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Old 03-14-2013, 05:39   #51
ModGlock17
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
I don't think he has a law degree. His credentials come from decades of law enforcement, private study and serving as a firearm and self defense 'expert' witness in many trials. I think he's savvy enough to express his opinions on the basis of personal experience and his understanding of court decisions rather than characterizing them as pronouncements from an accredited expert in the law.
Understood. The point is, He is not a lawyer. And no one has gone after him for giving legal advices, does not mean he is qualified to do so.

Even paralegals, who have access to and laden with experience in cases, far more than him, can not give legal advices; nor can lawyer-to-be law students. Testifying in court simply does not make you a lawyer. Many people make a good living on being an expert of any field, say fertilizer, but that does not mean you're an expert of the law, nor a lawyer.

He threads the thin line between giving legal facts and legal advices. A red neck would most likely turn a presentation of legal fact into legal advice, not knowing the difference. So he is held on a pedestal in their world.
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:43   #52
vandros
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Understood. The point is, He is not a lawyer. And no one has gone after him for giving legal advices, does not mean he is qualified to do so.

Even paralegals, who have access to and laden with experience in cases, far more than him, can not give legal advices; nor can lawyer-to-be law students. Testifying in court simply does not make you a lawyer. Many people make a good living on being an expert of any field, say fertilizer, but that does not mean you're an expert of the law, nor a lawyer.

He threads the thin line between giving legal facts and legal advices. A red neck would most likely turn a presentation of legal fact into legal advice, not knowing the difference. So he is held on a pedestal in their world.
I think we all understand that. But it seems to be wise to at least listen to a person knowledgeable about legal aspects of the firearm use.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:00   #53
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Oops!

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Old 03-14-2013, 10:11   #54
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Understood. The point is, He is not a lawyer. And no one has gone after him for giving legal advices, does not mean he is qualified to do so.

Even paralegals, who have access to and laden with experience in cases, far more than him, can not give legal advices; nor can lawyer-to-be law students. Testifying in court simply does not make you a lawyer. Many people make a good living on being an expert of any field, say fertilizer, but that does not mean you're an expert of the law, nor a lawyer.

He threads the thin line between giving legal facts and legal advices. A red neck would most likely turn a presentation of legal fact into legal advice, not knowing the difference. So he is held on a pedestal in their world.
I understand what you're saying. I defend him because I think he is a credible guy with lots of experience. I also disagree with him on some subjects.

Who would you rather look to for general guidance in an open discussion like this one: Mas Ayoob or anonymous Internet 'experts'? Even some lawyers are not the experts they claim to be or are as smart as they should be.

Reputation is an indicator of one's performance over time. In my opinion, Mr. Ayoob has a solid reputation and I welcome his thoughts about SD, home security and legal exposure where firearms are involved.

Info I gather here and from other forums is 'food for thought', and nothing more. If I need legal advice, I know where to find a good lawyer.

Last edited by PhotoFeller; 03-14-2013 at 10:15..
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:29   #55
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
...A solid case may be made for having chosen a hollow point bullet in almost any caliber, especially if ANY advertising claims can be found that it is suitable for self-defense...
I think this is a great suggestion!!



Does anyone have any materials (books, advertising, articles) suggesting that hot 10mm ammo (of hollow point variety) or 10mm pistols are a good option for self-defense against people (as opposed to 4-legged critters)?
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Old 03-14-2013, 13:23   #56
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Originally Posted by G29Reload View Post
Despite the hype, a 10mm isnt much more powerful than a 40sw.
Yes, at least comparing the top ten loads of each cartridge published by Hornady, 10mm comes out just 15% bigger in terms of muzzle energy. This sort of data could be used, I think, to discount the notion that 10mm is the 44 Mag of the auto-loader world. I wouldn't care about the truth any more than my prosecution does--only to the degree it helps my case, and no more.

I think a strategy and challenge would be to shoot down any silly claims that you chose a particular handgun caliber with any intent to do anything different with it than you intended to do with any other caliber you could have chosen--stop the threat with maximum probability.

But, if I could take the probability I'll ever need to draw my weapon at all, multiply by the probability I'll shoot an innocent bystander with it then multiply by the probability I'll end up in court--I think I'll worry more about getting nailed by an asteroid or what I'll do if I win Powerball given I don't buy tickets.

But we digress.

Last edited by Bongo Boy; 03-14-2013 at 13:43..
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Old 03-14-2013, 14:44   #57
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Yes, at least comparing the top ten loads of each cartridge published by Hornady, 10mm comes out just 15% bigger in terms of muzzle energy. This sort of data could be used, I think, to discount the notion that 10mm is the 44 Mag of the auto-loader world. I wouldn't care about the truth any more than my prosecution does--only to the degree it helps my case, and no more.

I think a strategy and challenge would be to shoot down any silly claims that you chose a particular handgun caliber with any intent to do anything different with it than you intended to do with any other caliber you could have chosen--stop the threat with maximum probability.

