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Old 03-29-2013, 07:11   #241
n2extrm
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Wisky if you decide to sell it let me know. I would be interested if you are willing to ship to my FFL. We can figure out details see if its worth it to you. I have been looking for something similar anyway. Really I was looking for a Rock Island to mess with, but for a few dollars more I think SA is a good gun. By the way if you ship it to hem hey will make it right, you pay shipping and they will fix it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:39   #242
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I wouldn't condemn the design of the 1911. If you had as many companies copying the Glock and claiming they were "Glocks" and if you had so many companies making their own "Glock" magazines I would be willing to bet there would be problems.

Funny, Colt, Singer, Union Switch & Signal, Remington, Ithaca, managed to make 1911s to government/Browning specs and several companies made 7 round mags. I have done a heck of a lot of research on the 1911 and those didn't seem to have anywhere near the problem that today's "copies" and trick mags seem to have.

Yup I guess there is nothing called a "1911" that's reliable
So using that logic there is no real 1911. Hmmm what's a manly man to do.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:45   #243
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Originally Posted by WiskyT View Post
****ing 1911! So now what? Do I dress the stop down? Do I take the gun to the smith and have him do it? Is the stop not the problem?

WTF, this 1911 stuff is a pita.

The SIG guy dropped his high end 226somethingorother on the deck with the slide locked open. It wouldn't close after that. He had to stop shooting. After we were done I determined the slide stop had bent and couldn't be depressed enough to release the slide. I levered it down with a screwdriver and we got it closed. When I left he was in the process of removing the stop from the gun to see about bending it or getting a replacement.

The point was, karma got both of them. The only two guys bragging about their guns got to do the walk of shame.
No offense WT, I never take much stock in what LEO or ex LEO carry/shoot. The fact you shot w/ retired LEO that put their gun on the ground is fricking ridiculously scary.
I never brag about my guns, they are tools. I do defend them though, against those that don't know better & most 1911 haters don't know better. Yes, mags in a 1911 are important. Most will not tolerate cheap China made mags, then again, neither will most Glocks. CMPM or Wilson always work in all my guns. You could try changing out the slide release, cheaper than going the the gunsmith. I have two SA, both ran fine out of the box w/ a bit of break in. Both have been lightly customized, sights, triggers, grip safeties. No extended anything, no ambi safety, they just run & run.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:54   #244
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Hmmm what's a manly man to do.
Damn sure isnt shooting cast boolets through a Glock...
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:01   #245
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Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel View Post
Sell it and get a M&P or a Glock.
I have Glock and the MP is decent enough, but the Glocks that I already paid for do everything an MP would do.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:05   #246
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Wisky if you decide to sell it let me know. I would be interested if you are willing to ship to my FFL. We can figure out details see if its worth it to you. I have been looking for something similar anyway. Really I was looking for a Rock Island to mess with, but for a few dollars more I think SA is a good gun. By the way if you ship it to hem hey will make it right, you pay shipping and they will fix it.
I don't think it will come to that. There are enough resources and I think the problem is simple once I figger out what it is, that I should be able to get it running.

As for SA, yes, to be fair to them, I haven't contacted them yet. For one thing, it will be easier to try out the little things I am doing then to ship it to them. For the other, there is always the chance of the dreaded "Test fired, within spec" response I could get if it didn't choke in the 20 rounds they might run through it. Intermittent problems are a biotch and if it has to go back and forth a few times it could take six months to straighten out as opposed to a recoil spring.

ETA: But yes, you will get first dibs on it if I decide to sell it.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:24   #247
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I wouldn't condemn the design of the 1911. If you had as many companies copying the Glock and claiming they were "Glocks" and if you had so many companies making their own "Glock" magazines I would be willing to bet there would be problems.

Funny, Colt, Singer, Union Switch & Signal, Remington, Ithaca, managed to make 1911s to government/Browning specs and several companies made 7 round mags. I have done a heck of a lot of research on the 1911 and those didn't seem to have anywhere near the problem that today's "copies" and trick mags seem to have.

Yup I guess there is nothing called a "1911" that's reliable
Here's the thing, all I did was open the box, load the mag that the OEM sent with it, and fired it. I haven't monkeyed with anything other than to have a nucleur engineer with 3 decades of building 1911's hand turn a standard reamer a couple of twists to chase the defective chamber. No trick mags, no extended slide stops, no chrome parts, no nothing.

As for "specs", all I can tell you is that this is a "Mil-Spec" gun and it's a dog. What am I supposed to do re-animate JMB and have him make me one himself?

