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Old 03-13-2013, 18:24   #26
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As far as what you want to carry, well there are a lot of differing opinions. imo the 10MM was if not created for then initially adopted by the FBI because of its good penetration. Shots have to make it into the boiler room to incapacitate quickly and BGs don't stand there like B-27 targets. After a 3 day force on force class I experienced time and again that shots were frequently on shoulders, arms and hands. imo a round that has the power to penetrate through limbs and oblique shots and continue into the boiler room is a better round for stopping someone who is trying to kill me.

I am considering safety, mine.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:25   #27
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Live in your own world if you wish but Mr. Ayoob is right.

I really don't know what the burr under your saddle is, but, although I've never met the man I have followed his various writings for probably three decades now. I have disagreed with him a few times but I have never felt the need to show your kind of personal animosity because I differed with him.

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The burr under my saddle is that Ayoob counsels people to use less effective, more difficult to operate guns based on very tenuous "logic." His advice is even more likely to get people killed than the idiots that advise the use of bird shot for home defense because more people listen to him. Some poor bastard is going to get all shot to hell because he was using a 5 shot .38 when he could have had an AR-15 or G-19. Like I said earlier, you have to SURVIVE to worry about what some fools on a jury might think.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:42   #28
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
The burr under my saddle is that Ayoob counsels people to use less effective, more difficult to operate guns based on very tenuous "logic." His advice is even more likely to get people killed than the idiots that advise the use of bird shot for home defense because more people listen to him. Some poor bastard is going to get all shot to hell because he was using a 5 shot .38 when he could have had an AR-15 or G-19. Like I said earlier, you have to SURVIVE to worry about what some fools on a jury might think.
Can you give me an example of when Mas suggested a less effective and harder to operate gun?

I know he is a Glock guy. But I can't recall any instances of him recommending less effective firearms, barring a physical impairment.

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Old 03-13-2013, 18:49   #29
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I'm not a lawyer and have never participated as a juror on a shooting case, but I'd be surprised if a prosecutor and/or civil case attorney didn't consider the firearm condition, caliber, ammo, competence, attitude about CC and other factors to build a case. I'm talking about a situation where an innocent is killed or seriously injured on the scene of a SD shooting where negligence is claimed.

Even a justified SD case (the perp was a definite threat to the shooter) where there is a liability insurance prize for winning a civil case, the plantiff's counsel would be looking for anything to sway the jury. The FBI's decision not to embrace 10mm, for example, might be the type of 'evidence' used to cast doubt on the defandant's attitude about public safety.

These are just my thoughts, not arguments. Having a clean record and having clear facts about the shooting's justification are probably most important in any SD situation.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:58   #30
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
The burr under my saddle is that Ayoob counsels people to use less effective, more difficult to operate guns based on very tenuous "logic." His advice is even more likely to get people killed than the idiots that advise the use of bird shot for home defense because more people listen to him. Some poor bastard is going to get all shot to hell because he was using a 5 shot .38 when he could have had an AR-15 or G-19. Like I said earlier, you have to SURVIVE to worry about what some fools on a jury might think.
That's funny, because it certainly isn't what he recommends in his column in Backwoods home, or in any of his article in combat Handguns going back to issue #1 in the early 80's.

I have seen him, after I had come to the same conclusion independently, suggest that the 20 gauge is as effective at HD distance as a 12. I have also seen him suggest to people that they carry a gun they are comfortable with rather than one they are not, or worse, none at all.

Please point out to me where he has ever said a 5 shot .38 is a proper substitute for an AR in a situation where and AR is applicable? I would surely have noticed that had I seen it.

If you have a hard-on against "J" frame S&Ws I suggest that it isn't Mr. Ayoob's fault.

No, I find your accusations and claims to be without any support from my experience with Mr. Ayoob's writings. Just from his BWH column I could cite articles that refute every one of your claims. If you re willing to provide the quotes that support your statements, shall we have at it?

He (Ayoob) of course doesn't need my defense, but I do not enjoy the baseless slander of anyone.
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Old 03-13-2013, 19:18   #31
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That's funny, because it certainly isn't what he recommends in his column in Backwoods home, or in any of his article in combat Handguns going back to issue #1 in the early 80's.

I have seen him, after I had come to the same conclusion independently, suggest that the 20 gauge is as effective at HD distance as a 12. I have also seen him suggest to people that they carry a gun they are comfortable with rather than one they are not, or worse, none at all.

Please point out to me where he has ever said a 5 shot .38 is a proper substitute for an AR in a situation where and AR is applicable? I would surely have noticed that had I seen it.

If you have a hard-on against "J" frame S&Ws I suggest that it isn't Mr. Ayoob's fault.