But, if I could take the probability I'll ever need to draw my weapon at all, multiply by the probability I'll shoot an innocent bystander with it then multiply by the probability I'll end up in court--I think I'll worry more about getting nailed by an asteroid or what I'll do if I win Powerball given I don't buy tickets.

But we digress.
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Old 03-17-2013, 22:07   #58
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The thing that is most scary is the jury. Just think of all those internet post in YouTube, etc. Those could be YOUR jurors!
...And, while I'm typing away here... the truth is we live in a country where a young lady can pay $200 to go have her unborn baby murdered and walk out and go have lunch...never to worry about going to court, much less prison. (no one will want to discuss that) Yet I risk doing life in prison if I shoot someone trying to steal my car with a family member inside of it or shoot someone holding my neighbor at gunpoint b/c her jealous boyfriend wants to kill her after a date with another guy. Each of those cases has a documented precedence in a state case and each have both convictions and acquittals. (pls don't ask my to give you the details...) After a true use of justified deadly force, one still needs a lot of faith, hope, and luck so as not to have their own life ruined... in court and outside of it. IMO.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:07   #59
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Originally Posted by PhotoFeller View Post
So my 3" S&W .357 and my model 870 pump are bad choices?
The best choice for YOU is what YOU are most proficient with, but yes, all other factors being equal, a G17 is a far better weapon than a 686 and an 870 is inferior to the AR-15 for defense. If you choose them because YOU are better with them, respectively, that is a good and rational choice. If you choose an inferior weapon, especially one with which you are less proficient, simply because you're worried about what a jury might think, you are a fool.

For the short bus crowd who may not necessarily understand why short barrel revolvers and pump shotguns suck:

Short handguns in general are difficult to shoot well because of the short sight radius. A heavy DA trigger makes this more difficult. Low capacity compounds the problem further. Don't get me wrong, I often carry a 638, but it's a difficult gun to shoot well, with severe limitations.

Pump shotguns can, and often are, short stroked. If you don't believe me, attend a 3 gun match some day. Stress dramatically increases the likelihood of that. Again, low capacity is a problem. Heavy recoil makes engaging multiple targets or follow up shots much slower. Again, I own a Mossberg 500A and never camp around bears without it but it is inferior in most respects to the short barreled, suppressed AR that is my primary home defense gun.
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Old 03-18-2013, 12:56   #60
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
The best choice for YOU is what YOU are most proficient with, but yes, all other factors being equal, a G17 is a far better weapon than a 686 and an 870 is inferior to the AR-15 for defense. If you choose them because YOU are better with them, respectively, that is a good and rational choice. If you choose an inferior weapon, especially one with which you are less proficient, simply because you're worried about what a jury might think, you are a fool.

For the short bus crowd who may not necessarily understand why short barrel revolvers and pump shotguns suck:

Short handguns in general are difficult to shoot well because of the short sight radius. A heavy DA trigger makes this more difficult. Low capacity compounds the problem further. Don't get me wrong, I often carry a 638, but it's a difficult gun to shoot well, with severe limitations.

Pump shotguns can, and often are, short stroked. If you don't believe me, attend a 3 gun match some day. Stress dramatically increases the likelihood of that. Again, low capacity is a problem. Heavy recoil makes engaging multiple targets or follow up shots much slower. Again, I own a Mossberg 500A and never camp around bears without it but it is inferior in most respects to the short barreled, suppressed AR that is my primary home defense gun.
Do you deliberately phrase things to engender controversy?

"but yes, all other factors being equal, a G17 is a far better weapon than a 686 and an 870 is inferior to the AR-15 for defense. If you choose them because YOU are better with them,"


It depends on what you mean by "All things be equal" and how you juggle the rules to "make them equal" and the scenario you create, which will always be skewed towards your choices. I can "make things "equal" and in my "equal" the 686 and the 870 are the perfect weapons.

The point of your missive is well and fine, but you resent your bias as fact, which undermines the point I think you were trying to make.

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Old 03-18-2013, 13:15   #61
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
The best choice for YOU is what YOU are most proficient with, but yes, all other factors being equal, a G17 is a far better weapon than a 686 and an 870 is inferior to the AR-15 for defense. If you choose them because YOU are better with them, respectively, that is a good and rational choice. If you choose an inferior weapon, especially one with which you are less proficient, simply because you're worried about what a jury might think, you are a fool.

For the short bus crowd who may not necessarily understand why short barrel revolvers and pump shotguns suck:

Short handguns in general are difficult to shoot well because of the short sight radius. A heavy DA trigger makes this more difficult. Low capacity compounds the problem further. Don't get me wrong, I often carry a 638, but it's a difficult gun to shoot well, with severe limitations.