So, if it's not the design, and it's the builder (I agree) the result is the same, you get a crapshoot when you plunk your money down on one of these things. It's 42 ounces of sharp edges that might or might not work.

As for my specific problem, premature slide lock, (not to even mention the nose up, jammed into the hood, incident with factory 230jhp's) there are pages of people on google with the same problem across every manufacturer and there are even highend "Bulletproof" slide stops to cure the problem.

The 1911 reminds me of the old sportscars and their owners. Yes, an XKE ragtop is a beautiful car, and if they only used quality electronic gear in the car it would have been everything it's owners claimed it was, but they didn't. They used Lucas crap and good luck getting home if it started raining. Then came the Datsun 240 Z and they were cheaper, lacked the soul of a Dino or E-Type, but they performed well and worked.

If you want a better analogy, how about Mauser? How many companies make "Mausers" now? Probably more than make 1911's and they work fine.

I think that part of the problem with 1911's is that everything has to be just right. A few thousandths on a link, or foot, or locking lug, or slide stop shaft, or slide stop engagement, and it's FAIL. WhyTF are there so many different mag designs? Buy even the "same" mag a few years apart and the follower is completely different.

And as for staying true to the original design, which "original" design? The original design was changed several times by JMB and the DOD even from it's inception. So the "purist" arguement falls kind of flat. My gun is as original as any Singer, Colt etc right down to the parkerized finish and it doesn't work.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:27   #248
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Damn sure isnt shooting cast boolets through a Glock...
Where are those pictures? They are around here somewhere...
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:39   #249
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No offense WT, I never take much stock in what LEO or ex LEO carry/shoot. The fact you shot w/ retired LEO that put their gun on the ground is fricking ridiculously scary.
I never brag about my guns, they are tools. I do defend them though, against those that don't know better & most 1911 haters don't know better. Yes, mags in a 1911 are important. Most will not tolerate cheap China made mags, then again, neither will most Glocks. CMPM or Wilson always work in all my guns. You could try changing out the slide release, cheaper than going the the gunsmith. I have two SA, both ran fine out of the box w/ a bit of break in. Both have been lightly customized, sights, triggers, grip safeties. No extended anything, no ambi safety, they just run & run.
The guy who dropped his SIG isn't retired LEO, he was an RO from my club who was helping out. He wanted to shoot the course and the last line had some room. It actually fell out of his holster because he didn't reholster properly. It was good training for him. Better he get frustrated on the range than worse in the field.

As for your LEO point, agreed. There was a G19 choking out there but I didn't mention it. The reason was that he was short on ammo and borrowed a handful from the guy next to him. The guy next to him was shooting a G23

One other Glock choked. It was ammo related. He had some "WCC" 9mm with no date on the headstamp. It was wierd stuff. it was ball ammo, but the bullet had a mile of full diameter sticking out of the case and it wouldn't go into battery. The COAL was the same (eyeballing it) at other ball ammo he had but this ammo wouldn't have run in anything unless it had a Roy Weatherby freebore. The box was wierd too. It was a genuine Winchester box, but the specific load info was stamped on there with different ink, like a hand stamper would use. The load info looked like a canceled check stamp. All printing on the box was bi-lingual (French) and there was sometype of ordinance stamp on the box with a crown and a weird "C" in the middle of it. I'm guessing this was some type of Candian contract ammo that was surplused out. Maybe the Canadians had some type of SMG with really long leades or something. Either way, that wasn't a gun or shooter issue.

So the only Glocks that failed were due to being the wrong, or defective, ammo.

As for mags and my particular gun, I don't think the mags are the issue and they sure as **** better not be. I'm using CM Shooting Stars and that is what it came with. I have 7 of them and the gun will choke, or run, randomly with all of them.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:50   #250
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So using that logic there is no real 1911. Hmmm what's a manly man to do.
Exactly. If you don't have a JMB original, and ammo from the War Department, then it's all your fault. In this case, it's all my fault.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:12   #251
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So using that logic there is no real 1911. Hmmm what's a manly man to do.
If you can't red N2's post right above you, and can't figure it out I doubt I can help you, but I will try just one little thing.

If you are familiar with .22 rifles you might have heard of the Browning designed, Winchester produced pump, either by the 1890 or 1905 designation.

Rossi made a duplicate of that rifle (and still do although upgraded) for several years. So close was it that many parts were interchangeable. Yet, the early Rossi's were plagued with troubles. from issues with tubular magazine springs being too soft, to hammer and sear engagement wearing prematurely etc. Even though those parts would interchange with the original Winchesters.

