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Old 03-13-2013, 18:06   #21
Andrew Wiggin
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
So, what was it that Massad Ayoob said specifically in this particular situation that you disagree with?
Sorry. I got all ADHD and posted before I meant to. I edited my earlier post.

It's his conclusion that I disagree with. I don't believe that Fish's use of a 10mm had one iota of effect on the outcome of the case. If he used a S&W 638 it would have turned out exactly the same way. The DA pursued charges when he shouldn't have and the judge suppressed piles of relevant evidence.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:10   #22
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Originally Posted by justin10mm View Post
10mm 200gr. - 1125 velocity / 562 energy
I think this would be considered an underpowered 10mm.

If you look at underwood, the info is:
10mm 200gr. -1250 velocity / 694 energy

If you look at doubletap, it is:
10mm 200gr. - 1250 velocity / 694 energy

If you look at buffalo bore, it is:
10mm 200gr. - 1200 velocity / 639 energy
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:13   #23
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Sorry. I got all ADHD and posted before I meant to. I edited my earlier post.

It's his conclusion that I disagree with. I don't believe that Fish's use of a 10mm had one iota of effect on the outcome of the case. If he used a S&W 638 it would have turned out exactly the same way. The DA pursued charges when he shouldn't have and the judge suppressed piles of relevant evidence.
Yep, agreed. But I also think jurors impression of Mr. Fish could be "unofficially" influenced (at least to some extent) by the "powerful" weapon he was carrying. No?
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:15   #24
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
Harold Fish was railroaded by a corrupt court system under an old law which basically required a person to admit to killing a person and then PROVE necessity as an affirmative defense against a homicide charge. The current law shifts proof back on the state where it belongs. Harold Fish would have gone to prison no matter what he used.

Massad Ayoob is a pompous blowhard who gets paid to be a pompous blowhard. He writes articles with all sorts of goofy stuff but the central theme seems to be an attempt to scare you into using the absolute least effective tools you have at your disposal. I'm grateful for his work with gun rights but I'm sick of hearing his fanciful crap.

For the record, that PPU stuff is weaker than .40 S&W and chronographed at less than 880 fps out of my EAA Witness 4.5" barrel. They failed to expand. Beau coups penetration.

Gel test: 10mm 180 gr Prvi Partizan JHP - YouTube

Live in your own world if you wish but Mr. Ayoob is right.

I really don't know what the burr under your saddle is, but, although I've never met the man I have followed his various writings for probably three decades now. I have disagreed with him a few times but I have never felt the need to show your kind of personal animosity because I differed with him.

To the OP.

Having been on a homicide jury myself, although different circumstances, I have a feeling for the question that are asked in a jury room. Something that is overlooked in ammo/caliber choice is the wide range of situations one might face and the wide differences in the ammo/caliber one would chose IF they had foreknowledge of the events they would face, of course they would be remiss if the proceeded at all in that case. Without that insight into the future, the average, non-psychic, person can only be expected to make reasonable choices. A solid case may be made for having chosen a hollow point bullet in almost any caliber, especially if ANY advertising claims can be found that it is suitable for self-defense. You cannot be expected to know what would be perfect in a situation you weren't in control of.

But Mr. Ayoob, IMO is correct in his assessment of the risks and the justifications.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:20   #25
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Yep, agreed. But I also think jurors impression of Mr. Fish could be "unofficially" influenced (at least to some extent) by the "powerful" weapon he was carrying. No?
Possibly, but there were three main reasons that Fish was convicted:

*His attorney was a window licking retard.

*The judge was biased and corrupt.

*The existing law unfairly placed the burden of proof on the accused.

If any one of those factors were different, the outcome might have been different as well. In "normal" circumstances, a good attorney would have used the prosecutor's clumsy attempt at intimidating the jury to turn them against the prosecutor. He simply needs to point out that the prosecutor considers them to be emotional and easily manipulated (irrelevant that they actually are) and suggest to them that they might be offended by such a blatant attempt. He then goes on to note a few minor technical points about the handgun and reminds the jury that the weapon is irrelevant and what matters is whether the use of deadly physical force was justified or not.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:24   #26
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As far as what you want to carry, well there are a lot of differing opinions. imo the 10MM was if not created for then initially adopted by the FBI because of its good penetration. Shots have to make it into the boiler room to incapacitate quickly and BGs don't stand there like B-27 targets. After a 3 day force on force class I experienced time and again that shots were frequently on shoulders, arms and hands. imo a round that has the power to penetrate through limbs and oblique shots and continue into the boiler room is a better round for stopping someone who is trying to kill me.

