to implement it.

The only answer I have for my own safety is to avoid gun ranges during peak use periods. It's just another dimension of situational awareness.

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Old 03-23-2013, 14:44   #112
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My son, at 4 years old, knew better than to touch. I never put them up, I never left them unloaded. He is awesome at gun safety. Teach them while they are young and they will grow up with respect for the firearm.
Does he ever have friends over to play?

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/app...=2013302250034

The gun owner, a 65 year old adult was well learned in firearms. (This is a local deal....what I know isn't just from the news, it's from the local folk.)

I, and apparently a few others are tired of being chastised for want to have a simple honest discussion about how to train gun safety to the growing number of folks that have no previous exposure.

No one, (or very few, anyway) here is proposing any new laws or mandate. We're looking for honest discussion. Flaming away at any seemly valid concern just removes you from the discussion.

We're all Pro 2A. Most of us are also aware that there are more grown adults with ZERO experience with guns than ever before, and if you don't have the experience, how do you teach it to your kids?

I understand that past statistics show few accidental shootings. I also know that there are (at least locally) getting to be more and more of these every day.

(As a sad ending to my link above, the 65 year old gun owner couldn't live with the fact that his theory about kids and guns didn't work this time. He committed suicide the next day.)
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Old 03-23-2013, 15:04   #113
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I just saw the title and immediately knew what you were talking about. My co-worker for instance, in the midst of all this, sits around and watches me and another guy talk about guns, reloading, shooting, etc...and he's going to inherit a few guns here very shortly from his ailing father. Sniper rifles, 1911's shotguns and more. He has fired a gun before, but doesn't really know much about them. He just got caught up in all the hoopla and decided "hey, i have some back home, and he's going to take his vacation next month and go pick up most of the collection.

Now this guy is the most angry,chip on shoulder,mentally unstable, road raging person I know. I honestly told him to his face, he is the last person I think should have a gun. He has told me recently( last two months ) about his road raging, and following people, getting out of his car at traffic lights confronting people etc. He's going to get shot ot shoot someone. And this scares me to know, like the OP said, all these NEW gun owners who now feel they need AR's and CHL's is a little out of control. But the problem is we have no regulate it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 15:13   #114
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I don't think the problem is that we can't regulate it. We shouldn't regulate it.

But we need to honestly address it, as gun owners, before non gun owners do.
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Old 03-23-2013, 15:16   #115
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I don't think the problem is that we can't regulate it. We shouldn't regulate it.

But we need to honestly address it, as gun owners, before non gun owners do.
How?

I'm willing to help out my friends and relatives, but its clear that isn't enough to reach the people you are talking about.
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Old 03-23-2013, 15:22   #116
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Does he ever have friends over to play?

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/app...=2013302250034

The gun owner, a 65 year old adult was well learned in firearms. (This is a local deal....what I know isn't just from the news, it's from the local folk.)

I, and apparently a few others are tired of being chastised for want to have a simple honest discussion about how to train gun safety to the growing number of folks that have no previous exposure.

No one, (or very few, anyway) here is proposing any new laws or mandate. We're looking for honest discussion. Flaming away at any seemly valid concern just removes you from the discussion.

We're all Pro 2A. Most of us are also aware that there are more grown adults with ZERO experience with guns than ever before, and if you don't have the experience, how do you teach it to your kids?

I understand that past statistics show few accidental shootings. I also know that there are (at least locally) getting to be more and more of these every day.

(As a sad ending to my link above, the 65 year old gun owner couldn't live with the fact that his theory about kids and guns didn't work this time. He committed suicide the next day.)
Both of my children had friends that would come over. One time, one young girl that walked to school with my daughter saw my newly purchased charter arms / bulldog / .44 special. The girl wanted to touch it, to look at it, to play with it.

I was in the shower, but had finished running water. I heard my daughter get in this girls face and tell her "NO, LEAVE IT ALONE OR I WILL TELL MY MOM AND YOU WILL BE KICKED OUT OF OUR HOUSE".

My son was just as protective. They were both taught very young what the gun could do. They were also both taught that NOBODY was to get near my gun without somebody getting in the way. My son is 13 now. He is very respectful of my guns. I take him shooting every chance I get. My daughter is 18 now...and she owns a .22 bolt action rifle and a Ruger .45 ...she is a Master Sharpshooter with the Junior NRA. I have trained my children and they make sure their friends stay clear of anything I might have out.

BTW...how much good will a locked up gun be during a home invasion? Or one that the ammo isn't immediately available? (Excuse me mister criminal, would you mind waiting while I get my gun and / or ammo out of the safe?) I have trained in timed events and "thank God for my training" I haven't shot myself while drawing. One of the most important rules in gun safety, keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target. Muscle memory will make sure I don't betray that training.

I'm terribly sorry about the old man and his leaving guns around children who don't know any better and not having someone around who knows how to keep the others from playing with something that interests them. But it's not up to us to make sure people get trained. You could offer your services, but don't ask us to fall in line behind someone who wants more regulations put on already over-regulated gun owners. It's our God given right to own a gun for our own protection. It's our personal responsibility to get trained. If we chose to NOT get trained, then it's our own fault when we don't know what to do because we don't know our gun.

