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Old 03-21-2013, 13:05   #51
tsmo1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Your position suggests you believe that one is mutually exclusive to the other.

Not to mention, it seems your position is that every soldier who's given his life betrayed his family.
Not at all.

You are simply reading what you want into my comments.

As I stated in my initial post on the subject, I would intervene for a third party if the situation permits. It is not an either/or proposition in all cases, but when it IS, my belief is that the safety of my family and loved ones comes first, and I will not intentionally place either of them into harm's way or abandon them in the face of danger to run off chasing dragons.

As for the later part of your comment, I never spoke of soldiers as servicemen are a different topic alltogether from civilians who are simply carrying concealed weapons. Why? Because soldiers take an oath to protect the Consitution that does, in fact, trump family. Having a family does not exempt a soldier from the oath of enlistment and every military family member knows full-well that their husband/father/mom/wife who is a service member can be called away when needed and that when they are called to action they may well not come back.

Every military spouse knows this rule and makes an educated decision that they are OK with it, either by virtue of marrying the soldier knowing that he/she is a serviceman who has taken said oath, or by deciding along with their spouse at the time of enlistment that a military career is acceptible and that embarking on that path will mean their spouse vowing to defend the consitution at risk of his/her own life.

I would think that as a soldier you would already know this...
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:09   #52
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
If a man, married with children, decided to enlist when his wife asked him not to? Yeah, I could say that could be argued to be the case.

There's a reason a lot of military members end up being divorced. A lot of families just can't handle that strain. And a lot of THOSE are even with the families that understand and 'sign on' when the member enlists.

The same argument could be made about police officers.

But you're changing the metric here. When you talk about military members, police officers, even firefighters, etc, these are all jobs that those people ELECT to do. They step up and volunteer with the full knowledge - and, presumably, the tacit agreement if not full-throated support - of their families. That's a far cry from just some guy that walks into a bank or a mall or a Walmart at just the wrong time. To try and equate them is just fallacious.



And, for the record, I was out of the Army for 5 years when the 9/11 attack happened. When the war in Afghanistan started to ramp up, I started weighing the options to re-enlist, but it was in the middle of October that my wife found out she was pregnant.

Are you planning to call me a coward now for opting to take care of my wife and child rather than re-enlisting?

Coward? No. I never said such a thing.

But neither would I say that the friends I lost who were married, "Betrayed" their familes. Because they served, and gave their lives, instead of choosing a safer job that would have kept them alive and with their families.




I would also say, your argument is a poor one, because the strain of possible death on a relationship, is probably far less a reason for all the .mil divorces, when compared to the rest of the issues. Like being gone so much of the time. Or the cheating/money/everything else that comes with it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:19   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Not at all.

You are simply reading what you want into my comments.

I never spoke of soldiers as servicemen are a different topic alltogether from civilians who are simply carrying concealed weapons. Why? Because soldiers take an oath to protect the Consitution that does, in fact, trump family, and every military family member knows full-well that their husband/father/mom/wife who is a service member can be called away when needed and that they may not come back.

Every military spouse knows this and makes an educated decision that they are OK with it, either by virtue of marrying the soldier knowing that he/she is a serviceman who has taken said oath, or by deciding along with their spouse at the time of enlistment that a military career is acceptible and that embarking on that path will mean their spouse vowing to defend the consitution at risk of his/her own life.

I would think that as a soldier you would already know this...
Doing the right thing, isn't limited to those who have sworn to do a certain job.


Its the right thing to do.


If you can turn your back and ignore or flee and still be ok with yourself, then by all means, live your life.


I have to look at myself in the mirror and still like what I see. I do not do what I do, because I swore and oath to do it. I do what I do because its the right thing to do.


I don't carry my gun when I go out because I have some notion of a calling, or because I feel I'm a "protector" of the sheeple. I carry it because its a tool that allows me to be prepared.


I don't look for fights, or incidents so I can use my gun. I'm simply prepared to find them, incase I do.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:25   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
If you can turn your back and ignore or flee and still be ok with yourself, then by all means, live your life.
And if you can intentionally throw your child or spouse into harm's way just to satisfy your ego, then by all means, enjoy your life as well.

One more time...when the situation permits, I will assist others. If, however, assistance requires me to not only put my own life at risk, but to also put my children or spouse into harm's way, I will protect them FIRST.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:29   #55
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Disgusting really disgusting.

Setting up a "what if?" scenario to justify a policy of "non-intervention" is just the flip side of a mall ninja with "what if? " scenarios to justify buying neat toys.

I grew up with a different set of values. My Dad served in WWII and took part in many well known battles. He came home and worked in bridge construction doing the "high work" above rivers, canyons and highways. When I was about three he "settled" into more sedate career. One day when I was nine, he became a local "celeb" because he risked his life to save a complete stranger (not in anything as glamorous as gunfight, but dangerous none the less) and his response was simply,

"I saw what had to be done and I did it.What else is a man supposed to do?"

My Grandfather had to kill a man in self defense after the man attacked him when Grandpa caught him stealing from Grandpa's co-workers.

I grew up with different role models than some I guess.