I am considering safety, mine.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:25   #27
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Originally Posted by countrygun View Post
Live in your own world if you wish but Mr. Ayoob is right.

I really don't know what the burr under your saddle is, but, although I've never met the man I have followed his various writings for probably three decades now. I have disagreed with him a few times but I have never felt the need to show your kind of personal animosity because I differed with him.

(snip)
The burr under my saddle is that Ayoob counsels people to use less effective, more difficult to operate guns based on very tenuous "logic." His advice is even more likely to get people killed than the idiots that advise the use of bird shot for home defense because more people listen to him. Some poor bastard is going to get all shot to hell because he was using a 5 shot .38 when he could have had an AR-15 or G-19. Like I said earlier, you have to SURVIVE to worry about what some fools on a jury might think.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:42   #28
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
The burr under my saddle is that Ayoob counsels people to use less effective, more difficult to operate guns based on very tenuous "logic." His advice is even more likely to get people killed than the idiots that advise the use of bird shot for home defense because more people listen to him. Some poor bastard is going to get all shot to hell because he was using a 5 shot .38 when he could have had an AR-15 or G-19. Like I said earlier, you have to SURVIVE to worry about what some fools on a jury might think.
Can you give me an example of when Mas suggested a less effective and harder to operate gun?

I know he is a Glock guy. But I can't recall any instances of him recommending less effective firearms, barring a physical impairment.

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Old 03-13-2013, 18:49   #29
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I'm not a lawyer and have never participated as a juror on a shooting case, but I'd be surprised if a prosecutor and/or civil case attorney didn't consider the firearm condition, caliber, ammo, competence, attitude about CC and other factors to build a case. I'm talking about a situation where an innocent is killed or seriously injured on the scene of a SD shooting where negligence is claimed.

Even a justified SD case (the perp was a definite threat to the shooter) where there is a liability insurance prize for winning a civil case, the plantiff's counsel would be looking for anything to sway the jury. The FBI's decision not to embrace 10mm, for example, might be the type of 'evidence' used to cast doubt on the defandant's attitude about public safety.

These are just my thoughts, not arguments. Having a clean record and having clear facts about the shooting's justification are probably most important in any SD situation.
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Old 03-13-2013, 18:58   #30
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Originally Posted by Andrew Wiggin View Post
The burr under my saddle is that Ayoob counsels people to use less effective, more difficult to operate guns based on very tenuous "logic." His advice is even more likely to get people killed than the idiots that advise the use of bird shot for home defense because more people listen to him. Some poor bastard is going to get all shot to hell because he was using a 5 shot .38 when he could have had an AR-15 or G-19. Like I said earlier, you have to SURVIVE to worry about what some fools on a jury might think.
That's funny, because it certainly isn't what he recommends in his column in Backwoods home, or in any of his article in combat Handguns going back to issue #1 in the early 80's.

I have seen him, after I had come to the same conclusion independently, suggest that the 20 gauge is as effective at HD distance as a 12. I have also seen him suggest to people that they carry a gun they are comfortable with rather than one they are not, or worse, none at all.

Please point out to me where he has ever said a 5 shot .38 is a proper substitute for an AR in a situation where and AR is applicable? I would surely have noticed that had I seen it.

If you have a hard-on against "J" frame S&Ws I suggest that it isn't Mr. Ayoob's fault.

No, I find your accusations and claims to be without any support from my experience with Mr. Ayoob's writings. Just from his BWH column I could cite articles that refute every one of your claims. If you re willing to provide the quotes that support your statements, shall we have at it?

He (Ayoob) of course doesn't need my defense, but I do not enjoy the baseless slander of anyone.
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Old 03-13-2013, 19:18   #31
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That's funny, because it certainly isn't what he recommends in his column in Backwoods home, or in any of his article in combat Handguns going back to issue #1 in the early 80's.

I have seen him, after I had come to the same conclusion independently, suggest that the 20 gauge is as effective at HD distance as a 12. I have also seen him suggest to people that they carry a gun they are comfortable with rather than one they are not, or worse, none at all.