Now, is the original Browning design/Winchester production to be considered junk or unreliable? Should we call the Rossi a Winchester and blame the original design for the flaws in the Rossi?

There are many examples in the firearms industry of clones that don't live up to the original and examples of those that are as good or better (the Tanfoglio CZs come to mind).
I don't here people faulting the CZ design when a clone has problem.



I really don't see What is "Manly" or "Unmanly" about saying that the original design should not be blamed for the failures of modifications to it.

In ten or twenty years people are going to diss'ing the Glock because their Mattel clone doesn't run well with Tyco magazines.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:55   #252
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WT, my last 1911 was a mil spec SA. It chunked a bit fo the first 100rds or so, then smoothed up & now runs 100%. I did ream the throat a tiny bit as it was a bit short. Then I did the light custom work of sights & trigger, beaver tail grip safety. It runs & runs w/ good mags like Wilson or CMPM. If you can get some add'l rds down range, it may just smooth up. Probably my only gripe about the 1911 design. The newer guns are tighter than the old mil spec guns & can use a good break in period. IME, the 1911 alos likes to run "wet", so I use a good gun grease instead of oil on the slide & bushing. It's not unusual for me to go 1000rds of lead ammo before cleaning one, 2-3K of jacketed.
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Old 03-29-2013, 13:03   #253
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Gone full circle to the origin point made in the video. So many variables in the various manufactures of 1911s that you do have to be willing to figure some things out yourself. Especially if your not paying $2k for one. You could get one that works. you may not.
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Old 03-29-2013, 15:56   #254
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As Fred said wet and broke in. I think my Kimber (oh my god he said Kimber) really started to shine and feel like it was happy after 1500 rounds. Could have been me getting use to it but it felt smoother in general. Never gave me trouble, don't remember a miss feed or anything but it just seemed like the gun was smoother after that point.

I use shooters choice FP-10 for a lube. I like it supposed to be synthetic I think? I am notorious for not cleaning things. I never stop to put a drop of oil on it in a match. I might wipe it down if it was a humid day or rained while I was out, but reapply oil, not really. I am a bad man.

I am sure now 2 things will be true first I must be a liar because not only do I claim no issues with a 1911 but I said it was a Kimber. Second the dam thing will break because I said it ran fine no issues.

Wisky
At any rate I think you need to nick that slide stop and you will be fine. I don't know why people keep trying to make it better. I certainly don't think it's you or even the magazine. I think it is just as you said tolerance stacking. One thing you never have with injection molded plastic, well for the most part I guess I had it with the G30. But that was different because it was a Glock
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Old 03-29-2013, 16:09   #255
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Gone full circle to the origin point made in the video. So many variables in the various manufactures of 1911s that you do have to be willing to figure some things out yourself. Especially if your not paying $2k for one. You could get one that works. you may not.
Kinda reminds me of your LNL adventure. It was great press at a good price, as long as you would be willing to mess around and fix things? You could argue the lee does the same job at a fraction of the cost with less trouble as well, but its not really a fair comparison?

You get what you pay for Steve. It's a production gun, a entry level price tag at the end of the day. Nothing wrong with it but set your sights on what it is. If you want a custom fit gun you have to pay for a skilled gunsmith to put the pieces together. I bought the Milspec knowing what it was. A basic shooter, no frills. If I wanted an amazing tight fit I would have called Ed or night hawk. Just don't have that kind of cash now. Someday maybe. Will it shoot better probably not, the Milspec is better then me on my best day. But an Ed Brown just is a smooth gun with a nice finish and it runs great, at least the one I shot did.

You can pick on me but that would be like me picking on you for buying a good barrel for a Glock. If its so perfect why did you spend another $150 on a barrel? Or the EGW case gauge. Why is it so special? You like it, it fills your need and that's awesome I am happy for you. I can toss my ammo through the Dillon case gauge every so many rounds is good, good enough for me. The world won't end if I have a failure to feed at a match, I do it for fun. Ed or Kimber won't be sponsoring me any time soon. (Glock hates me cause i own 1911's probably why the sabotaged my G30, so no worries they would throw cash my way.) I am ok with it, if you aren't ok and need to try to run 100% I think it's great. It's just too much work to have some fun. I wouldn't pick on you for it, it a difference in perspective. That is why they sell 1911s and Glocks at the local gun store!

By the way I like the new signature line. Stupid IPad gets me all the time!
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Old 03-29-2013, 17:45   #256
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Ha, wait until Glock makes a poly framed 1911! It will drive the Glock guys nuts or they will finally accept it because it is plastic & cheap.
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Old 03-29-2013, 18:15   #257
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Kinda reminds me of your LNL adventure. It was great press at a good price, as long as you would be willing to mess around and fix things? You could argue the lee does the same job at a fraction of the cost with less trouble as well, but its not really a fair comparison?