Pump shotguns can, and often are, short stroked. If you don't believe me, attend a 3 gun match some day. Stress dramatically increases the likelihood of that. Again, low capacity is a problem. Heavy recoil makes engaging multiple targets or follow up shots much slower. Again, I own a Mossberg 500A and never camp around bears without it but it is inferior in most respects to the short barreled, suppressed AR that is my primary home defense gun.
Andrew- I'm not smart enough or skilled enough to refute your points, and I haven't thought about "short stroking" a pump.

I've always believed that I'm more likely to hit a moving target with a short-barrel shotgun, even at very close range in one's home. The shotgun does have lots of punch, and the intimidation factor is considerable.

I would agree that a Glock is preferable for HD, although I've shot 357s effectively for a long time. To be clear, I've never fired any gun in an actual SD situation.
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Old 03-18-2013, 15:34   #62
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Believe what you wish.
My comments had nothing to do with belief, just published data, and how that data could be used to one's advantage for defense. I do choose to believe that factual data from sources sold as disinterested sources can be skillfully crafted in one's favor. Little to do with the 'buts' and the 'whys' and the 'whole story', everything to do with swaying opinion.

For my defense, the 'facts' (as I choose to select and present them) would show 10mm is only moderately more powerful, in common loads including handloads, than what is probably among the top 3 most prevalent cartridges in use by law enforcement of all kinds. That's what published data says, without my altering or filtering it.

I'd try to preempt any anticipated counterattack that shows the 'edge cases' where it is significantly more powerful, by showing that this could also be the case for any other arbitrarily chosen pair of cartridges--where one is factory, say, and the other is loaded to well over maximum recommended.

Just as is the case currently with our politicians leveraging the court of public opinion, facts are exactly what you choose them to be, and can be made completely irrelevant and rather easily brushed aside. I wouldn't want my defense to depend on them alone, but I think sprinkling a few here and there is incredibly effective with other audiences--I'd expect similar results with juries.

I would also expect that people of modest means such as myself have jack squat to say about how their defenses are conducted, and I would be astounded if either my considerable opinion or superior intellect were consulted at all during the entire course of the process.

Last edited by Bongo Boy; 03-18-2013 at 15:43..
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Old 04-17-2013, 22:51   #63
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David killed Goliath wit a rock, was it to over powered? IDK, was it politically correct, IDK? Am I a bad speller, heck ya.
To be fair, David only knocked Goliath down with the smooth stone from his sling. I think what killed Goliath is when David took Goliath's great sword and used it to chop off Goliath's head. I'm just say'n...



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"Only large manly men and very dangerous mythical creatures can handle the raw power of the 10mm"
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Old 04-18-2013, 23:25   #64
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Understood. The point is, He is not a lawyer. And no one has gone after him for giving legal advices, does not mean he is qualified to do so.
I follow Mas closely on the GATE Self-defense forum, and he is very scrupulous about not dispensing legal advice. He shares his experiences in court as an expert witness, but he is very careful to explain one should always consult with an attorney for advice on specific cases in specific juris dictions.
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Old 04-19-2013, 05:59   #65
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I follow Mas closely on the GATE Self-defense forum, and he is very scrupulous about not dispensing legal advice. He shares his experiences in court as an expert witness, but he is very careful to explain one should always consult with an attorney for advice on specific cases in specific juris dictions.
The issue is about PEOPLE taking Mas' comment as legal advice. It's not about Mas and his ability to shape words. Those are two different issues.
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Old 04-19-2013, 23:31   #66
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Look,,, It does not matter what we carry or shoot. When we step up to take the shot we best make the shot. And have a justified shoot!

The 10mm isn't some insane beast! With that said I never load my G20 with 200gn plus ammo for HD or SD. In the winter months it's 180gn xtp's and summer it's 155gn xtp's. Always my reloads. And all at book max or above. But remember I live in the free state of Okiehoma. We have it very good here over all.

But taking out a innocent that's very very bad! Be it a .22 Short or a .50 BMG. There is a lot of responsibility when it comes to taking and making the shot.

I had a nightmare last night. And I don't dream much. Much less have disturbing dreams. Two men had my oldest daughter. One with a pistol of some sort, one with a blade. Blade man drew blood and I shot. My weapon was a CZ-52. And I shoot mine very well. The CZ-52 was loaded with a surplus fmj round which it never is loaded with in real life. I jumped left them right and shot. Got both of them but also nicked my daughter and I saw the glass break in my neighbors bed room window. I woke yelling at that point and woke the wife up. As I walked out the door to go to work this morning the neighbor in my dream that took a bullet in his bedroom window pulled up to make a right at the stop sign at the corner of my home and said " good morning Jeff "

Moral,,, if you have to take the shot. Don't do it with a 7.62 x 25 FMJ. " NO " you are responsible for the shot! If your in a small Okie town that is part of a free state. You may be ok. But it you live in a **** hole state, may God Bless You and the truth be known.
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