Mine didn't need to justify not doing anything, nor did they had to psych themselves up to prepare for theoretical scenarios. They just did what needed to be done when something really happened and then went on with life.

That is what I was taught a man should do.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:30   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Coward? No. I never said such a thing.

But neither would I say that the friends I lost who were married, "Betrayed" their familes. Because they served, and gave their lives, instead of choosing a safer job that would have kept them alive and with their families.
Actually, I agree whole-heartedly with you. That's why I added (or tried) a bunch of qualifiers in there. I think it COULD be considered a betrayal, but it would be under very limited circumstances that I would say that. For the vast majority, the spouses and children know what is involved when Husband/Wife, Mom/Dad wear that uniform and, it would be my fervent hope (and my strong belief) that the same majority are very proud of the service.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick
Doing the right thing, isn't limited to those who have sworn to do a certain job.

Its the right thing to do.
I know what you're saying here, too, but you have to acknowledge that the "right thing" may very well be making sure you can still provide for your family. And in order to do that, you have to (typically) be alive.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:45   #57
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As far as the military and families go, I believe in the old adage that if Uncle Sam were to want you to have a family, he would have issued it to you.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:53   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
And if you can intentionally throw your child or spouse into harm's way just to satisfy your ego, then by all means, enjoy your life as well.

One more time...when the situation permits, I will assist others. If, however, assistance requires me to not only put my own life at risk, but to also put my children or spouse into harm's way, I will protect them FIRST.
You keep tossing that line in hopes of hooking onto some sort of argument. But no one has said, advocated, or suggesting placing thier family in harms way at all. Well, except you.


Also, ego has nothing to do with right.
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Old 03-21-2013, 13:59   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
You keep tossing that line in hopes of hooking onto some sort of argument. But no one has said, advocated, or suggesting placing thier family in harms way at all. Well, except you.


Also, ego has nothing to do with right.
And nobody has said anything about servicemen betraying their families except...well...YOU.

Sorry, but not all tactical situations are black and white - you should know this. All I have said from the beginning is that if the situation permits me to intervene without placing my children or spouse in harm's way, I will do so. If the situation is such that intervention would place my children or spouse into harm's way, then my priority is to act to save and protect my loved ones first and foremost.

To do otherwise is a moral atrocity.
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Old 03-21-2013, 14:02   #60
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I saw this video posted on another forum. What do you folks think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=AldptFMs2AM
I think it's pointless to "make up one's mind" about what one will or will not do for others in a crisis scenario. You will only know the truth of it when confronted by such an instance.

Self-defense is clearly the primary purpose for being armed. In acknowledgement of that, I agree with the speaker that going armed for the sake of saving the world will likely work against the cause of self-preservation.

The speaker in the video seems, albeit subtly, to leave the possibility of helping others open, without abandon of the idea that self-preservation is his main objective.

His life, his thoughts, his rules. Not really seeing the big deal.
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Old 03-21-2013, 14:14   #61
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Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
Doing the right thing, isn't limited to those who have sworn to do a certain job.


Its the right thing to do.
I agree with this comment, 100%. The thing is, the right thing is vastly subjective, and cannot possibly be preconceived (unless you're psychic...like...really, really psychic). More realistically, there is rarely one right thing, but a list of things, more and less right. Confounding this reality further: self-defense scenarios are not often conducive to deep contemplation over which actions are most or least right.
People are going to handle these things according to their mental constitution, instinct, muscle memory (if any exists), and possibly a blessing or two. I don't care what your work uniform looks like.

This isn't aimed at any particular person, but ^that^ said, isn't it kind of a waste of energy to argue, or worse, judge others over what they think they might do in a public crisis scenario? Granted, it's not as silly as making flat-out claims about what one would do, but a strange exercise, nonetheless.

Take care.

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Old 03-21-2013, 14:57   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AK_Stick View Post
You keep tossing that line in hopes of hooking onto some sort of argument. But no one has said, advocated, or suggesting placing thier family in harms way at all. Well, except you.


Also, ego has nothing to do with right.
I think what he was getting at is that too often on the internets when people support their notion they portray the other side's decision in the worst possible light.

ie if one acts they are recklessly spraying bullets about a crowded public place while caring nothing for the well being of their families because they are trying to be a hero

vs.

if one doesn't act they are going to take a bullet in the ear while groveling meekly with their wife and kids because they were too much a sissy to fight back.


Typically both extremes are off base.
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:04   #63
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First, I have always disliked the term “sheepdog” or “sheep” as it is used in gunforums. I would consider myself nothing more than armed sheep by that definition. As I get older I also realize that “what if scenario” can be used to give scenarios additional thought and develop possible/probable course of action depending on the many possible variables.

Quote:
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Here's something I don't believe I've seen mentioned....


I run out to the store, whatever, leave my wife and son at home. In the store, I've checked out and close to the door as a guy at the other end of the store opens fire, screaming and just blasting away. I SEE it happen, there's no question at all of who the bad guy is.

I can draw a fire arm and try to get close enough to drop the bad guy, or I can get out the door and find cover to call the police, whatever. If I move on the guy, I could very well be killed.