Please point out to me where he has ever said a 5 shot .38 is a proper substitute for an AR in a situation where and AR is applicable? I would surely have noticed that had I seen it.

If you have a hard-on against "J" frame S&Ws I suggest that it isn't Mr. Ayoob's fault.

No, I find your accusations and claims to be without any support from my experience with Mr. Ayoob's writings. Just from his BWH column I could cite articles that refute every one of your claims. If you re willing to provide the quotes that support your statements, shall we have at it?

He (Ayoob) of course doesn't need my defense, but I do not enjoy the baseless slander of anyone.
Like you, I've been reading his work for years and watching his TV appearances. I've always appreciated his down-to-earth, honest approach along with his vast experience and knowledge. I can't think of anything I'd fault him on. Furthermore, he is quite generous in responding to questions from GT members.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:00   #32
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Should not be different than any other caliber. If we choose to carry we need to be resposible if we ever have to use it. Practice and know what your carry round is capable of.
You're right. We got hit with this crap back in the 60's when a lot of people were switching to 357 Magnums or adding them to their revolver collections. Almost word for word the same scare tactics that were used back then.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:00   #33
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What are the penetration facts for 10mm HP defensive loads? I know it varies, as tarheel explains, but would one be concerned about the bullet passing through the perp and hitting someone else?
No known facts. Perps tend to avoid people who carry 10mm!!!



Seriously, wouldn't a shot gun considered overkill ? Get a lawyer who can show that a shotgun shell holds more grains of powder than a 10mm case. Case closed!
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:02   #34
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Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:03   #35
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Originally Posted by vandros View Post
I think this would be considered an underpowered 10mm.

If you look at underwood, the info is:
10mm 200gr. -1250 velocity / 694 energy

If you look at doubletap, it is:
10mm 200gr. - 1250 velocity / 694 energy

If you look at buffalo bore, it is:
10mm 200gr. - 1200 velocity / 639 energy
you are correct. the original load data by Norma was a 200gr. @ 1,200 fps.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:05   #36
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
not to my knowledge however, i believe he has been given judicial notice as an expert witness on such things.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:13   #37
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
Gee all those books and magazine articles, lectures, his own school, and you are the first person that this ever dawned on.

I am quite sure that he is legally covered from that aspect.

I guess everyone on the internet who says "Don't talk to the cops" is guilty of it too? let the prosecutions begin.


(Oh, BTW was that YOUR legal opinion of the situation?)

Last edited by countrygun; 03-13-2013 at 20:15..
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:16   #38
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Originally Posted by ModGlock17 View Post
Does anybody know if Ayoob has a law degree?

If not, he is guilty of giving legal advice without being qualified by a BAR.
I don't think he has a law degree. His credentials come from decades of law enforcement, private study and serving as a firearm and self defense 'expert' witness in many trials. I think he's savvy enough to express his opinions on the basis of personal experience and his understanding of court decisions rather than characterizing them as pronouncements from an accredited expert in the law.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:32   #39
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Despite the hype, a 10mm isnt much more powerful than a 40sw. Just looking at the saami loads in a Lee manual qe re talking maybe a 100 fps.

A shoot is either good or its not. Caliber is irrellevant. From what i recall of the fish case caliber had nothing to do with it. Wenger was a better sourcemof info on this than ayoob.
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Old 03-13-2013, 20:55   #40
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Photo, I like to hike (and we have mountain lions and black bears around) and I don't like to have many guns... So, I currently only have g29 which is great for sd/hd/ccw/hiking. I don't handload - I prefer to purchase ammo either from underwood or doubletap. That's a bit pricey, but I think reliability is worth it. I never shot underpowered 10mm and prefer hot loads, so I don't think I'll be using powered-down 10mm even when not hiking. Although, as several pointed out, that's an option.

I think 10mm is not that big of a powerhouse. It's got definately more energy than 9mm, 40s&w, or 45acp. But, not as much as to break a wrist or stop a grizzly. It's a decent caliber, imho. But, if I wasn't hiking, I'd be using 9mm g19.

P.S. Isn't it nice to discuss something noncontroversial for a change?
I'll put the reliability of any of my handloads up against any manufacturer. I feel more confident when I control the process of creating my own ammunition.
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