No, I find your accusations and claims to be without any support from my experience with Mr. Ayoob's writings. Just from his BWH column I could cite articles that refute every one of your claims. If you re willing to provide the quotes that support your statements, shall we have at it?

He (Ayoob) of course doesn't need my defense, but I do not enjoy the baseless slander of anyone.
Like you, I've been reading his work for years and watching his TV appearances. I've always appreciated his down-to-earth, honest approach along with his vast experience and knowledge. I can't think of anything I'd fault him on. Furthermore, he is quite generous in responding to questions from GT members.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:00   #32
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Should not be different than any other caliber. If we choose to carry we need to be resposible if we ever have to use it. Practice and know what your carry round is capable of.
You're right. We got hit with this crap back in the 60's when a lot of people were switching to 357 Magnums or adding them to their revolver collections. Almost word for word the same scare tactics that were used back then.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:00   #33
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What are the penetration facts for 10mm HP defensive loads? I know it varies, as tarheel explains, but would one be concerned about the bullet passing through the perp and hitting someone else?
No known facts. Perps tend to avoid people who carry 10mm!!!



Seriously, wouldn't a shot gun considered overkill ? Get a lawyer who can show that a shotgun shell holds more grains of powder than a 10mm case. Case closed!
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:02   #34
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Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:03   #35
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I think this would be considered an underpowered 10mm.

If you look at underwood, the info is:
10mm 200gr. -1250 velocity / 694 energy

If you look at doubletap, it is:
10mm 200gr. - 1250 velocity / 694 energy

If you look at buffalo bore, it is:
10mm 200gr. - 1200 velocity / 639 energy
you are correct. the original load data by Norma was a 200gr. @ 1,200 fps.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:05   #36
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Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
not to my knowledge however, i believe he has been given judicial notice as an expert witness on such things.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:13   #37
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Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
Gee all those books and magazine articles, lectures, his own school, and you are the first person that this ever dawned on.

I am quite sure that he is legally covered from that aspect.

I guess everyone on the internet who says "Don't talk to the cops" is guilty of it too? let the prosecutions begin.


(Oh, BTW was that YOUR legal opinion of the situation?)

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Old 03-13-2013, 20:16   #38
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Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
I don't think he has a law degree. His credentials come from decades of law enforcement, private study and serving as a firearm and self defense 'expert' witness in many trials. I think he's savvy enough to express his opinions on the basis of personal experience and his understanding of court decisions rather than characterizing them as pronouncements from an accredited expert in the law.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:32   #39
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Despite the hype, a 10mm isnt much more powerful than a 40sw. Just looking at the saami loads in a Lee manual qe re talking maybe a 100 fps.

A shoot is either good or its not. Caliber is irrellevant. From what i recall of the fish case caliber had nothing to do with it. Wenger was a better sourcemof info on this than ayoob.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:55   #40
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Photo, I like to hike (and we have mountain lions and black bears around) and I don't like to have many guns... So, I currently only have g29 which is great for sd/hd/ccw/hiking. I don't handload - I prefer to purchase ammo either from underwood or doubletap. That's a bit pricey, but I think reliability is worth it. I never shot underpowered 10mm and prefer hot loads, so I don't think I'll be using powered-down 10mm even when not hiking. Although, as several pointed out, that's an option.

I think 10mm is not that big of a powerhouse. It's got definately more energy than 9mm, 40s&w, or 45acp. But, not as much as to break a wrist or stop a grizzly. It's a decent caliber, imho. But, if I wasn't hiking, I'd be using 9mm g19.

P.S. Isn't it nice to discuss something noncontroversial for a change?
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Old 03-13-2013, 21:58   #41
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There are more brown noser's on this site than I am comfortable with.
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Old 03-13-2013, 22:03   #42
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There are more brown noser's on this site than I am comfortable with.
i havent heard that term used since i was in the coast guard.
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Old 03-13-2013, 22:03   #43
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As usual at the range and in life, Ayoob is right on target.

Personally, when I carry 10mm for self defense, I use hollow points that are "FBI weak" loadings. Privi Partisan makes them and they are dirt cheap for 10mm. They push 180 grain hollow point around 1000 FPS, so its a hair under 500FPE. it isn't much different from a hot .40 or 9mm round, its a hollow point, so less chance of over penetration, and its cheap ammo, so I have an opportunity to practice with it a lot.