I personally have many hours of training, so I am ready if I need to be...but hope I never need to be.
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Old 03-23-2013, 15:22   #117
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I don't know the answer to that. I'm not smart enough to propose one. I'm the father of three and the grandfather of two. I'll do the best I can with them, but I don't know what to do about the rest of 'em.

I'm only smart enough to propose the question, that many obviously feel should not be discussed.
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Old 03-23-2013, 16:07   #118
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You can fix ignorance, but you can't fix stupid. Not knowing how to field strip a Glock safely is ignorance. Not knowing you shouldn't point a gun at something you don't want to shoot is stupid. You can force people to sit through a class, but you can't force them to use what they've been told, or even apply common sense.

Part of the reason I bought a gun when I moved here to Seattle is that I didn't have to jump through any hoops. Same thing for getting my CPL.
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Old 03-23-2013, 16:35   #119
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These are the types of issues to me that scream for "some" new gun legislation. Anyone buying a hand gun who is not ex LE, or military, should have to take a ccw/hunters safety type class. I was taught to handle a gun at 5, many of us were, But everyone in here has been to a range with an idiot in the lane next to them before, playing with a new toy with ZERO experience. Not a good feeling.
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Old 03-23-2013, 16:50   #120
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I don't agree that everyone should have to take a course, but have no problem with everyone having to pass a test. That should not exclude LEO or military either. I did not take a formal course but did spend perhaps 20 hours watching YouTube videos about guns and gun safety before firing a pistol and that served me quite well. I get very nervous when I watch what some idiots do at the range.


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Old 03-23-2013, 17:03   #121
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I don't agree that everyone should have to take a course, but have no problem with everyone having to pass a test. That should not exclude LEO or military either. I did not take a formal course but did spend perhaps 20 hours watching YouTube videos about guns and gun safety before firing a pistol and that served me quite well. I get very nervous when I watch what some idiots do at the range.


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Do you believe that passing a test should be required before the excercise of other fundamental rights? It's cool if you do, I'm just curious as it seems this idea or similar ideas are pretty widespread in this thread and it's an interesting topic.
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Old 03-23-2013, 17:16   #122
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In California, you have to have a Handgun Safety Certificate before you can buy any handgun. The certificate is good for 5 years.

Basically, it is nothing more than a test on safe gun handling and storage requirements. Among other things, it enumerates the gun owner's legal responsibilities.

OK, that covers the certificate. At the time you pick up a handgun, you have to demonstrate that you can load and unload the weapon including, in the case of a semiauto, proving that the chamber is empty.

In theory, every new gun owner is fully aware of the functioning of a handgun, knows the requirements for storage and is fully aware of their legal responsibilities plus has demonstrated at least a minimal capability in safe gun handling.

All new handguns come with a locking device. For rifles and shotguns, you have to certify that you have a compliant gun safe or storage cabinet.
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It's a start...

Richard
start of what? total control of every move made by an individual in their own house? More and more rules for that 'fit all' situation. Their are no children in my house. I don't have a 'need' to lockup my weapons. Everybody entering my house knows the rule, if they see a gun, it is loaded, leave it alone.

When my son was six, he know how to handle a firearm, and knew the rules. Now he is 38 and has his own SD weapons. Never a problem.

If the 'government' really wants to protect kids, they should ban home swimming pools and lock up dui drivers permanently.
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Old 03-23-2013, 17:41   #123
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I understand that. But that doesn't squelch my concerns when I find out that my son in law gets home from work and throws his compact nine on the kitchen counter as he heads for the shower. I have a six year old grandson, and his injury would crush me.
You might have other concerns. Is your sil strapping the kid in when he's riding in the car? Is he wearing his helmet when riding a bike? Is he eating too many French fries? Is he not getting enough exercise? Did he just bring home a pit bull?

At what point do you just take over and raise the kid?
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Old 03-23-2013, 18:17   #124
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Some of you seem to think that "training" will be a magic fix for the stupid herd of morons utterly lacking in common sense who, without any experience with firearms, go out and buy one and think that alone solves all their problems. Training will not fix stupid. Training WILL fix ignorant, but more gov't regulation won't make that happen any more than it already does. The newbs in your classes are ALREADY GETTING TRAINING, or they wouldn't be in your classes, because they recognize their own ignorance.

Just because you cannot think of a better solution, doesn't mean gov't involvement is the right solution, or even a helpful solution. Stop looking for Nanny Gov't to wave her wand and fix your issues, because that wand is a whip, and it will eventually become the rod she uses to beat you to death, after she has decided that you, too, shouldn't own a gun.
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Old 03-23-2013, 20:05   #125
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Some of you seem to think that "training" will be a magic fix for the stupid herd of morons utterly lacking in common sense who, without any experience with firearms, go out and buy one and think that alone solves all their problems. Training will not fix stupid. Training WILL fix ignorant, but more gov't regulation won't make that happen any more than it already does. The newbs in your classes are ALREADY GETTING TRAINING, or they wouldn't be in your classes, because they recognize their own ignorance.

Just because you cannot think of a better solution, doesn't mean gov't involvement is the right solution, or even a helpful solution. Stop looking for Nanny Gov't to wave her wand and fix your issues, because that wand is a whip, and it will eventually become the rod she uses to beat you to death, after she has decided that you, too, shouldn't own a gun.
Well said.

It is time we Americans start repealing a lot of bad laws, instead of passing more of them.

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