You get what you pay for Steve. It's a production gun, a entry level price tag at the end of the day. Nothing wrong with it but set your sights on what it is. If you want a custom fit gun you have to pay for a skilled gunsmith to put the pieces together. I bought the Milspec knowing what it was. A basic shooter, no frills. If I wanted an amazing tight fit I would have called Ed or night hawk. Just don't have that kind of cash now. Someday maybe. Will it shoot better probably not, the Milspec is better then me on my best day. But an Ed Brown just is a smooth gun with a nice finish and it runs great, at least the one I shot did.

You can pick on me but that would be like me picking on you for buying a good barrel for a Glock. If its so perfect why did you spend another $150 on a barrel? Or the EGW case gauge. Why is it so special? You like it, it fills your need and that's awesome I am happy for you. I can toss my ammo through the Dillon case gauge every so many rounds is good, good enough for me. The world won't end if I have a failure to feed at a match, I do it for fun. Ed or Kimber won't be sponsoring me any time soon. (Glock hates me cause i own 1911's probably why the sabotaged my G30, so no worries they would throw cash my way.) I am ok with it, if you aren't ok and need to try to run 100% I think it's great.g It's just too much work to have some fun. I wouldn't pick on you for it, it a difference in perspective. That is why they sell 1911s and Glocks at the local gun store!

By the way I like the new signature line. Stupid IPad gets me all the time!
I bought the KKM because I know people like them. LW are not good just fair. If I didn't shoot lead I would never have bought it. The Glock barrel is just fine.
The Glock and the 1911 are what they are. Glock is a great plastic gun. Reliable and simple. Its at its best in 9mm and .40. 1911 is a great high end gun. Buy the less expensive non-fitted gun and you MAY need to do some final fitting or adjusting. After that it should be fine. I do think the 1911 is more a experts gun. More a craftsman's gun. Glock is just a tool.
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Old 03-29-2013, 18:29   #258
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If you want a better analogy, how about Mauser? How many companies make "Mausers" now? Probably more than make 1911's and they work fine.

I think that part of the problem with 1911's is that everything has to be just right. A few thousandths on a link, or foot, or locking lug, or slide stop shaft, or slide stop engagement, and it's FAIL. WhyTF are there so many different mag designs? Buy even the "same" mag a few years apart and the follower is completely different.

And as for staying true to the original design, which "original" design? The original design was changed several times by JMB and the DOD even from it's inception. So the "purist" arguement falls kind of flat. My gun is as original as any Singer, Colt etc right down to the parkerized finish and it doesn't work.
Making the 1911s tighter now than the old ones, tighter fit means stacking of tolerances matter more and the most important, fit during assembly. Labor was fairly cheap years ago so someone could spend some time fitting parts to ensure proper function. Now labor is the expensive part and parts are the cheaper items. The companies want to cut down on labor costs per gun as much as possible so they are limited to the amount of time they can spend on fitment. An expensive gun like a Les Bear, Wilson and etc can have more time put into fitment and ensure function. Thing is I still read of a fair share of Les Bear and Wilson 1911s that need to be sent back.

A gun like a Glock, M&P, XD and etc just does not have the complexity and is not made as tight. But they still put out some duds.

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Ha, wait until Glock makes a poly framed 1911!
California will adopt all of Arizona's gun laws before Glock makes a 1911.

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Old 03-29-2013, 22:40   #259
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California will adopt all of Arizona's gun laws before Glock makes a 1911.
NEver say never. Are you in AZ? I am going to be over to shoot the AZ IDPA state match 4/6. I doubt I win anything, but I will have fun.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:54   #260
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My smith just answered my email and said two things will cause premature slide lock activation, excessive recoil or the COAL being too long and the bullet hitting the tab. Since my COAL is 1.170", and the bullet is not close to the tab in a static condition, I doubt it is hitting the tab during recoil.

His answer was a lighter load. He is a bullseye shooter and doesn't see the reason to be shooting a 238 grain bullet at 830fps. He said the recoil spring for my load should be 16.5 but no more than 18.5 pounds. I'm ordering a couple of 18.5# springs and I'll see how it does with that.

I also am remembering that I didn't have this problem with the slightly lighter load I was using with the same bullet, so I'll pop in the smaller cavity on the measure and see how that does as well. I'm not going to shoot it until the new spring gets here because I don't want to batter the gun as I really have no idea what poundage the current spring is.
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