Lets be honest, if you use a 230 grain hard cast lead 10mm from underwood capable of taking down a cape buffalo, the jury is gonna wonder why that is your home defense load when so many other things are on the market. The key to a self defense scenario under the law is reasonableness. If you can tell a jury that you purposely bought weak loads, I think your chances of showing the self-defense is/was reasonable is better than with big game hunting loads in the gun.
This could be one of the most rediculous reponses I have read.
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Old 03-13-2013, 22:09   #44
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I think Ayoob's comments make complete sense--and I believe what he said is that it is a matter of the defense's skill in managing the jury's opinion. But what he also said is that there is a sense of 'reasonable' we hope prevails with the jury, and what is the powerful thing on your side is that your actions were reasonable. He gave a couple of examples I think were good ones--two cases where an innocent bystander is harmed by the shooter's decision. Since the shooting at the Aurora CO theatre here, I've spent quite a bit time wondering about what would have been reasonable action for an armed defender in a dark theatre under the circumstances, and I believe taking the shot with good reason to believe you'd make the shot would have been justifiable, even if you weren't 100% certain of what was behind your target. Reasonable risk, IN MY OPINION.

However, if the choice is between a) I stand a fairly good chance of hitting a no-shoot if I fire in self-defense, and b) if I don't shoot I'll be fired upon, then I'm going to wait until I have a more certain shot. Why? Because I'm trained, and I'm moving. The bad guy probably isnt, and his chances of hitting me are fairly small. If he's so close to me I believe his chances are near certain, then so are my chances of hitting him. So, I believe my choice would be evasive action and seek cover before attempting a shot I feel had any chance of hitting a bystander.

10mm? My opinion is, if I can't, myself, put together enough data to prove beyond a doubt that there is nothing special about this cartridge and that the facts regarding it, a 45ACP +P, and/or a .357 revolver clearly demonstrate it is no more malicious a choice than those...well, then I'm no data analyst and Powerpoint wizard.

The notion that we shoot people with the intent to do anything other than stop the fight is ridiculous, but many hold such notions--that we are able to shoot to maim, shoot to frighten, and shoot to warn. They're untrained people ignorant of the facts, and I'd try to persuade my defense that the jury needed to be educated about the content of training across the country, for law enforcement and the general public.

I believe it is Detroit that was dragged into court on the claim that the use of hollow points by its police department constituted the use of unecessary force, and my understanding is that the City lost and was prohibited from the use of HP ammo (I also believe this was at least 10 years ago and I have no idea if this is fact or not). So, juries can clearly be convinced of all sorts of nonsense.

If it's a home defense situation, then I'm not going be in court--at least not in Colorado under any circumstances I can imagine. My intruder doesn't have to be armed, doesn't have indicate he intends to do me any harm, and I'm under no obligation to prove either. I'm authorized to use deadly force, and have no obligation to retreat. However, if was I unfortunate enough to live in a state where enemies of the public masquerading as public servants were able to make a dog-and-pony show of my efforts to defend myself in my home, then I'd suggest to my defense that I could legally have chosen a shotgun for that purpose, but chose a handgun with less than half the muzzle energy instead, because I'm a nice guy, and I care.

I would like to be able to ask the Court if it would be happier had I beaten the guy to death with baseball bat or a crowbar--and if that would somehow make them feel better. I wouldn't go that way as a defense, however.

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Old 03-13-2013, 22:29   #45
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This could be one of the most rediculous reponses I have read.
I have been on a jury in a homicide by gun case and I think that wvtarheel's response was quite reasonable and similar to discussions we actually had during deliberation.

BTW do you not know how to spell "Ridiculous" or were you trying to be cute?
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Old 03-13-2013, 22:30   #46
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Can you give me an example of when Mas suggested a less effective and harder to operate gun?

I know he is a Glock guy. But I can't recall any instances of him recommending less effective firearms, barring a physical impairment.

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I,m too lazy to locate an article right now but I think I've seen him recommend short barrel revolvers and pump action shotguns.

It's entirely possible that I'm remembering incorrectly. He always just rubbed me the wrong way. Some people juggle geese.
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Old 03-13-2013, 22:37   #47
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I have been on a jury in a homicide by gun case and I think that wvtarheel's response was quite reasonable and similar to discussions we actually had during deliberation.

BTW do you not know how to spell "Ridiculous" or were you trying to be cute?
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Old 03-13-2013, 22:41   #48
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I,m too lazy to locate an article right now but I think I've seen him recommend short barrel revolvers and pump action shotguns.
So my 3" S&W .357 and my model 870 pump are bad choices?
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Old 03-13-2013, 23:02   #49
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David killed Goliath wit a rock, was it to over powered? IDK, was it politically correct, IDK? Am I a bad speller, heck ya.
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Old 03-13-2013, 23:05   #50
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David killed Goliath wit a rock, was it to over powered? IDK, was it politically correct, IDK? Am I a bad speller, heck ya.
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