Personally, I would hit the door because I don't want to widow my wife and leave my son without his father. I frankly don't give a damn what anyone thinks of me making that choice. A CCW permit is not a cape and tights. It's not a badge that makes me law enforcement, and it's not a contract with society that I'll jump in front of a bullet for anyone outside of my family.

Selfish? Maybe, but I'm not answerable to anyone other than to take care of my family. That mean putting them ahead of me, and me ahead of anyone else.
I know the scenario was clear in your mind when posted; however, what is the probability of escape without injury? There could be times where no action would be just as dangerous as action.

Too many variables in most scenarios for me to tell whether I would feel it is prudent to act or not act. Is the BG aiming/shooting at people? Is there a clear shot without me being the one that injures an innocent person? How big is the store and how many people in it? Does the possible escape route present a danger of being trampled on as others escape? A missed clear shot can mean the end of it all just the same. I pray I never find myself in a position whereI need to make such a decision and pray to make the right one if the time ever comes.

Yes, my first commitment is to my family above all as well. Yes, I believe my first instinct in a situation where firearms are involved is to get help and leave those better trained to handle it. No, I’m not so sure if I would take no action if all is clear in mind and I believe action is what the situation calls for and my choices are limited.

Overall and in the general sense, I do agree with the OP, the devil is in the details though.

The more I learn, the more I know I won’t know for sure.... unless I’m there and then.

….and thank you for your service!
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Old 02-16-2014, 08:44   #64
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More like a lesbian cougar.



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Old 02-16-2014, 08:58   #65
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I'm pretty much just an old guy out for a walk anymore and I feel I'm a bit wiser for the time I've put in.

Would I risk injury to help someone out of a burning car? Sure.

If I had a life preserver would I swim it out to someone who is drowning? Sure.

Would I intervene in a shooting situation to save a child, someone who is infirm, or elderly? Yes.

Would I intervene on behalf of a police officer? Yes.

I live in a shall issue state, so would I intervene in a shots fired situation to assist an adult man or woman who has chosen to be an unarmed victim? No.

My wife decided that she doesn't have what it takes to pull the trigger on someone and while I would hope someone would rescue her, I could never hold them responsible for her decision.

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Old 02-16-2014, 10:39   #66
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I watched about 30 seconds of the vid and knew that this guy was just trying to justify his lack of courage. I can respect a coward as long as he is honest about whom he is.

What I don't respect is someone who develops an attitude and a philosophy to justify why they are a chicken****.
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:43   #67
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It depends. I figure I won't know until I'm "there"

Hopefully "there" never occurs, but you never know.

Also I've intervened twice in situations that weren't strictly 'mine'. Neither involved firearms. In general I felt like I did the right thing. But I'm not as inclined to go out of my way now as I did then. For one, those two times were sort of part of my job (or at least I felt it was part of my job at the time).
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Old 02-16-2014, 10:44   #68
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People really need to reread Grossman and then understand life is not always so clear.

It is best to think of your plans prior to an event. I personally know that off duty I will have a different reaction to a Beslan if my family is present vs not. Grossman himself even talked about that at his seminar I attended.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:12   #69
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I watched about 30 seconds of the vid and knew that this guy was just trying to justify his lack of courage. I can respect a coward as long as he is honest about whom he is.

What I don't respect is someone who develops an attitude and a philosophy to justify why they are a chicken****.
I've been in a couple of fights with stuff that you can't buy at your local gun store, I'm pretty sure I'm not afraid to get into another. What I am is realistic.

Rolling up into a firefight in progress, it can be hard to tell who the good guys are, even when both sides are wearing uniforms. Who you are supposed to be shooting at has been a mistake made by experienced law enforcement officers and soldiers. I won't post any links, because all of those are sad stories. Picking sides in a shooting can be a challenge.

I am very aware of wound ballistics, maybe even to the point of being a subject matter expert, and even though I think the .40 S&W is a pretty good pistol round, there is a reason it is not a popular cartridge for elk or deer. Generally speaking, long guns beat handguns in a fight. What is cover for the guy with the long gun may only be concealment for the guy with the handgun. I know that even with mortal wounds, people can still fight for a while. Knowing your limitations, and the limitations of your equipment is an important skill.

No matter how justified you are in using deadly force, in Texas, you are going to go to a grand jury if you kill someone. In other states, you are still open to civil liabilities. This story is what I consider a well justified use of deadly force, that cost the guy that did the right thing a lot more than I thought was fair, but that's the way it went. Even if you save the life of a police officer, the police may not even come to your aid when you are being sued into financial ruin.
http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/o...-perry_12.html


There are millions of possible variables, it's difficult to predict what you would do in any given situation. A change of just a couple of details could make the smart move to discreetly leave through an exit with your family instead of rushing into a fight.

Now, all of that being said, I would probably lean toward trying to help someone. I would not fault someone for choosing to take care of only themselves either.
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Old 02-16-2014, 11:33   #70
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As far as the military and families go, I believe in the old adage that if Uncle Sam were to want you to have a family, he would have issued it to you.
I have a hand receipt around here somewhere in an old black briefcase, my Cadre SGT had me sign for my wife after we got married. (Both of us were active duty in AIT). She didn't think it was funny.
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